TKD and quality of teaching.

[Kframe]

Well Long time ago i posted here about how i was boxing and was thinking of going to TKD, just to be like my old man. Well that hasnt happend yet. Right now im at a MMA club and am learning alot. I stink on ice at the whole ground game thing but my stand up is improving by leaps and bounds as the months roll onward.

Now that my background info is out of the way, id state something i noticed and would l ike some feedback on. My coach and gym owner is a 2nd degree black belt as well as having training in boxing and BJJ. Recently with in the last few months we had a new student join us, whom was also a tkd black belt. BOth the new student and my coach are from WTF style and both have competed in WTF compititions.

Long story short, how can 2 people from the same organization be so vastly different? One is confident, skilled and it just shows. The newer member when we spar with him, if we get to close or the action starts getting very back and forthy, he turtles up and goes unagressive. Which is the polar opposite of my coach, who gives as well as he gets.

Im not trying to besmirch him, he started after me and has picked up the bjj grappling thing far better then i have, and in a grapple only spar, he will beat me. Its just how can i, with my decidedly short 8 months of boxing and mma manage to to stay on a even playing feild with him standing up? Ill say this tho, i hesitate at first when sparring him, cause he is very good with the front kicks and kicks in general and im having a hard time getting close to him.

I would think that being a black belt means atleast 4 years of training and sparring, i would have thought that he would mop the floor with me much like my coach can do blindfolded..

I will say this, i listen when he gives kicking advice, cuase man both he and my coach can kick, and i have learned much from them. Sadly i lack the flexability to do any kicks above the lower ribs and solar plexus area.. Tho im getting better at checking kicks.

So is this part of the reason TKD gets crapped on in mma forums and the like?

I hope some day i can find a good tkd school, for the time is coming that i would like to take it with my son or daughter. So they can be like gran dad. My dad has no respect for what i do, he thinks my stance leaves my body open(i wasnt standing real well that day either, i wasnt bladed enough and learnd my lesson on stance in sparring later) and i think my dads tkd stance leaves his head open. I just hope to one day finealy do something that he approves of.

 

[Cyriacus]

Its the same for any Martial Art. If its taught poorly, or mostly for competition, itll be either poor, or bound by being funneled toward a competitive theme.

General notes: You are always open in a stance. And if You immediately think of a stable stance that covers Your head and body, You havent had Your hand clubbed aside by a fist/hammerfist before

TKD gets crap due to preconceptions.

 

[Kframe]

Well, when it comes to my stance, when im doing it right i tend to have a good defense of both my head and my body. I position my hands closest to my cheeks, so i dont see punches swatting them aside. Infact i have yet to loose my hand position during a stricking exchange. Thats not to say it wont happen tho. I thought about the hands in a lower position like my dad and the tkd guys do, but it feels wrong. Like im leaving a valuable area exposed. Looking at my stance tho, i have stronger head protection and my body is my weakest area of protection but only by a little bit.

 

[Cyriacus]

Well, when it comes to my stance, when im doing it right i tend to have a good defense of both my head and my body. I position my hands closest to my cheeks, so i dont see punches swatting them aside. Infact i have yet to loose my hand position during a stricking exchange. Thats not to say it wont happen tho. I thought about the hands in a lower position like my dad and the tkd guys do, but it feels wrong. Like im leaving a valuable area exposed. Looking at my stance tho, i have stronger head protection and my body is my weakest area of protection but only by a little bit.

Have You ever been punched in Your covered head, and felt the force go through Your gloved hand regardless?

Also, thats a mostly competitive stance. In conjunction, it allows for plyometric movements, and it allows You to move around a bit easier, to evade instead of guard.
If You want another perspective, if You get into a fight in which You both square off and assume fighting stances to begin with, congrats on being lucky enough.

I suggest You stand up, casually, and experimentally throw a punch, arms starting in a casual unassuming position by Your sides. Its not that hard.
Additionally, You can hold a high guard in TKD if Youre so inclined. Youre not forced to avoid it.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I think you'll find some wtf clubs give out black belts in as little as 18 months while others can take 4-5 years, so quality of black belts from wtf clubs can vary greatly. This is probably why there is a big difference in skill level between the two guys. We get wtf guys come and join our club regularly, some are really impressive and some are very ordinary.

