Cross-training applies to much more than technique

[skribs]

I think the general consensus in the martial arts community is that cross-training is generally beneficial to having a more well-rounded set of martial arts skills. While maybe not necessary for a boxer to become a better boxer, it can help a boxer become an MMA fighter, or an MMA fighter fill out a skillset they don't already have.

For example, let's say John trained Muay Thai for 2 years. John might want to look to boxing to improve his punches, or Taekwondo to improve his kicks. John realize that they have different rules, which place specific limitations on the sparring that result in slightly different technique and application. But John also realizes that a boxer with 2 years of experience has probably thrown 10x the punches he has, or a Taekwondoist has probably thrown 5x the kicks, and so he can hyper-focus on that aspect of his training. Or, John might decide to train in Judo to take the next step from the clinch, or in BJJ to have some sense of what to do in the event he is taken down.

I believe this is the general opinion of people who promote cross-training. That you should cross-train to fill a gap in your technique, or to get a different version of a technique (i.e. Muay Thai kick vs. Taekwondo kick) so you can have more tools at your disposal to use at the right time, because there are times when the typical kick of each style is going to be the more correct call.

However, what I feel is often missing, is how cross-training can help you with perspective, mindset, and training methods.

Up until now, most of my experience in martial arts has been in the form of Taekwondo and Hapkido. I have recently switched to BJJ. There are two very clear things that have come out of this transition:

1. A respect and understanding for the BJJ training methodology, now that I have experienced at least a sliver of it.
2. An increased respect and confidence in in my TKD and HKD training, now that I have experienced other styles.

There are things that I like better about the way things are done in TKD, in HKD, and in BJJ. There are things I wasn't happy with. There are things that I think are more about the person in charge than the art itself.
I'll give a few examples of what I mean.

In BJJ, class typically involves a couple of moves-of-the-day, and a lot of sparring. You get your belt when the professor feels you've earned it. In Taekwondo, class typically involves a fairly rigid adherence to a curriculum of specific combinations and drills, which you will be tested on, which is when you get your next belt. It's largely about "have you memorized XYZ and gotten them up to a certain standard", which is something much more objective.

Personally, I wish that my TKD Master would have transitioned into more of a move-of-the-day at the advanced belts, or at least at black belt. It's a sentiment I've heard shared by many of the older black belts, that they want a deeper dive instead of just more stuff to learn. Similarly, I do wish that there were specific techniques we would consistently drill in the beginner class of BJJ. My experience has helped shaped how I plan to run my own classes in the future, where instead of just doing things the TKD way or the BJJ way, I want to transition from one to the other. And this has nothing to do with the techniques themselves, but rather the training methodology.

Another is the difference between how an art like Hapkido approaches self-defense, compared to something like BJJ. Or Krav Maga vs. MMA, or any sort of situation-based SD system vs. a sport-based one. A Hapkido instructor will get you to think about how quickly you can gain control of a situation. A BJJ instructor will get you to think about how reliably you can.

A HKD class will typically ask more high-level questions*, such as "What if there's a second person?" In a sport setting, this question is utterly irrelevant. In online discussions I've had with sport-only folks, they tend to assume that irrelevancy is universal, because if you can't train it for sport, you can't train it. But I feel these are valid questions to ask. I respect those who say "It's not something we teach here" and those who use a sport-minded approach to tackle these questions, but I don't like the common response that if your school includes something not applicable to MMA, then it's bad martial arts.

On the other hand, a BJJ class will typically ask questions that are more in-the-weeds. "What if my opponent has tight grip on my arm while I try to grab their leg?" The professor may then prove that it doesn't matter, show how to modify the technique, suggest another technique, or simply say that this wouldn't work if our opponent has that grip and we'd use another technique later. In the previous paragraph, I mentioned that the HKD question is sort of taboo in BJJ. The same applies here. These types of in-the-weeds questions were not really relevant to HKD. The idea behind HKD was to surprise your opponent by your initial response to their attack, and to maintain control through the entire technique sequence. If your opponent has time to respond, you've already failed.

*Note that when I say "high-level", I mean so in terms of how far zoomed in or out on the technique we are, and not in regards to how well the execution is.

I feel that a HKD guy who cross-trains in BJJ doesn't just learn the techniques of BJJ, but they learn the mindset to troubleshoot mid-fight. I feel that a BJJ guy who cross-trains in HKD would be exposed to new possible scenarios, and alternatives to fighting.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

In general, I'm not a fan of cross-training. I tend to believe that a person has a set amount of time to devote to training any martial art. Some people have more time, some have less, but let's say you have 6 hours a week you can give to training. You can give that time to one art or you can divide it between two arts. I feel that if I were to do so, I'd be learning both arts at half-speed.

