Looking for more information on DanZan Ryu JuJitsu

[Ceicei]

I wanted to take up Japanese JuJutsu, but couldn't find a good school nearby. I did find a different school not too far from me. I took the first class two weeks ago, and found it is a DanZan Ryu JuJitsu school.

I have talked a few months ago with other martial artists who train with Small Circle JuJutsu (SCJJ) and they say they train also with Danzan Ryu. However, I don't think SCJJ and DZRJ are the same. Maybe the ones I talked with combine the two in their training?

The DZR class I took remind me more of Judo (breakfalls, rolls, throws, and sweeps), but also have strikes/blocks too. I haven't seen any kicks or chokes yet. I've only had four hours so far, so it is still too early to tell. I am not sure how close DZR is to Judo (as I've trained for a few months with Judo last year).

My point with this thread is to locate those who train in Danzan Ryu JuJitsu so I could ask questions along the way. My instructor is really cool, and he appears to know his stuff well. At least he is able to explain things clearly.

- Ceicei

 

[Dragon Fist]

The founder of Danzan Ryu Ju-Jitsu was Prof. Henry Seishiro Okazaki. His system was developed using elements of Judo, Jujitsu, Okinawan Karate, Chinese Kung-Fu, Hawaiian Lua, Filipino knife fighting, boxing and wrestling.



I have had a chance to do some training with his youngest daughter Prof. Imi Okazaki-Mullins. She is probably in her 70's now but she can still throw a big man to the floor.

 

[Kempojujutsu]

Prof. Henry Seishiro Okazaki was Wally Jay's instructor. Here is a link for you to check out DZRJ.
DZRJ Link

 

[Makalakumu]

I currently cross train in DZR. I have about three years in the system. The practicioners I have met are highly skilled with joint locks, throws, and chokes. I would, however, supplement striking skills into this art. Throw out any questions you have and I'll do my best.

 

[Ceicei]

Prof. Henry Seishiro Okazaki was Wally Jay's instructor. Here is a link for you to check out DZRJ.
DZRJ Link

Wonderful link!!! Thank you so much! It is excellent in giving me background information.

- Ceicei

 

[Ceicei]

I currently cross train in DZR. I have about three years in the system. The practicioners I have met are highly skilled with joint locks, throws, and chokes. I would, however, supplement striking skills into this art. Throw out any questions you have and I'll do my best.

Alright.... Thank you.

Most of what I've learned makes sense to me so far. I do sometimes have to remind myself not to think of comparing certain moves of DZR with Kenpo during training. I remind myself to reserve the comparison for afterwards, when I go home from training and can settle down to think how both systems can work together. I find it easier to just go and do while training--basically bring a "I am ready to learn" mentality with me.

However, there is one attack in DZR I learned that puzzles me, and the defense against it.

The attack is a tight grip by the attacker against the fingertips of the defender.

The defense is bring the hand up, sort of folding it in, then a quick whipping move frees the hand and strikes the attacker's hand away. If the attacker's head is within the "angle of entry" (sorry for using the kenpo terms), the defender's hand can continue on with a heel palm strike to the attacker's chin.

I hope this makes sense to you what I am trying to describe. What is puzzling about me is the method of attacking doesn't seem very common. I can imagine, however, this could be an intimidation move by a male against a female. The method of defense does require that the hand be brought up quickly to do the whipping motion. If the attacker provides strong resistance, the defense does not seem to be quite practical.

Am I missing something here, perhaps a concept or a principle, that would make this workable? I have been told by my instructor that being completely relaxed is probably the most important key.

Thank you.

- Ceicei

 

[JAMJTX]

Danzan Ryu is a very strong art that is based largely on Judo.

Okazaki held a 3rd Dan in Judo, which back in those days was quite a tremendous accomplishment. He also trained in other arts as already mentioned. Also, Wally Jay was Okazaki's student for a long time. Also Prof. Jay's organization is still allied with the mainline DZR organizations. I know a number of people who train in both.

You will gradually be exposed to more of the system as you advance. But over time you will find DZR to be a very well rounded self defense art. You likely will learn basic kicking at least, as you will learn defenses against kicks. Just keep plugging away.

BTW, who are you training with? What organization?
Try this link for more DZR info: http://www.danzan.com/

 

[Makalakumu]

However, there is one attack in DZR I learned that puzzles me, and the defense against it.

The attack is a tight grip by the attacker against the fingertips of the defender.

The defense is bring the hand up, sort of folding it in, then a quick whipping move frees the hand and strikes the attacker's hand away. If the attacker's head is within the "angle of entry" (sorry for using the kenpo terms), the defender's hand can continue on with a heel palm strike to the attacker's chin.