 

[Gorilla]

I think you'll find some wtf clubs give out black belts in as little as 18 months while others can take 4-5 years, so quality of black belts from wtf clubs can vary greatly. This is probably why there is a big difference in skill level between the two guys. We get wtf guys come and join our club regularly, some are really impressive and some are very ordinary.

Same with everything! Probably true of all orgs some fighters are good some are bad!

 

[ralphmcpherson]

Same with everything! Probably true of all orgs some fighters are good some are bad!

In some orgs though, you wont get promoted if you're "bad" (especially not to black belt).

 

[Gorilla]

In some orgs though, you wont get promoted if you're "bad" (especially not to black belt).

I will use a different word all organizations will have sub-standard BB no organization is perfect. including yours.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

I will use a different word all organizations will have sub-standard BB no organization is perfect. including yours.

certainly some black belts are better than others, yes. Sub standard black belts? I havent met one in our org, thats not talking up where I train, we just have a set standard for black belt and if you dont meet the criteria you dont pass. I know one guy who has tried 9 times to get his black belt.

 

[Earl Weiss]

BOth the new student and my coach are from WTF style and both have competed in WTF compititions.

Long story short, how can 2 people from the same organization be so vastly different? .

The answer to your question is self evident. 2 different people are 2 different people.

 

[Kframe]

Have You ever been punched in Your covered head, and felt the force go through Your gloved hand regardless?

Also, thats a mostly competitive stance. In conjunction, it allows for plyometric movements, and it allows You to move around a bit easier, to evade instead of guard.
If You want another perspective, if You get into a fight in which You both square off and assume fighting stances to begin with, congrats on being lucky enough.

I suggest You stand up, casually, and experimentally throw a punch, arms starting in a casual unassuming position by Your sides. Its not that hard.
Additionally, You can hold a high guard in TKD if Youre so inclined. Youre not forced to avoid it.

Cyriacus, i tried your punch experiment and indeed i was able to put some oomph bendhind it and was not lacking in power. My boxing coach had us throw our punchs from our high guard, with emphasis on not droping our hands. His reason was In the act of punching, your upperarm- biceparea and such- will be were your guarding hand was protecting your cheek from a incoming hook or straight. Tho i do agree that it makes some of my other movements a little slower when i need to do them. Such as grapple from the clinch. I guess its a trade off. I choose the high stance due to it reducing the amount of time and energy needed to activate my defense. Im my physical shape has improved leaps and bounds, not so much weight loss but strength and endurance gain, but still i need to find ways to conserve energy. This was the one way i found to do it. Less movement to activate a quality defense.

You are also correct in that, i have taken a few hits with my hands in guard, and i can feel quite a bit of the power behind them. Thankfully not enough to daze me, but my hands do provide a measure of protection, in addition to the movement i use during my block, which i hope dissapates some of their energy. (throw block while turning with the punch) I have wondered about the hard blocks in TKD and other asian arts, are they effective? Now i have seen our tkd member do a kind of downward sweeping hard block to deflect low middle attacks, but thats the only block i saw him use. I asked him about it, and he said his other blocks leave his head exposed and that he is not used to haveing his head attacked. In the videos i have seen some of the blocks look like they would be fairly decent in a fight, sure it would be a pro con kind of thing, as with everything. If they are effective, why arnt they used more in mma? Now i dont get to watch alot of mma, but i have seen lyoto machida use tma karate stances and such, but not so much on the blocks. Do the tma hard blocks actually work on street in a real fight?

As to the topic of suppar clubs and black belts my coach had a defineate opinion on that. He aggrees whole heartedly. Now our coach does infact award belts to people, but its not a time put in or money kinda thing, you gotta earn it, and earning a belt isnt easy. In fact in my 5 months at the gym i have seen 1 person get a yellow blet and one get a blue belt. Now sure its not tkd belts, but he has his own strict criteria for what each belt represents and the students have to earn it. First thing he told me when i started was you cant buy a belt here, and i would not have it any other way. I look forward to the day i earn my first belt.

