Kukkiwon – do we really need it?

[terryl965]

The KKW processed nearly 230,000 black belt application last year at $70.00 a piece they would have made $16,100,000. That does not includes seconds and up, so yes the KKW is making money and it is supporting the South Korean government most likely. I guess I do not understand why does this matter and what point are you trying o make?

 

[Markku P]

This is from International Judo federation's web-site. Why can't Taekwondo follow same kind of system?

/Markku P.

________________________________________________________________________________

24.1 Official recognition of grades

The IJF officially recognizes only those grades and “dan” ranks which are awarded by the Member National Federations to their own members, to the exclusion of all others.

A National Federation may not award a grade and/or a “dan” rank to a member of another Member National Federation without the written agreement of that Federation. Any grade or “dan” rank awarded without this agreement will not be validated by the IJF.
Each Member National Federation is in charge of representing the IJF for the purpose of ensuring compliance with International regulations on grades and “dan” ranks throughout its national territory.

24.2 Grade diplomas
IJF grades and “dan” ranks shall be awarded by the President of the Continental Union where the student originates from.

24.3 Amount of Fees
The amount of fees paid for awarding of grade and “dan” diplomas and for ID Cards shall be set by the EC.

24.4 Application procedure
The awarding of IJF grades and “dan” ranks shall be performed according to the procedure validated by the EC.
From the 1st to the 6th “Dan”, ranks shall be awarded under the responsibility of Member National Federations.
The 7th “Dan” shall be awarded upon the proposal of Member National Federations by the Executive Committees of the Continental Unions, after the opinion of the Continental Grade and “Dan” Rank Director is given.

As of the 8th “Dan”, Ranks shall be awarded by the EC upon the proposal of Member National Federations and after the opinion of the Continental Unions has been given, as well as the opinion of the Grade and “Dan” Rank Commission of the IJF.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I haven't hid my feelings on the KKW (and other orgs), so no need to rehash it. I will say that the price they charge for a first Dan is extremely high. The paper costs around a buck. I know this because I can and have gotten the same type of paper for that price, even larger certs. But let's be generous and triple it to $3 and then let's really go overboard and say another $3 for data entry and $10 shipping. Now add another $3 for the I.D. card (which it isn't as I've done it for pennies). So that's $19 for a piece of paper and an I.D. for which they charge $70. That is quite a profit and doesn't take into account what a school might charge for themselves on top of that.

But okay, that's all fine and some may wish to pay that. So here's the question, why charge more for the second Dan? And the third and so forth? Does the paper the second is printed on cost more? And the paper the third is printed on even more than the second? Why not charge less and less to say thank you for your loyalty to the art and the organization? That's a rhetorical question, I fully understand why they do what they do.

 

[miguksaram]

It's quite a big deal when there is thousands of people who will pay 70-500USD every year to Korea and we don't really know what happens all the money.

Ok, as this thread is just going to end up like the other several threads that have been written about the same topic let's just cut to the chase. The KKW is an government organization and business which certifies you in the art of Taekwondo. If you wish to be certified, it will cost you 'X' amount of money. What they do with that money, bottom line, is really none of our business. If you go to a vocational school and get certified in HVAC do you sit there and question the board of directors what they are doing with your money? Who cares. Keep in mind you are one individual sending in $70 bucks for a piece of paper. While I'm sure they appreciate your loyalty to the art, I doubt they are going to bend over backwards to accommodate your every whim because of it. If you don't want the cert, then don't get it.

From the situation you described of getting government money for your school, as long as you are certified, it sounds to me like a "wanting your cake and eating it too scenario". You want this money, as I'm sure it helps you financially, but you don't want to spend that money to keep yourself certified through KKW. So either the government is not giving you enough to substantiate your overall cost of being affiliated with the KKW, which begs the question of why bother at all? Or you just want more money for yourself.

As for the argument of bring it under the WTF, people forget that the WTF while a separate entity, is part of the KKW. The only thing they do is handle sports. They do nothing to help progress the art itself. That is what KKW does. So I am just failing to see what answers you are really looking for in all of this.

But okay, that's all fine and some may wish to pay that. So here's the question, why charge more for the second Dan? And the third and so forth? Does the paper the second is printed on cost more?

