Tempted to take the introclass...

[Kframe]

Ok. In the Olympic thread, on page 20, Daniel Sullivan asked the question, if I had ever been into a TKD dojang. I ignored his question. Well the answere to that is no, I had not. So today, I went into the only TKD school in town that is worth the effort based on my research.(the rest are ATA) The first person to greet me, and ultimately talk to me was the head instructor and owner. A very nice man, in great shape. I explained my goals and a little of my background.

I was shocked to learn that not only was he a multi level TKD blackbelt(cant remember if it was 4th or 5th) but he was a Judo black belt as well. He also had experience with ground fighting and escapeing.(thanks to the judo background) We talked briefly about specific techniques such as the shoulder throw. His shoulder throw is different then what I have learned but no less valid. In fact I like his as it gives more control of the elbow to the thrower. We talked about my fitness goals and my martial goals, and my past experience.

He knew the background of the instructor of the first mma gym I went to, and thusly knows were some of my kicking issues are coming from.

Now here comes the part were I need advice. I have talked to my other coach, and he is ok with me cross training were ever I want. As is the TKD head instructor. He just feels that I may get to many conflicting messages when it comes to the striking aspect of what im doing. He specifically mentioned blocks, and for me that is a valid concern. As my new coach teaches us a very different style of blocking and deflecting incoming attacks then what TKD employs. For instance we don't block(deflect) kicks, at all... EVER. We only use our deflections on punches and other hand strikes. When we deflect we only use the flat of our forearms, utilizing both bones for more strength. From the videos I have seen, TKD does there deflections differently.

Since striking makes up only about 30% of class time, with standing and ground grappling and conditioning making up the rest I think I should be ok. Since I spend more time grappling in some form. Looking at what my coach teaches us for striking and striking defenses, I only foresee three problems. Firstly that is stance, my coach teaches a more squared up stance. Tho I have a side on boxing stance I learned from my boxing coach that im comfortable with. I think it can be modified to work in TKD.

The second problem I foresee is and this is a big one, and that is striking defense. More specifically the deflections. I don't want to sell my self short, so ill see if I can keep both styles separated. I have a feeling my coach will let me use the TKD deflections in class during our defensive drills. That's kinda the biggest problem I think. Tho I cant make a judgement now, I have to wait and practice and see how I react during practice and sparring at my current gym. If I look back, at my current skill set, boxing has a impressive number of defenses as well, and I have no problems using them with my deflections im learning at the gym. In fact they seam to complement each other PERFECTLY. Any thoughts on this? Does anyone else here know a few different ways to defend punches and how is your ability keep separate when practicing and blend when needed??

The last issue I see, and this will also likely annoy and confuse me, is the punching technique. TKD seams to throw there punches from a low stance, during practice, and from the shoulders when thrown from fight stance. I was trained to bring my shoulders up, and chin down and throw from up higher. When throwing my bicep is supposed to act like a bit of protection to my cheek and face when throwing a punch. Im not entirely sure how ill deal with this issue...

So, I appreciate any advice you guys have.

 

[WaterGal]

I do TKD and Hapkido. In HKD, we usually block open-handed, so you can redirect the strike into another technique. In TKD sparring, blocking open-handed is a good way to get your fingers broken, and grabbing is forbidden. Once in a while I'll slip up and go for a HKD block/redirect in TKD sparring, but usually I can keep them in separate "boxes" in my mind.

I think cross-training can be great, because different styles have different strengths and weaknesses and can compliment each other. Not sure how well boxing & TKD go together, though I used to train with a dude that had done a lot of boxing when he was younger. He always punched a little differently than the other students, and definitely focused more on the upper body than most TKD people I've sparred, but it wasn't a big deal. (He was a great guy, too, this makes me want to drop him a line and see how he's doing!)

 

[jezr74]

Kudos on stepping out and checking in at a dojang.

I'm interested to hear the replies you get.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk HD

 

[Kframe]

Thanks for the replies all. I have to put the kids to bed, so ill be back in a while. Would love to hear some more replies as well..

 

[Gorilla]

Keep an open mind...TKD kicks have a place in all types of fighting...if used properly in the right scenario!

