Bill Wallace Fighting Style in WTF TKD Tournaments

[Kwan Jang]

ATC, nice bit of "anti-grappling propaganda" ther often thrown out there by the ignorant about grappling. A skilled grappler does not need the cage for takedowns especially against someone who is not in their league at defending takedowns. On the major grappling circuits, NAGA, ADCC, Grappler's Quest, FILA, there is no cage and just try using a "simple body turn (parry)" to prevent a takedown from anyone out of the novice division (less than 6 mos. training) and I would honestly doubt your odds against someone in that division too, especially given your statements. Now among well trained grapplers and MMA fighters who train using the cage as a tool and can counter sprawls, ect.

How many Judoka and wrestlers rely on a cage to take someone down? In grappling and MMA you see quite a few fighters with elite level backgrounds in these sports. I have both trained with and fought against former Olympic team members in both sports in NAGA events, though BJJ is the dominant system or base for most (though my base is JJJ and Judo). BTW, did Randy Couture rely on the cage to take James Toney down with a double leg? Guess he would have done it just as eaily on a football field. And while not a cage, you might want to include obstacles and confined quarters in your SD training as well.

I am not some outsider or MMA wannabe taking uneducated potshots at TKD, I myself am a 6th dan and testing for 7th next year. My instructor was the bronze medalist at the '77 WTF TKD world championships. His instructor (who I did some of my early training with) GM Dan Kyu Choi was the coach of the USA team for that world championship. KJN Ernie is currently a VP for the US TKD Committee. Among my long time classmates (and Seniors) Dianne Murray was the silver medalist at the '92 Olympics. Greg Fears was a two-time silver medal winner at the world championships. (P, these should be a bit easier for you to verify since record keeping is probably more accurate on these FAR more important events).

I defend the valid points and strengths of TKD as an art and fighting system to the potshots that many MMA, BJJ and Submission Grapplers take and also don't mind pointing out the holes in those systems and sports as well. I just don't believe TKD as a system will ever evolve into the next level if the objective is to bury one's head in the sand. There are many who are satisfied with the status quoa and that is fine for them. Hey, it' IS the most popular MA in the world and the sport is still in the Olympics.

 

[ATC]

ATC, nice bit of "anti-grappling propaganda" ther often thrown out there by the ignorant about grappling. A skilled grappler does not need the cage for takedowns especially against someone who is not in their league at defending takedowns. On the major grappling circuits, NAGA, ADCC, Grappler's Quest, FILA, there is no cage and just try using a "simple body turn (parry)" to prevent a takedown from anyone out of the novice division (less than 6 mos. training) and I would honestly doubt your odds against someone in that division too, especially given your statements. Now among well trained grapplers and MMA fighters who train using the cage as a tool and can counter sprawls, ect.

How many Judoka and wrestlers rely on a cage to take someone down? In grappling and MMA you see quite a few fighters with elite level backgrounds in these sports. I have both trained with and fought against former Olympic team members in both sports in NAGA events, though BJJ is the dominant system or base for most (though my base is JJJ and Judo). BTW, did Randy Couture rely on the cage to take James Toney down with a double leg? Guess he would have done it just as eaily on a football field. And while not a cage, you might want to include obstacles and confined quarters in your SD training as well.

I am not some outsider or MMA wannabe taking uneducated potshots at TKD, I myself am a 6th dan and testing for 7th next year. My instructor was the bronze medalist at the '77 WTF TKD world championships. His instructor (who I did some of my early training with) GM Dan Kyu Choi was the coach of the USA team for that world championship. KJN Ernie is currently a VP for the US TKD Committee. Among my long time classmates (and Seniors) Dianne Murray was the silver medalist at the '92 Olympics. Greg Fears was a two-time silver medal winner at the world championships. (P, these should be a bit easier for you to verify since record keeping is probably more accurate on these FAR more important events).

I defend the valid points and strengths of TKD as an art and fighting system to the potshots that many MMA, BJJ and Submission Grapplers take and also don't mind pointing out the holes in those systems and sports as well. I just don't believe TKD as a system will ever evolve into the next level if the objective is to bury one's head in the sand. There are many who are satisfied with the status quoa and that is fine for them. Hey, it' IS the most popular MA in the world and the sport is still in the Olympics.

All good and fair statements that you made. Remember I was only debating the statement of MMA being close or closest to real combat, it is only a walking stance closer if even that much.