I hope this makes sense to you what I am trying to describe. What is puzzling about me is the method of attacking doesn't seem very common. I can imagine, however, this could be an intimidation move by a male against a female. The method of defense does require that the hand be brought up quickly to do the whipping motion. If the attacker provides strong resistance, the defense does not seem to be quite practical.

Am I missing something here, perhaps a concept or a principle, that would make this workable? I have been told by my instructor that being completely relaxed is probably the most important key.

This technique is part of the Yawara list in DZR. We call it Yubi Tori Hazushi. There are many levels to this technique. The attack has been described by my teachers as a technique that a samurai would use to break the fingers of their opponent over their wrist armor.

The outer level of this kata is exactly as you describe. The inner levels deal with principle. When you start developing your variations for this technique, you'll be forced to think about this. The foot work is very important. The step back on the same side as the grab is the initial moment where power is taken away from the downward motion. This is done by arcing that motion out and away form the attackers body. By continuing the circle, the defender is continually reducing the attackers power until it is completely nuetralized. This is a very important concept for escapes and it is very applicable in a grappling situations.

Another thing you should notice is the way this technique feels like a wave. When you step back and begin the arc, you can feel your power increasing as your opponents power decreases. Your counter attack is the crashing of this wave.

I hope this helps a little.

upnorthkyosa

 

[arnisador]

It's a common technique in jujutsu--especially in Small Circle JuJitsu, for example--so I'm not surprised they came up with a defense for it! One wants to have a defense for one's own techniques. Is it common? Probably not, in the streets. But if you start doing jujutsu to someone, they may counter by trying to grab your hands that are grabbing them, so who knows?

 

[Makalakumu]

It's a common technique in jujutsu--especially in Small Circle JuJitsu, for example--so I'm not surprised they came up with a defense for it! One wants to have a defense for one's own techniques. Is it common? Probably not, in the streets. But if you start doing jujutsu to someone, they may counter by trying to grab your hands that are grabbing them, so who knows?

DZR people call all of their techniques kata. This, to me, implies bunkai. It is good to remember that the outer level of this technique is the equivolent of a low block. The wave/crash footwork and motion can make techniques like eekyo incredibly powerful.

 

[Ceicei]

Danzan Ryu is a very strong art that is based largely on Judo.

Okazaki held a 3rd Dan in Judo, which back in those days was quite a tremendous accomplishment. He also trained in other arts as already mentioned.

Thank you for the history bit about Prof. Okasazki. That explains the strong Judo relationship to DZR.

You will gradually be exposed to more of the system as you advance. But over time you will find DZR to be a very well rounded self defense art. You likely will learn basic kicking at least, as you will learn defenses against kicks. Just keep plugging away.

I am enjoying DZR. It will be exciting to learn more.

BTW, who are you training with? What organization?
Try this link for more DZR info: http://www.danzan.com/

It appears that my lineage is through Mr. Dennis Estes under Prof. Raymond Law, who trained under Prof. Okazaki. At least my instructor's instructor studied under Mr. Estes.

- Ceicei

 

[Ceicei]

This technique is part of the Yawara list in DZR. We call it Yubi Tori Hazushi. There are many levels to this technique. The attack has been described by my teachers as a technique that a samurai would use to break the fingers of their opponent over their wrist armor.

Interesting. Thank you for the origin to that attack. Is there a list explaining further what all those techniques are?

The outer level of this kata is exactly as you describe. The inner levels deal with principle. When you start developing your variations for this technique, you'll be forced to think about this. The foot work is very important. The step back on the same side as the grab is the initial moment where power is taken away from the downward motion. This is done by arcing that motion out and away form the attackers body. By continuing the circle, the defender is continually reducing the attackers power until it is completely nuetralized. This is a very important concept for escapes and it is very applicable in a grappling situations.

I think I am understanding what you are saying. You lost me, however, with the "outer level" and "inner levels". What do these mean?

Another thing you should notice is the way this technique feels like a wave. When you step back and begin the arc, you can feel your power increasing as your opponents power decreases. Your counter attack is the crashing of this wave.

Ummm. Interesting. Are you saying that DZR is a very circular martial art? I'll have to try that and see how it works.

I hope this helps a little.

upnorthkyosa

Thank you. You have been very helpful with your explanation.

- Ceicei

 

[Ceicei]

During my last class, we were practicing various types of breakfalls. I expected to be pretty sore afterwards, and I was. The soreness eventually went away; however, I found that I pulled muscles in my left shoulder (deltoid) and my left leg (adductor).

It made me wonder just exactly what did I do to cause that to happen to my left side. My instructor observed that I had been trying to look behind me and this is skewing my back breakfalls. I suspect it has more to do with side breakfalls, as falling on my left side didn't go too well. The right side, front breakfalls, and rolls (both forward and back) do not appear to give me much trouble.

