WTF Taeguk question from a outsider.

[Kframe]

Ok, as most know im a outsider when it comes to TKD. Some day i plan on rectifying that, when i can afford (both time and money wise) to do both my combatives and TKD. So i was on youtube watching some WTF forms, Taeguk 5-8. Ok since i do kickboxing with some kenpo karate and jujitsu as my martial art(mma lol) i had a application question regarding Taeguk 5(i think it was 5).

Part way during taeguk 5 they have the practitioner doing a highblock(upper block as my coach calls it) then immediately doing a high side kick to the head. The upper block is mostly used on punches, at least thats how we practice it. Im having a hard time figuring out how i would block the punch then immediately do a high side kick to the head. The problem lies in the range. If your attacker is in range to punch you and you sucsessfully deflect it upwards, he will be to close to do that high side kick to the head. Here is the video i was watching.

Now i cant lead leg side kick that high yet, so maybe its my own hang up with it thats irking me. Can that move be sucsessfully employed in punching range as is demonstrated by the form? For me im having a hard time seeing it only becuase of the close range of the encounter.

 

[Dirty Dog]

The taegeuks are not intended to be choreographed fights. It's really that simple.

 

[Jaeimseu]

Another possibility is that the opponent moves back as the kicker turns, putting them into range. Moving back is a pretty common reaction to a kick.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Well, they'd have to move backwards from the high block, but it's still possible. Especially if we start getting into bunkai and theorise that it's not actually a high block (although it's labeled as olgulmakki [high block] by the kukkiwon people who developed the form...) but is actually an upwards forearm strike. If I were doing such a strike, it would be brought up under the chin and would look pretty much like a high block.

 

[Matt.A]

It may not be a punch that was being blocked. How about a bostaff (downaward ax attack) that is being blocked.

 

[Kframe]

So the taeguk forms are not like karate kata in that they are simulated fights with a similar sized attacker? They certainly look to my untrained eye to be modeled after karate forms and that is typically how karate forms are interprated.(to my understanding) So if there not "kata fights" as some other MA have them, what are they then? They dont seem very random, so there must be some rhyme and reason to the order of the moves in the forms. Some of the movements i see in them make sense, some not so much, like why in a later form they kept repeating what in kenpo is the universal block. Here is the universal block, i see a similar movement repeated over and over again, that makes little sense. Unless of course the taeguks are not as you say, "kata fights" but merely a bunch of moves assembled to at least make a little bit of sense..

I thought the purpose of forms was to teach movement as well reinforcing attacks and deflections in a somewhat coherent manner?

 

[Kframe]

Here is a video showing the univerisal block in a application called swining pendulum. Notice the movement up the circle past the apex of the round kick.

 

[dancingalone]

The taegeuks are not intended to be choreographed fights. It's really that simple.

Winner, winner, chicken dinner.

Cue someone jumping in and saying "But..."

 

[Dirty Dog]

So the taeguk forms are not like karate kata in that they are simulated fights with a similar sized attacker? They certainly look to my untrained eye to be modeled after karate forms and that is typically how karate forms are interprated.(to my understanding) So if there not "kata fights" as some other MA have them, what are they then? They dont seem very random, so there must be some rhyme and reason to the order of the moves in the forms. Some of the movements i see in them make sense, some not so much, like why in a later form they kept repeating what in kenpo is the universal block. Here is the universal block, i see a similar movement repeated over and over again, that makes little sense. Unless of course the taeguks are not as you say, "kata fights" but merely a bunch of moves assembled to at least make a little bit of sense..

I thought the purpose of forms was to teach movement as well reinforcing attacks and deflections in a somewhat coherent manner?

They teach movement. They teach technique. They teach balance. They're symbolic of the philosophy of Taekwondo.

They teach lots of things, and while some of the combinations have direct application in self defense, not all of them do, and the combinations were not picked based on self defense applicability.

 

[Tez3]

So the taeguk forms are not like karate kata in that they are simulated fights with a similar sized attacker? They certainly look to my untrained eye to be modeled after karate forms and that is typically how karate forms are interprated.(to my understanding) So if there not "kata fights" as some other MA have them, what are they then? They dont seem very random, so there must be some rhyme and reason to the order of the moves in the forms. Some of the movements i see in them make sense, some not so much, like why in a later form they kept repeating what in kenpo is the universal block. Here is the universal block, i see a similar movement repeated over and over again, that makes little sense. Unless of course the taeguks are not as you say, "kata fights" but merely a bunch of moves assembled to at least make a little bit of sense..