I know you said this was rhetorical but if you follow your line of logic, a master's degree and doctrine's degree in education should cost me the same amount as my bachelor's degree. So why are they more expensive? Shouldn't I be rewarded for being loyal to the subject?

 

[d1jinx]

....

+1


why does everyone think everything should be free or handouts or "AT COST"???? once again, dont like it, DONT PARTICIPATE! If YOUR country requires it then TAKE IT UP WITH THEM to create thier OWN National org and recycle the money within your country.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

I know you said this was rhetorical but if you follow your line of logic, a master's degree and doctrine's degree in education should cost me the same amount as my bachelor's degree. So why are they more expensive? Shouldn't I be rewarded for being loyal to the subject?

A bit apples and oranged don't you think? But if you insist, yes they are too expensive also. Bottom line is there really exists no valid reason for the sliding scale other than they get to make even more money off someone elses hard work who is now hooked.

And I've asked this before, with no response so I'll toss it out there again; do the kids in Korea that get the BB's in a year or so get charged the same amount of money as the kids in America? Canada? Europe?

 

[miguksaram]

A bit apples and oranged don't you think? But if you insist, yes they are too expensive also. Bottom line is there really exists no valid reason for the sliding scale other than they get to make even more money off someone elses hard work who is now hooked.

And I've asked this before, with no response so I'll toss it out there again; do the kids in Korea that get the BB's in a year or so get charged the same amount of money as the kids in America? Canada? Europe?

Why apples and oranges? I'm doing all the work, research and studying. The teachers are just teaching me what I need to know for the next level. How is that different than learning the next level of martial arts?

As to your question regarding kids in Korea, the KKW charges the same basic price for the certification. What the instructors charge I have no idea.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Why apples and oranges?

Because there is a difference between a Masters or PH.D. degree earned at a University and a KKW cert that can be bought at a 'special test' near you without having to show up.

And your saying that a Korean child getting their KKW cert will pay $90 USD? Hmm, are you sure about that?

 

[Master Dan]

The direction we are going which in your opinion is negative started the day the art form was commercialized to feed the Olympics with global domination/expansion as the focus. No organization past a certain size and dollar amounts does not have some coruption or waste to it. However what will you replace it with. The money goes to support many different things on many levels and cultural services. There are many quality people attached to it that are a pleasure to even be in the same room with. It always seems the younger generations want to question the validity of the older generations?

Your first concern should be with your training how good you train your students and thier lives. But in the opinion corner I quote my life long master or the opinions of our betters that Martial art is like a big Ocean and you are in a small pond yes you may be a big fish in the little pond but when you swim out into the big ocean you are not so big so being part of an organization like KKW life long loyal doing the best you can for yourself and your students has value far beyond dollars? what other people do overcharging not training bad training you cannot control all you can do is your best for lack of anything to compare it to KKW is still the best unless you or your students never intend to leave the pond

 

[Kong Soo Do]

The direction we are going which in your opinion is negative started the day the art form was commercialized to feed the Olympics with global domination/expansion as the focus. No organization past a certain size and dollar amounts does not have some coruption or waste to it.

I'm glad to see that someone will actually state it as such.

However what will you replace it with.

Why replace it with anything? How about simply restore the instructor/student relationship? Why the need to go beyond the person that actually trained you in the first place? Worked pretty well in the past and produced many quality people.

It always seems the younger generations want to question the validity of the older generations?

Actually, I'd be part of the older generation. But in defense of the younger generation, if they see something wrong then I can't fault them for stating it. I've seen lots of 'older' generation people look the other way so their next promotion wasn't in jeopardy. Doesn't that speak of integrity?

But in the opinion corner I quote my life long master or the opinions of our betters that Martial art is like a big Ocean and you are in a small pond yes you may be a big fish in the little pond but when you swim out into the big ocean you are not so big so being part of an organization like KKW life long loyal doing the best you can for yourself and your students has value far beyond dollars? what other people do overcharging not training bad training you cannot control all you can do is your best for lack of anything to compare it to KKW is still the best unless you or your students never intend to leave the pond

That's all well and good I suppose. But many don't look at the KKW as the big ocean or the best to be had. Particularly those involved in the martial side of the martial arts. They see it quite differently. Some chose to simply voice the obvious. That isn't disrespectful. That isn't dishonoring. That is candid observation.