I do know this, that when my son and duaghter are at the appropriate age, and maturity lvl, i intend to join a tkd club with them. I just have to figure out which are the best and worst in my area. I just wish it where easier to tell quality from crap. I did find one that had class times as little as 30 mins, which is not enough time to do much of anything, so that one is out lol.

 

[Kframe]

Figured id add this.

Cryiacus i wanted to add that you have made me think of my own stance. I think that i may be to rigid, keeping one stance at all ranges. I have seen from our experianced mma competeing guys a lower hand stance that is similar to the tkd stances i have seen from our 2 tkd members and online videos. I think that i need to relax at range, keeping my shoulders raised and my hands up can get tiring and achy after a while so maybe a relaxed stance when im at longer range is warrented. Its not like my hands would have far to travel to put up a guard at that range. Tho at close range my high and tight stance is good so ill defineatly be keeping it there. I thank you for making me think about my own stance.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Well Long time ago i posted here about how i was boxing and was thinking of going to TKD, just to be like my old man. Well that hasnt happend yet. Right now im at a MMA club and am learning alot. I stink on ice at the whole ground game thing but my stand up is improving by leaps and bounds as the months roll onward.

Now that my background info is out of the way, id state something i noticed and would l ike some feedback on. My coach and gym owner is a 2nd degree black belt as well as having training in boxing and BJJ. Recently with in the last few months we had a new student join us, whom was also a tkd black belt. BOth the new student and my coach are from WTF style and both have competed in WTF compititions.

Long story short, how can 2 people from the same organization be so vastly different? One is confident, skilled and it just shows. The newer member when we spar with him, if we get to close or the action starts getting very back and forthy, he turtles up and goes unagressive. Which is the polar opposite of my coach, who gives as well as he gets.

Organizations, generally, serve to set minimum standards for its members to follow. This doesn't mean some instructors aren't going to go above and beyond in what they expect from their students. Nor does it mean that people won't advance at different rates. Each person has different abilities so each person will advance in skill at different rates. Some people are naturally more aggressive and others are naturally more passive (or "defensive," but that's really something different, IMO).

Im not trying to besmirch him, he started after me and has picked up the bjj grappling thing far better then i have, and in a grapple only spar, he will beat me. Its just how can i, with my decidedly short 8 months of boxing and mma manage to to stay on a even playing feild with him standing up? Ill say this tho, i hesitate at first when sparring him, cause he is very good with the front kicks and kicks in general and im having a hard time getting close to him.

You've really provided your own example of what I was talking about. He's started training in MMA after you did but has made better progression in grappling than you have. But no one is asking how can that be when you belong not only to the same organization (I imagine) but the very same gym People are just different. The goal of the instructor is to educate them, provide them with good training, and get their skills to increase.

I would think that being a black belt means atleast 4 years of training and sparring, i would have thought that he would mop the floor with me much like my coach can do blindfolded..

Well, not always. Each organization sets different standards for its members. The Kukkiwon routinely promotes people to black belt after one years of training. This isn't to say that instructors aren't free to require more time before testing their students, of course, just that the certifying organization doesn't require it. That being the case, many instructors would think why should they require more training time than the standard set by their organization?

So is this part of the reason TKD gets crapped on in mma forums and the like?

In a word, yes.

The biggestest certfier of TKD black belts has a very low standard for promotion to first dan. That's not an insult, it's a fact. Instructors can have higher standards if they want to, but the Kukkiwon itself doesn't.

I hope some day i can find a good tkd school, for the time is coming that i would like to take it with my son or daughter. So they can be like gran dad. My dad has no respect for what i do, he thinks my stance leaves my body open(i wasnt standing real well that day either, i wasnt bladed enough and learnd my lesson on stance in sparring later) and i think my dads tkd stance leaves his head open. I just hope to one day finealy do something that he approves of.