 

[Gorilla]

I am a big fan of all Martial Arts!

I am not a big fan of saying one is better that the other!

They all have their merits/opportunities!

From the sport aspect they all have different rules and objectives.

In Las Vegas were we live we have had allot of opportunity to train along side many MMA fighters.

All the athletes had a mutual respect for the hard work and skill needed to be great at both!!!

 

[MJS]

Guys,

We're drifting a bit from the OP here. If you'd like, I'd be happy to split the MMA discussion to its own thread, but otherwise, lets try to get back to the original topic.

Thanks.

 

[puunui]

UC Berkley 1981:red belt heavyweight 16-17. IIRC Ken Min and Jerome Ritchenbauch (not sure if that is the correct spelling) were the promoters. I probably still have the medal somewhere. I don't know about your magazine (if it exists), but I do know that I fought there and took gold. Also, the '81 nationals held at UC Berkley, I took 4th in the adult welterweight division (red belt), I believe the division was won by Marc Williams (an older team mate of mine) who fought in the '81 Goodwill games between USA and Mexico in the BB division despite him being a red belt.

1981 JOs was held at the Nicosan Hall Fieldhouse at Indiana Central University; 1981 Senior Nationals was held at the Sun Dome at the University of South Florida (Tampa); neither was held at UC Berkeley. And the magazine exists. If you were a registered member of the AAU program back then you would have received a complementary copy. I do believe that you fought at some tournaments in 1981 but you are somehow under the mistaken impression that it was AAU JOs and Nationals.

 

[puunui]

Among my long time classmates (and Seniors) Dianne Murray was the silver medalist at the '92 Olympics. Greg Fears was a two-time silver medal winner at the world championships. (P, these should be a bit easier for you to verify since record keeping is probably more accurate on these FAR more important events).

Those competitors' records are easily verifiable; yours is not, mainly because the tournaments that you competed at in 1981 using Bill Wallace's style wasn't JOs or Nationals.

 

[puunui]

TKD is my traditional base and my roots. I consider TKD as a beautiful art with the most versatile kicking system out there. The sport of WTF TKD was also a sport that I played as a child and when I mostly had a choice between it and point sparring, it was my preferrence. However, when I outgrew childhood, I put aside childish things and evolved further (OK, I admit that at least in part, I am mostly taking a dig at someone who appears to be a hardcore TKD traditionalist that is making some rude and false insinuations, but the sting in my dig is there is an element of truth to it).

"hardcore TKD traditionalist" -- are you referring to me? No one ever called me that before. But tell you what, I will mail you a copy of the magazine's articles on 1981 JOs and Nationals, with the results and then you can determine who is making the rude and false insinuations, and whether an apology is in order. I can understand how you feel, believing something for 30 years only to learn that you may have been mistaken all these years.

 

[Kwan Jang]

I looked up the Senior Nationals that I fought in at UC Berkley on the USA TKD site and it was 1980, not '81. Also my team mate, Marc Williams ended up second, not first in that one. So at least on that one, I stand corrected on dates, though not in my competition. If I can find more info on the JO, I will. I do know that it was the very first Junior Olympics in TKD, was that "80 or '81? The sponsors was Sears and I always thought it was cheesy that they had "Sears" printed on the medal and the certificates. IF I have my dates/years mixed up (based on the fact that I was off on the year for the Nat'ls and if my senile brain recalls correctly, they were the same year), you might not be the Troll I thought you to be and I might not be as delusional as you believe. (P.S.-It's a lot easier to track down my more recent grappling stuff since it is all online. So far, I am having trouble finding anything regarding the TKD JO's earlier than 1982).

 

[Kwan Jang]

I'm going to bed after this (this bugged me and I stayed up way past my bedtime), but I looked up the promoter, GM Jerome Reitenbach's website and the tournament that I took gold at is listed as the 1981 AAU/USA Junior Olympic Tae Kwon Do Championship. If that is not "THE" JO, I stand corrected, but that is how it was presented to us and he was a USTU VP and along with Dr. Ken Min (they pretty much co-promoted almost all of their events), the top guys as far as TKD promoters on the West Coast at the time. I also remember that there were teams from several other countries and he was really upset about how the USA flag was carried in by our team as "Not honoring the USA" properly. On his website, there are no results from the tournament, but it is listed as one that he promoted between 1981-1984.