You mention having quit training in one style to begin another. That solves the problem of splitting your time between two arts, but it does mean that you're no longer training in the first art. Do you feel you have learned all there is to learn in the style you quit, or are you just tired of it? Not attacking you, just curious.

As to how various arts inform one another, I'm sure there are synergies to be found. When we have occasionally tried techniques from another art in our dojo, it becomes obvious at a certain level that there are similarities even when the art is radically different. However, in other styles, there are many differences as well. For example, how we generate power versus how another art does the same thing. I have no doubt both work; but I don't want to split my training and try to master power generation another way at this point.

I hope I'm speaking to your points. I wasn't quite sure what you were getting at.

 

[skribs]

In general, I'm not a fan of cross-training. I tend to believe that a person has a set amount of time to devote to training any martial art. Some people have more time, some have less, but let's say you have 6 hours a week you can give to training. You can give that time to one art or you can divide it between two arts. I feel that if I were to do so, I'd be learning both arts at half-speed.

It depends on what art you're talking about. Taekwondo I found the sweet spot for most people is 3 days a week. If you go 2 days a week (typical expectation of a TKD school) it's usually either M-W or Tu-Th, at which point you have 5 days to forget everything. If you go 3 days a week, then usually your longest break is Friday to Monday, which is much less time to forget things than Wednesday to Monday.

Then, you practice as much as you remember at home so you can be ready for the next class.

With BJJ, you can't really practice at home, so you go as much as you can. But I find I'm often more sore after BJJ than I was after TKD. So 3 days a week of each means I'm hitting the sweet spot for memorizing the TKD curriculum, and maybe the sweet spot for recovery from BJJ.

Some schools will have different classes back-to-back. For example, my TKD school had a HKD class on Fridays or Saturdays (it was always once a week, but it changed back and forth which day). HKD was always after a TKD class. I was already there, so it was convenient. If you figure class time is travel + training + travel home + shower, then this is like taking a 2 hour commitment up to 3.

You mention having quit training in one style to begin another. That solves the problem of splitting your time between two arts, but it does mean that you're no longer training in the first art. Do you feel you have learned all there is to learn in the style you quit, or are you just tired of it? Not attacking you, just curious.

I quit TKD for a few reasons. One, I moved towns, so I had to leave the school I was in. Two, I was having problems with the Master, and felt I'd gone as far as I could with him. Even if I wasn't moving, I would likely have quit anyway.

For right now, even though I'm only officially training BJJ, I would consider it cross-training, because I have 13 years in TKD and only 6 months in BJJ. I do plan to go back to TKD at some point. I'm continuing to develop my TKD curriculum for when I open my own class.

With that said, I do believe if I were to move again and go to a town that had TKD, HKD, and BJJ, all else being equal I'd choose the BJJ school. The reason is that relative to BJJ, I have very little to learn about TKD or HKD. I've done TKD for 13 years under two different Masters, and HKD for 8 years under just the one. Most of what I would learn in those, especially TKD, is minor variations and the finest of details. In BJJ, I have to learn everything.

I hope I'm speaking to your points. I wasn't quite sure what you were getting at.

Mostly at the idea that TMAs and MMA kind of exist in separate bubbles, and it shouldn't be the case.

 

[Jared Traveler]

Skribs you are absolutely right! You are on the front end of a new path, and really a journey in the martial arts.

It is about far more than just technique. It's about experience in different gym cultures, values, promotion methods, different models of loyalty, and training methods. Among many other things I'm sure.

There's a whole world to discover there. Unfortunately the "traditional" model of martial arts gym culture, is to put pressure on students, sometimes threaten students, withhold from students, and or dingle carrots in front of students in an attempt to obtain gym loyalty. This is a whole other subject, but related!

My instructors who had my best interest at heart, never disparaged me for cross training. And have more loyalty for me than any one who tried to twist my arm and manipulate me into not cross training. I figured out in that context the loyalty was one-sided and self seeking.

One of the best things I ever did was break away from my original school.

 

[Flying Crane]

There's a whole world to discover there. Unfortunately the "traditional" model of martial arts gym culture, is to put pressure on students, sometimes threaten students, withhold from students, and or dingle carrots in front of students in an attempt to obtain gym loyalty. This is a whole other subject, but related!

This has not been my experience, but one’s mileage may vary.

 

[Jared Traveler]

This has not been my experience, but one’s mileage may vary.

I think one of the challenges is landing on the right school the first time. Just like your first girlfriend, you don't know what you don't know. The one you find first was probably looking for you more that you were looking for them.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

I've seen schools like what Jared's talking about. Never stayed once I figured out that's what they do.

 

[Flying Crane]

I think one of the challenges is landing on the right school the first time. Just like your first girlfriend, you don't know what you don't know. The one you find first was probably looking for you more that you were looking for them.