 

[Kframe]

Its not really the kicks I have a issue with, im open to learning them. Tho honestly im not so sure about the super spincycle mid air stuff...Part of the reason im wanting to join is to improve my overall striking skill set by improving my ability to fight at range with and against kicks. For that is the area I get ate up the most in sparring, and who better to teach that...

Im mostly concerned about some other technical stuff. Like how do I marry the two different punching and deflecting styles I learn.. Water gal, your deflections sound like mine, we also use a open hand to deflect and control, so we can instigate a throw or lock.

What about the stance thing. This dojang is a KKW dojang, I honestly do not know what the "fight stance" is for KKW TKD in the traditional side of it. I know about the Olympic stance, but I have a feeling that is not the arts only fighting stance. I have been looking at youtube, but get way to many different styles, can anyone post a pic of what I should expect the KKW fight stance to look like?

 

[granfire]

you can always quit should you see that the style interferes with your chosen style.

(but being member ATA does not automatically make the other schools bad)

 

[chrispillertkd]

If you want to cross train that's great. I'd wait until you're pretty comfortable in the style you've already started, however, before branching out. Usually I'd suggest getting at least a 1st dan but since MMA usually doesn't give out ranks (that I'm aware of) I'd say apply yourself to your training for a good 2-3 years and become as proficient as possible before starting another style.

Pax,

Chris

 

[FrontKick-Jab-Punch]

It's for this reason exactly that I think MMA fighters are better off if they start out with a firm grounding in a particular style before going MMA. A framework helps. Thinking about taking a little bit o' this and that for crosstraining that you can't use parts of and will discard other parts of but keep some of sounds cognitively difficult for me (that is, I'd eff it up for sure and use the wrong block in the wrong class at the wrong time). But I'm no model of multitasking, so hopefully you'll do better at it than I would.

I agree with the other poster who said a) it's pretty cool that you walked in to check it out and b) meh - give it a shot. You can always quit if it's really derailing your training. True story. I'll tell you what, your kicks will improve a zillionfold with TKD instruction. Well, to be specific, your kicking speed and flexibility will improve. =)

I'll go ahead and be self-serving and say that if you could find a Chun Kuk Do studio in your area (Chuck Norris' remix of Tang Soo Do) you'd be happy with it. He incorporated an awful lot of MMA stuff but it's framework is still TSD, so you might really improve your kicking without disturbing the rest of your training as much. ; )

Good luck!

FKJP

 

[Kframe]

Chrispillartkd, thanks for your input. I thought about that as well, but the same problems im having now would exist then as well. The only thing that would change would be my grappling skills and my boxing skills. I don't see the issues that I foresee changing, IE punching style and the defense style. Those issues will be present. I am going to have to just play it by ear. I may find I have to choose one or the other.. Not a decision I want to make

Granfire, thanks for pointing out that not all ATA are bad schools. While talking to this instructor, he pointed out that the ATA schools in our town are sadly infact the typical Mcdojang schools. Handing out dan ranks to people who pay for them.

He has a three month intro period for new members, Im tempted to take it and see if it meshes. I feel this maybe the only way.

 

[Instructor]

You'll find that not every system is all that compatible with every other system. While each has merit they sometimes solve certain problems in different ways. Often they have a completely different philosophy for developing power and deflecting blows.

Where a lot of people run into trouble is when they try to marry two systems that focus on the same sphere of combat. For example trying to marry Judo and Tae Kwon Do is just fine because those arts focus on different spheres of combat but trying to marry say Wing Chun (just an example) and Tae Kwon Do is going to likely cause a lot of conflicts. Both of these systems focus on striking combat and yet they approach that sphere with very different philosophies. Each is a good system on its own but trying to blend them...well not sure what the point would be.

Glad you found a skilled Tae Kwon Do teacher. That style needs more good press.

I once tried a Kung Fu school (forgive me I only went once I don't remember exactly what kind of Kung Fu). I found that the Kung Fu really didn't work to well with the Tae Kwon do I had already learned. It worked a little better with my Hapkido but at the end of the day it was mostly punching and kicking and I felt like I already had those bases covered.