I thought the purpose of forms was to teach movement as well reinforcing attacks and deflections in a somewhat coherent manner?

Karate kata aren't simulated fights, they are a learning tool. I don't know any style that uses kata/patterns/forms as a 'fight. Each individual movement has a use, you don't you them as a sequence in fighting.

http://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/what-are-true-applications-kata

this is a good series of articles equally applicable to TKD http://iainabernethy.co.uk/article/basics-bunkai-part-1

 

[Earl Weiss]

So the taeguk forms are not like karate kata in that they are simulated fights with a similar sized attacker? QUOTE]

Can you please provide a link to a Karate Kata you fees sia "Simulated Fight". That will give us a beter idea of what you are comparing it to.

 

[Kframe]

A long time ago, in a galaxy far away, i did shorin ryu karate. Tho tbh i dont know if i was getting quality instruction or if i misinterprated what he was saying. That is were i was tuaght that kata is a simulated fight with a similar sized attacker.

 

[Tez3]

A long time ago, in a galaxy far away, i did shorin ryu karate. Tho tbh i dont know if i was getting quality instruction or if i misinterprated what he was saying. That is were i was tuaght that kata is a simulated fight with a similar sized attacker.

I can't tell but I do know that kata isn't taught as a fighting system in itself. This is how many teach the Bunkai http://iainabernethy.co.uk/content/wanshu-enpi-bunkai-video

Some don't teach Bunkai or at least not in that way but I don't know anyone that teaches kata as how you should fight someone beginning to end, it simply wasn't designed to do that nor would it work.

 

[Kframe]

So what would the bunkai for the particular move in question be? (turn highblock, lead leg side kick to head.)

Tez I will read your link, hopefully it will shed some light on this.

 

[Tez3]

So what would the bunkai for the particular move in question be? (turn highblock, lead leg side kick to head.)

Tez I will read your link, hopefully it will shed some light on this.

That's the makings of a good discusson! Hopefuly people will chime in here. What do you think it is?

Iain Abernethy is one of the world's leading exponents of Bunkai and 'pragmatic' martial arts. He has a lot of interesting articles in his site and he's always open to ideas and discussion.

 

[Kframe]

Well, I dont think its a weapon like a staff, becuase your not going to high block the staff. That would break your arm.. Maybe he was deflecting some kind of front kick aimed high, maybe a front snap or a teep. The deflection it self would be ok, becuase not only is he impacting with both bones of the arm, but also on the fleshy area underneath of the shin. So if that is the case, the kick is deflected up, and you can effect the side kick to the head, becuase you are in his kicking range, you are also in yours.. Hmm does that make sense? Im trying to think on this..

Edit to add. I dont think this is a punch defense at all. I think that it must be some kind of longer ranged attack. If you high blocked a punch, then trapped the arm and pulled down(the chamber) they would be way to close for a high side kick...

 

[StudentCarl]

Not an exact parallel, but high block and trap the arm/rear leg side kick to knee (much more rational height for defense)/hammerfist, backfist, knifehand to head or neck would be reasonable.

In the Taegeuk forms one is encouraged to kick high, arguably to develop technique, flexibility, and balance. If you cross into the world of bunkai (see Mr. Abernethy's book for principles), what appears in form as a high kick does not necessarily go to that height in application. Blocking high and trapping then kicking low is a very effective level change in close, with the damage potentially made worse by the trap keeping that front leg loaded with weight.

 

[jks9199]

How about an axe kick or similar line for a kick?

 

[troubleenuf]

When we were switching over to the TaeGueks a couple of years ago we were working with a couple who are into the international competition area and I asked them the theory behind some of the moves. Their response: "There is no theory in the TaeGueks" I believe its one of the things that makes me wonder why we switched to them. While they do teach things they also teach some what I would consider pretty poor and improper movements.

 

[Dirty Dog]

There's more philosophy behind the taegeuks than theory. Each is intended to follow the line of the appropriate gwae (trigram) and you're supposed to meditate on the meanings of that gwae.