Well, all of the schools I’ve trained in have been traditional-minded, and what I mean by that is not focused on competition. I’ve certainly drifted and left some to train with others as my own experiences grew and I became better able to identify what interested me and what methodologies were or were not a good match for me. But I cannot say that any of my teachers were jealous over their students or withheld any information to coerce loyalty or threatened anyone. They have all been reasonable folks throughout (with one exception, and I believe that fellow is actually mentally ill) although each with their own faults and shortcomings as they are all human.

My current Sifu is an elderly Chinese immigrant who has something like 75 years in the martial arts. If anyone might be expected to fall into any such stereotypes, I suppose it would be him. But he has been nothing but generous with me in the instruction he has given me, and he has students who have been with him for over 50 years.

I am sure there are teachers who fit your description. But I also suspect they are less common than perhaps is generally assumed.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Well, all of the schools I’ve trained in have been traditional-minded, and what I mean by that is not focused on competition.

Traditional-minded and competition are not mutual exclusive. When one becomes a Chinese wrestling student, he has to promise 2 things.

He has to

1. compete in tournament.
2. pass down his knowledge to the next generation.

 

[Flying Crane]

Traditional-minded and competition are not mutual exclusive. When one becomes a Chinese wrestling student, he has to promise 2 things.

He has to

1. compete in tournament.
2. pass down his knowledge to the next generation.

Chinese wrestling is a competition-focused method. And that is fine.

 

[Steve]

I really like the OP. @skribs , it's been a real treat to hear about your insights and observations moving into BJJ.

One tangential thought I have is that cross training is terrific, but that there are other folks (like @JowGaWolf ) who are benefiting from exposure to other styles without specifically cross training. No real point, other than to acknowledge that there's benefit to cross pollenization and exposure to other styles and training models, even if training in that other style isn't for you.

 

[MetalBoar]

I really like the OP. @skribs , it's been a real treat to hear about your insights and observations moving into BJJ.

One tangential thought I have is that cross training is terrific, but that there are other folks (like @JowGaWolf ) who are benefiting from exposure to other styles without specifically cross training. No real point, other than to acknowledge that there's benefit to cross pollenization and exposure to other styles and training models, even if training in that other style isn't for you.

Yeah, I also liked skribs' post here and I think there's a lot of different aspects of this that can be examined.

There's cross training and then there's cross training. I'm way out of practice so I don't consider myself to be an Aikidoka nor a Hapkido practitioner anymore, but I've studied Aikido with at least 4 different schools for periods that were long enough to count and I studied Hapkido with one instructor for ~5 years. I've also been exposed, in a seminar kind of fashion, to at least a dozen other HKD schools. I feel that once I really "got" HKD, from a great instructor, in a class where we regularly trained stand up grappling (among other things) with real resistance, I was able to get a lot more out of my Aikido training.

Now, HKD and Aikido are very closely related. I feel like a lot of what skribs described could be true of experiences between different schools within the same style. I know that I got different things, in terms of training methodology, how and which techniques were emphasized, and to a lesser degree, the philosophy or concepts about the art, from all of the various HKD and Aikido schools that I've trained with. During most of that time period I considered myself to be doing HKD, even though sometimes I trained in an Aikido dojo. Was I cross training or doing something else?

I feel that this was generally beneficial for me. I also think it would have been fantastic if my HKD instructor hadn't closed his school and that I probably would have gotten more from sticking with him than going to the various Aikido schools that I attended later. A lot of that is because my HKD instructor was more skilled and had a greater breadth and depth of MA knowledge than any of my Aikido instructors. If he'd been only as skilled as the average Aikido instructor I trained with, I think the greater exposure to different approaches might have led to the superior result.

 

[MetalBoar]

Continuing with this topic...

There are a lot of different ways to look at cross training. Back when I studied Hapkido, my instructor (8th dan HKD) definitely very strongly believed that what he did and taught was Hapkido and nothing but Hapkido. He had a 3rd or 4th dan in TKD that I imagine influenced some of his HKD. He had trained in western boxing and I know it influenced his HKD. He had also studied something that seemed to be a lot like what I've seen of Xing Yi and I know it influenced his HKD. I know that when BJJ started to get a lot of mind share that he studied it and it influenced his thoughts on take down defense. So, he cross trained by most definitions, but he filtered it through a HKD lens and he made it HKD.

In some cases, like BJJ, he primarily studied it to see how his existing HKD skill set could best respond. In others, he used what he learned to deepen his understanding of how HKD could be applied and sometimes this led to changes in how he approached HKD. Power generation was a huge focus of his and he changed his approach based on his experience with other arts. He still considered what he did to be HKD, and not even a substyle of HKD, but just simply HKD.

Was that cross training in the MMA sense? Was is still HKD? Who gets to decide what is HKD and what isn’t? One of the largest international HKD associations, based in Korea, awarded him his 8th degree BB well after he’d made modifications to how he trained and taught HKD, so in that sense it is HKD, but not everyone might agree.