Someone already pointed out that all stances will leave you open somewhere. It's a matter of adapting the stance (really, the defensive posture) to deal with whatever situation you face. Likewise, you will often see people purposefully dropping their guard or leaving a small opening for their opponent. This is to draw them into executing a specific attack which they can counter. In other words, it's laying a trap. You cause your opponent to react how you want them to (or at least make it more likely that they will). Regardless of what stance/defensive posture you take make sure you know ehere the openings are and how to effectively deal with attacks to those openings (even if they happen to be "illegal").

Pax,

Chris

 

[dancingalone]

Do the tma hard blocks actually work on street in a real fight?

It's a long discussion that has been repeated several times here on MT, but Okinawan karate 'blocks' are not blocks. No one is going to use uchi uke, age uke, or gedan barai singly in a real fight. No one that has trained beyond the simple "air karate line drill" paradigm anyway. Blocks in my kind of karate are generally strikes or entries or part of some other combination movement such as locking and throwing.

 

[Gorilla]

The answer to your question is self evident. 2 different people are 2 different people.

Agreed why is this so hard to understand...you are absolutely correct...it is very self evident unless you have an agenda!

To different martial artists...why would you judge an org on such a limited scope.

 

[chrispillertkd]

Agreed why is this so hard to understand...you are absolutely correct...it is very self evident unless you have an agenda!

Or unless you haven't really thought about it before. The impression I got from the OP was that Krillan isn't very experienced in MA's. Indeed, he posted here some months ago asking some pretty basic questions. His TKD experience largely comes via the training his father got a long time ago and his statement about wanting to do something that his father "finally approves of" makes me suspect that he's on the younger side of things.

To different martial artists...why would you judge an org on such a limited scope.

Because people make judgement calls on the information they have at hand. And, frankly, I didn't read it even as judging so much as asking a question. We can still do that on an internet forum, right?

Pax,

Chris

 

[outsider0506]

I would think that being a black belt means atleast 4 years of training and sparring, i would have thought that he would mop the floor with me much like my coach can do blindfolded..

I will say this, i listen when he gives kicking advice, cuase man both he and my coach can kick,...

What kind of sparring would a TKD black belt spend 4 years doing? MMA sparring?

A Kukkiwon/WTF TKD black belt is trained to sparring under WTF rules which primarily scores for kicks above the waist area; with no ground game and no fist to head contact, no grabbing, no blocking with your shins. You might change your opinion of this person's TKD skill level if you fought him under WTF rules and scoring.

If the person you're talking about was trained in TKD as a sport, he might be pretty good at playing the TKD sport game.

 

[Tez3]

The whole point of MMA is in it's name, it's mixed martial arts.... that means different techniques from different styles are melded together as seamlessly as possible, the TKD BB will be adjusting his techniques to suit his MMA game, it doesn't happen overnight and it's not automatic. He's not there to 'mop the floor' with fellow students he's there, as they are to learn, as a BB he will know this and will be developing his style rather than worrying about whether he can beat other students at sparring at this point. His TKD will be a big advantage as he progresses, a good many MMA fighters have a TKD background. I wouldn't worry about what he's doing rather concentrate on your own practice.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I'll put this another way. forget about orgs, and bring it down to a smaller scale.
Lots of instructers on this board. How many of us would like to have the quality of our instruction judged by having someone watch our worst student, even on their best day?

 

[bugatabugata]

I agree that not all black belts are created equal. That's true of all belt levels, MA styles and organizations. People simply have a different baseline for fitness/coordination/ability to pick up on new techniques, and progress from there.

There's another thread that I remember seeing on here about "What does the black belt mean." One of the chief tenets of tkd is indomitable spirit, which in this context means (at least to me) that if someone keeps coming to practice and giving it their all, I have no problem with seeing them get promoted through the ranks, even if they're somewhat lacking in physical ability. (If, on the other hand, someone shows up once in a blue moon and half-asses it, then expects to get promoted, because they're paying dues...) We have an older lady in the dojang, who comes to practice religiously, mentors the lower belts/kids, and busts her behind in practice -- she might not be as flexible as some of the others and her kicks might not be as high, but she's more of a black belt to me than a lot of people half her age that I've seen.