If you want to learn multiple styles, good on you. I would just caution that you should really try to develop skill in each before moving to the next. A green belt experience level in three styles is less valuable than a black belt experience level in one. I am happy to say that I have black belt experience in two styles and I am considering learning a third. But I've been at this for a couple of decades, it takes time to do it right.

 

[SahBumNimRush]

I think you've been given some wise advice here. Cross training in styles that blend well is a great idea, while trying to blend two very dissimilar styles is problematic. Cross training prior to having a solid base can be problematic, however, I think in your case it may still be worth trying. You already have a background in martial arts/boxing, and you have recognized weaknesses in your fighting technique. I say take the 3 month trial, see if it will work the way you want it to, the worst that can happen is that it doesn't help you the way you had hoped.

Good luck, and please keep us informed!

Personally, I had over 20 years experience in MDK TKD, prior to seriously cross training in other arts. I trained in for 4 years with a Shorei-ryu guy, which really helped me fill in the void in my training. I've trained with practitioners in many different styles (Bando, Pukulan Silat, Shorin Ryu, Hapkido, Shorei-ryu, Wing Chun, Shaolin Do, BJJ, Aikido, Judo, Shotokan, and KKW TKD), and I always walk away with a fresh perspective that has helped me in my own art and training. I think it all depends on how deeply you want to go with your training. I've taken some wing chun techniques/concepts through training with some practitioners of the art, and I've added it to my repertoire, mainly the close quarter defensive movements. I will openly admit that I have merely taken part of technique and concept, and I don't claim to know wing chun. However blending these few concepts/techniques that I have gleaned through working with those practitioners has helped me. It has helped me move my opponent, open them up, and I REALLY find it effective when knife sparring.

I find that "long range" and "mid range" I am well equipped with my TKD, but in close quarters, I tend to blend my TKD techniques with what I've learned from training with those in Shorei-ryu, hapkido and Wing Chun. I will also say that these training experiences were not in a formal class setting, but private training sessions where techniques/concepts were exchanged over a period of a few years.

 

[Kframe]

SahbumnimRush, Thank you for your input. I wanted to clarify my current styles striking system a little further. As it stands it is a fairly simple mix. We have blocks(deflections) but not in a great quantity. We do a middle block, a roof block a lower block and a outward extended block. (which is just a middle block taken further out, its used against haymakers) Those are the deflections taught to the new students with no prior experience. The deflections are down with the flat of the forearm, instead with a fist and with the side bone of the forearm. Now for me, my coach also runs through all the boxing defenses, which IMHO work with ANY style. Our strikes are out of boxing, with the exception of the two(yes two) kicks we are taught. The Front kick and the round kick.

Grappling in some form makes up the rest of class. My issue with punching comes not from the punches, but the shoulders. I was taught to keep my shoulders raised up, and my chin down when punching. That makes a barrier with my bicep portion of my arm to protect my cheek and chin. I can throw punches at any level from there, but they originate higher up. (hope im making sense) Now I learned this from the boxing gym I first attended, and it stuck. I tried today to punch with a relaxed shoulder. The results were interesting. I found that if I kept my shoulders relaxed, as I went to punch, my shoulders would instinctively raise up and cover my chin/cheek. Then when I retracted the punches, the shoulders would go back to rest. To further increase my confusion on this, my 64 year old friend at work(2x golden glove boxer, got me started and then sent me to his rival for training as he was not healthy enough to train me much) fought with a relaxed stance, and thusly thinks it is best.

The rest I can sort out, I don't see any of the stances becoming a issue, I already have a fighting stance(several), and I can find uses for the others. Im sure the front and rear stances and what not have uses I can exploit.

If I can sort out the shoulders, and deflections ill be golden. Then the issue becomes how high do I hold my hands.. Keep them were I have grown comfortable or modify my stance again. Maybe lower to upper chest level, or keep them high but push them out a bit? Only time will tell..

 

[Kframe]

He mentioned that black belt is the beginning, meaning I learned the basics. Starting at that level, all the indepth learning begins. The "sneaky stuff" as he playfully said. I must say I was honestly shocked by his having a BB In Judo, and having experience in ground grappling as well. (with a focus of getting off the ground and back to your feet, which is smart).