Would the injuries be because of looking over the back when doing back breakfalls, or just simply that I wasn't relaxed enough doing side breakfalls? One of my partners observed that if the pull is bad enough, I might be "out of commission" anywhere from a few weeks up to a few months. I don't think my pulls are that severe, so I am pretty sure I will recover much sooner than that! I do not want to stop training when I just barely began DZR.

Any tips on doing back/side breakfalls better?

Thank you.

- Ceicei

 

[JAMJTX]

"It appears that my lineage is through Mr. Dennis Estes under Prof. Raymond Law, who trained under Prof. Okazaki. At least my instructor's instructor studied under Mr. Estes."

You are recieving excellent training. I had several oppertunities to train with Dennis Estes when he came to clinics in PA and NJ. http://www.jimmccoy.com/images/ajjf_sensei_2002.jpg

I have nothing but great things to say about him and his students. You can be assured that you are getting some of the finest Jujutsu instruction in the U.S.

 

[Ceicei]

You are recieving excellent training. I had several oppertunities to train with Dennis Estes when he came to clinics in PA and NJ. http://www.jimmccoy.com/images/ajjf_sensei_2002.jpg

I have nothing but great things to say about him and his students. You can be assured that you are getting some of the finest Jujutsu instruction in the U.S.

That's reassuring to know. Who are the people in the picture?

- Ceicei

 

[JAMJTX]

It is not possible to diagnose your breakfall problems here, but both explainations seem plausible.

If you hit the ground and tense up to much this can cause an injury. Also, proper positioning is essential, not only of the head/neck Your teacher is the best source fo rhelp here as he is the one watching you closely.

 

[Ceicei]

It is not possible to diagnose your breakfall problems here, but both explainations seem plausible.

If you hit the ground and tense up to much this can cause an injury. Also, proper positioning is essential, not only of the head/neck Your teacher is the best source fo rhelp here as he is the one watching you closely.

Not exactly asking for a diagnosis as I know you weren't there to see how I messed up. I was just wondering whether there are tips to make breakfalls easier so I could consult with my instructor and try these tips out. Sometimes different viewpoints may give a new perspective/solution to a problem.

- Ceicei

 

[Makalakumu]

Interesting. Thank you for the origin to that attack. Is there a list explaining further what all those techniques are?

I'm sure its written down somewhere, but I haven't seen it. My teachers told me that this was the origin of this kind of attack. It should be noted that the principles used in yubi tori hazushi can work against downward pushes and low thrusts.

I think I am understanding what you are saying. You lost me, however, with the "outer level" and "inner levels". What do these mean?

When one is shown a kata, the outer technique looks exactly like what is shown. Yubi Tori Hazushi, for instance, is an escape from a finger break. This is the outer level of this technique. The inner levels are the principles this technique teaches and how it applies to other situations. There can be countless inner levels. This distinction is not referring to a spatial inner/outer level of this technique. It is rhetorical.

Ummm. Interesting. Are you saying that DZR is a very circular martial art? I'll have to try that and see how it works.

Sometimes it is circular. Sometimes it is linear. It depends on what your looking at and where you are looking from. I wouldn't concern ones self too much with the distinction. I have found that many time the preconceived notions from one art do not transfer well to others and that generalizations such as these can lead to mistakes and misinterpretations.

In my opinion, when one is approaching a new art as an experienced martial artist, one initially wants to assume a "beginner's mind". This is a mindset that wiped clean old knowledge and open to new ideas and concepts. Here is to starting a new journey...

:asian:

upnorthkyosa

 

[Makalakumu]

Any tips on doing back/side breakfalls better?

Its hard to comment specifically without seeing them. Generally, I believe that if you break the motion down into pieces, learn each peice well, and start slow one will eventually get a good breakfall.

Once you have the peices of the technique down, speed it up gradually until you are able to do it full speed.

 

[Ceicei]

Its hard to comment specifically without seeing them. Generally, I believe that if you break the motion down into pieces, learn each peice well, and start slow one will eventually get a good breakfall.

Once you have the peices of the technique down, speed it up gradually until you are able to do it full speed.

Well, it is awfully hard to do a slow fall. Anybody know how to talk to gravity about slowing it down? Anyway, I've heard it said that the best fall is when you are completely off the ground . I :idunno: about that.

What my instructor is advising us to do is to fall from a "shorter" distance and then increase that distance. Maybe I am in too much of a hurry since I really want to learn this well. I also know I am not relaxed enough--it is kind of like a vicious cycle, I don't like to fall because of the possibility of getting hurt (since bad falls can make recovery longer), and not doing the falls properly is doing just that, getting myself hurt. <sigh> I do enjoy rolls though. They're fun! I need to remind myself again that time and patience are the best process in setting up the correct fundamentals and basics.

- Ceicei