The other reason, and this is a HUGE reason for wanting to take TKD is my father. Me and my father had major issues growing up. Now we have come along way to repairing our relationship. I feel that this is one of the last things I need to do to help relate to a man I never bothered to get to know out side of a few stories and some basic lessons taught me. It was because of him that I gained a interest in TKD, and I feel that having this in common will help. Im hoping that with me doing it, I can convince him to start training again. He hasn't trained in many years. Yet, somehow its all still there, and heaven forbid you sneak up on him. I have watched him run through kata he has not done in 30 years yet based on videos I have seen, he did them perfectly.. The man is my hero, and I want to earn his respect..

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Ok. In the Olympic thread, on page 20, Daniel Sullivan asked the question, if I had ever been into a TKD dojang. I ignored his question.

I just assumed that it got missed in a twenty five page thread.

Well the answere to that is no, I had not. So today, I went into the only TKD school in town that is worth the effort based on my research.(the rest are ATA) The first person to greet me, and ultimately talk to me was the head instructor and owner. A very nice man, in great shape. I explained my goals and a little of my background.

The fact that you took the time to check it out speaks volumes of you. Even if you hadn't liked what you saw, at least you took the time to get first hand knowledge of the school. What style of taekwondo is the school?

I was shocked to learn that not only was he a multi level TKD blackbelt(cant remember if it was 4th or 5th) but he was a Judo black belt as well. He also had experience with ground fighting and escapeing.(thanks to the judo background) We talked briefly about specific techniques such as the shoulder throw. His shoulder throw is different then what I have learned but no less valid. In fact I like his as it gives more control of the elbow to the thrower. We talked about my fitness goals and my martial goals, and my past experience.

A lot of TKD instructors have varied backgrounds, even if they aren't high dans in the other arts. Frequently, hapkido is the companion art that they know, but quite a few have exposure to other arts, often outside of KMA. When I trained under GM Kim, he and one of the other TKD instructors also taught kendo, the other instructor being fifth dan.

In the years that I have practiced TKD, I've seen a lot of people start in the arts in TKD, branch off to do other things, and in the case of those who stay in the arts for life, often coming back, sometimes for good sometimes not.

He knew the background of the instructor of the first mma gym I went to, and thusly knows were some of my kicking issues are coming from.

Now here comes the part were I need advice. I have talked to my other coach, and he is ok with me cross training were ever I want. As is the TKD head instructor. He just feels that I may get to many conflicting messages when it comes to the striking aspect of what im doing. He specifically mentioned blocks, and for me that is a valid concern. As my new coach teaches us a very different style of blocking and deflecting incoming attacks then what TKD employs. For instance we don't block(deflect) kicks, at all... EVER. We only use our deflections on punches and other hand strikes. When we deflect we only use the flat of our forearms, utilizing both bones for more strength. From the videos I have seen, TKD does there deflections differently.

Since striking makes up only about 30% of class time, with standing and ground grappling and conditioning making up the rest I think I should be ok. Since I spend more time grappling in some form. Looking at what my coach teaches us for striking and striking defenses, I only foresee three problems. Firstly that is stance, my coach teaches a more squared up stance. Tho I have a side on boxing stance I learned from my boxing coach that im comfortable with. I think it can be modified to work in TKD.

Most taekwondo blocks use the palmok; the bottom side of the end of the forarm bone behind the wrist joint. This is not exclusive to taekwondo is common in some karate ryu as well (unsurprising, given taekwondo's origins). The idea of taekwondo blocks is that they are actually strikes to the attacking limb. I've learned the double bone style of blocking (at a taekwondo school in fact), and use it as well; it makes a nice addition to the toolbox. In hapkido, we blocked still another way.

Regarding stance, we learn and try to do correctly different stances in pumsae. In shihap kyorugi (what WTF sparring is based on), the stance used is similar to ap seogi (an upright front stance) with the legs somewhat profiled (about 45 degrees) and the lead leg is switched quite a bit through the course of the match. We try to be profiled enough to be able to utilize more powerful rear leg kicks and faster lead leg kicks, as well as to slim the target, but squared up enough to through meaningful punches and to keep rear leg kicking from being slowed down by waisted motion, as would be the case in a fully profiled stance.

Stand how you're comfortable in the setting and play around to see what works. My stance is different from kendo to taekwondo to western fencing, going from being completely squared and upright in a narrow stance to being partially squared with a wider stance to being completely profiled with the wider stance. I stand as is appropriate to the setting. Unless you're in pumsae competition, nobody is grading your stance aside from whether it is helping or hindering you when you fight.

The second problem I foresee is and this is a big one, and that is striking defense. More specifically the deflections. I don't want to sell my self short, so ill see if I can keep both styles separated. I have a feeling my coach will let me use the TKD deflections in class during our defensive drills. That's kinda the biggest problem I think. Tho I cant make a judgement now, I have to wait and practice and see how I react during practice and sparring at my current gym. If I look back, at my current skill set, boxing has a impressive number of defenses as well, and I have no problems using them with my deflections im learning at the gym. In fact they seam to complement each other PERFECTLY. Any thoughts on this? Does anyone else here know a few different ways to defend punches and how is your ability keep separate when practicing and blend when needed??

Personally, I would do the drills the way that the coach is running them. If you're attending both locations, do the drills as directed in each place. When you spar at the MMA gym, I assume that you are not restricted in the style of striking and parrying, so that would be the time to mix it up.

In general though, I prefer to do the drills as the instructor or coach is directing me.

The last issue I see, and this will also likely annoy and confuse me, is the punching technique. TKD seams to throw there punches from a low stance, during practice, and from the shoulders when thrown from fight stance. I was trained to bring my shoulders up, and chin down and throw from up higher. When throwing my bicep is supposed to act like a bit of protection to my cheek and face when throwing a punch. Im not entirely sure how ill deal with this issue...

A taekwondo reverse punch (dwit son jireugi) is thrown from waist level with a rotating fist, similar to what you would see in some karate ryu. Ahp son jireugi is a leading hand punch and would be thrown from a leading guard position. I'm not sure what you mean by throwing punches from a low stance, as TKD stances tend to be more upright and mobile. Even ap kubi (forward inflection stance) and juchum seogi (riding stance) are not exceptionally low, and are not stances from which one would fight, anymore than a sport fencer would fence from a lunge. I do see punching drills conducted in juchum seogi, and often see juchum seogi practiced in a low, almost squatting fashion. But one would not fight in this way.

WTF sparring does not really suited to jabs, hooks, or uppercuts, and the nature of the matches tends to lend itself to a more upright posture, so punching will by nature look very different than modern boxing. In WTF sparring, you do not need to worry about high line punches and need to guard against mid line kicks.

In short, adapt to the environment. If you're at an MMA gym, do what is appropriate when sparring. I don't know how diverse the people at your MMA gym are, but given the potential for varied backgrounds I'm sure that you make adjustments to your technique when fighting against an opponent who prefers to strike and stay more upright and when you face an opponent who wants to close and grapple.

Also, depending on what style of taekwondo the school is (I am assuming a Kukkiwon school, but if it is an ITF or a school that practices Chang Hon, the sparring style will probably differ considerably), the punching dynamic may be different.

As to how annoying or confusing it will be, that is a matter of being able to incorporate different techniques into your toolbox and use them at the appropriate time.

 

[Kframe]

Daniel, it is in fact a KKW school. I did not think the punching from the waste thing was something you would do during a real fight? I thought that was a training only thing, kinda like karate. I have a karate friend who trains like that, but in a fight is taught to punch from his guard(hands up near breast level.) Can you share more insight on this? It would seam like a lot of wasted movement to be in a real fight, and have to drop my hands from guard to the waist to punch.

I think the coach has a different stance and punching theory for the traditional students vs the sport guys.. He mentioned that WTF sparring is a big part of what they do, but only one style of sparring. They get free'er starting at black belt..

I think you are right, I shall practice only what is taught at each school. That should help a lot, in keeping things straight.

I plan on talking to the instructor over the phone tonight Hopefully I can get more information.

 

[Kframe]

Well I just got off the phone with the head instructor. We talked a lot more about my previous training and I told him about the places I trained. He wanted to know why I left the first MMA gym I attended and I told him story which he understands fully.(to long to get into here) We also talked about his training theory and methods.

He mentioned that he is big into exploring the hidden and not so obvious techniques inside of the Forms. Everything he does is centered around building the best martial artist one could be, not just competition. He has a day job and does not do this for the money. He does not tolerate attitudes in the Dojang, which is great, I don't think I could take more crap...

We discussed the blocks he teaches. He told me not to try and learn it online, for what is see TKD people doing on line is not what he teaches. He says his blocks are done long and exaggerated in training so that when used in a real situation you can throw them short and accurately with no wasted movement with the correct angle of approach. Secondly he says that the blocks are not infact blocks at all, but joint and limb destruction. Basically attacking the limb attacking you. Having this revealed to me, I now know I wont have any problems learning these techniques. For the deflections I learn at my mma gym operate to feed the limb into us so we can grab and control.

Out side of my current coach, he seams to be the most well trained person I have met. Having studied everything from boxing to kung fu and tai chi to judo and tkd. He asked me to come Monday to a free class, so ill go and write back and see how I feel.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Daniel, it is in fact a KKW school. I did not think the punching from the waste thing was something you would do during a real fight? I thought that was a training only thing, kinda like karate. I have a karate friend who trains like that, but in a fight is taught to punch from his guard(hands up near breast level.) Can you share more insight on this? It would seam like a lot of wasted movement to be in a real fight, and have to drop my hands from guard to the waist to punch.

It's pretty much the same in Kukki taekwondo. If you look at the Taegeuk pumsae, very few of the punches are thrown from waist level; mostly only in the opening when your hands are already at waist level. There are a few points scattered throughout the pumsae where chambering at the hip is done, but through most of the pumsae, you keep your hands up. In WTF sparring, the guard is generally kept low through the course of the fight due to conditions that are artificially imposed by the rules, though not chambered at the hip. During the course of a fight, one might find themselves throwing a punch from various positions depending on what is happening in the fight, but it would be foolish to adopt a squared up, chambered at the hip posture when facing an opponent intent on doing you harm. Like anything, it's a technique. Use it as is appropriate.

I think the coach has a different stance and punching theory for the traditional students vs the sport guys.. He mentioned that WTF sparring is a big part of what they do, but only one style of sparring. They get free'er starting at black belt.

That was my experience at the last two schools where I trained. The GM's logic was that it is harder to develope good kicks so he used WTF sparring for colored belts. After black belt, we did a variety of different kinds of sparring.

I think you are right, I shall practice only what is taught at each school. That should help a lot, in keeping things straight.

Aside from just keeping it straight, there is the factor of learning the lesson that the instructor is trying to teach and learning what the philosophy behind performing techniques in a specific way are. There is a reason that you deflect blows in hapkido differently than you do in taekwondo. Neither is inherently better, but each method has a different goal.

 

[Gorilla]

I have said it before! People who cross train tend to fail because they compare arts!

It fun for the forum but it's bad if you a are training! You have to keep the arts separate and not compare!

Frustration wil set in!

 

[ETinCYQX]

I have said it before! People who cross train tend to fail because they compare arts!

It fun for the forum but it's bad if you a are training! You have to keep the arts separate and not compare!

Frustration wil set in!

While this is a valid viewpoint and certainly is true for a lot of people I'm not so sure it's true for everyone. A lot of the difference in viewpoint here has to do with our respective levels in sport-you're involved at a high level where everything has to be cutting edge and perfect, where I'm at a level where everybody else is a banker or a lawyer or something who trains 3 days a week for fun .

In my opinion it tends to depend on how you learn. If you're a details person, yes it will most likely frustrate you. If you're a big picture type, like me, it likely won't. I had a couple of kickboxing guys in my tkd class for a while, they enjoyed it and found it a good complement rather than a conflict.

For Kframe, The other approach is harder and it sounds like the one you will take, so good for you. This is the one where you learn Taekwondo for the sake of Taekwondo, and let the light bulbs of "I can use this" come as they may. Black belt may be beginner but it does represent a good understanding of principles of the style, so if you stick around long enough to earn black belt you'll gain a new perspective on fighting and a pretty good understanding of why tkd guys do what they do. Im about to try the same thing with Muay Thai.