YMMV

 

[Markku P]

The KKW processed nearly 230,000 black belt application last year at $70.00 a piece they would have made $16,100,000. That does not includes seconds and up, so yes the KKW is making money and it is supporting the South Korean government most likely. I guess I do not understand why does this matter and what point are you trying o make?

Just curious where did you got this information? I just feel that everything should be open and clear. Those who are a members of WTF and still have to use Kukkiwon certificates should know where money is going..

/Markku P.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Just curious where did you got this information? I just feel that everything should be open and clear. Those who are a members of WTF and still have to use Kukkiwon certificates should know where money is going..

/Markku P.

This sounds like a very reasonable request. Does the KKW provide this information? Who is getting paid what, what events were sponsered and what the bill was etc.

 

[miguksaram]

I'm glad to see that someone will actually state it as such.

Yes, you agree with him but did you ever stop to think that if the pioneers did not place the goal of putting TKD in the Olympics there would have never been motivation for the mass exodus of instructors to go around the world and teach it. So while you may state that "sport" ruined TKD, it is the most likely the reason you even had a chance to study it in the first place. Unless of course you instructor happen to come here simply because he wanted to teach karate in the US instead of Korea.

Why replace it with anything? How about simply restore the instructor/student relationship? Why the need to go beyond the person that actually trained you in the first place? Worked pretty well in the past and produced many quality people.

Also produced a lot of frauds too. John C. Kim and Chung Moo Quan comes to mind. Why the need for any certifications for things like CNA or CPA? Why not just be happy that your accounting teacher gave you an 'A' on your test?

Actually, I'd be part of the older generation. But in defense of the younger generation, if they see something wrong then I can't fault them for stating it. I've seen lots of 'older' generation people look the other way so their next promotion wasn't in jeopardy. Doesn't that speak of integrity?

While agree to a point there is specific way of dealing with it. Some younger generation people fail to approach things with tact and respect. They feel they are owed an answer or feel that perhaps they are right without truly understanding why they are doing something.

 

[miguksaram]

Just curious where did you got this information? I just feel that everything should be open and clear. Those who are a members of WTF and still have to use Kukkiwon certificates should know where money is going..

/Markku P.

Again, why do you feel you are entitled to that information? Outside of getting your certificates you have no financial input? Are you a shareholder? Did you make a charitable donation to them?

This sounds like a very reasonable request. Does the KKW provide this information? Who is getting paid what, what events were sponsered and what the bill was etc.

So you wouldn't mind your job posting how much money you make for everyone to see? This is not a publicly owned company, so why do people feel they are entitled to look into their books?

 

[Markku P]

From the situation you described of getting government money for your school, as long as you are certified, it sounds to me like a "wanting your cake and eating it too scenario". You want this money, as I'm sure it helps you financially, but you don't want to spend that money to keep yourself certified through KKW. So either the government is not giving you enough to substantiate your overall cost of being affiliated with the KKW, which begs the question of why bother at all? Or you just want more money for yourself.

First of all, the money what we are getting right now from goverment is very minimum..But I don't like that fact that we are forced to use Kukkiwon certificates and NO we don't have a choice if I like to get some of my students to competitions ( poomse or sparring ).I can teach what ever I like and I don't need to teach poomsae etc and I still can get Kukkiwon certificates. ( I teach poomsae ).

I don't know how things are In USA, perhaps many of you are happy to send money to Korea and don't care what happens after that. In Europe some countries stopped issue Kukkiwon certificates for normal students and gave people a choice to get their own certificates or Kukkiwon. I personally feel that Kukkiwon and WTF should be totally separate and WTF should issue their own certificates.

Yours,

Markku P.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

So while you may state that "sport" ruined TKD, it is the most likely the reason you even had a chance to study it in the first place.

Actually the type of TKD I studied was non-sport. Often referred to as 'old school' TKD.

Unless of course you instructor happen to come here simply because he wanted to teach karate in the US instead of Korea.

Actually, he was born here. His instructor came to this country to make a buck. But fortunately his instructor's instructor loved to teach and put that first and foremost. This filtered down to my instructor.

Why the need for any certifications for things like CNA or CPA? Why not just be happy that your accounting teacher gave you an 'A' on your test?

Once again, you're comparing apples and oranges. MBA's, Ph.D.'s, CNA's, CPA's etc are professional ratings. There are industry standards (that don't usually flex and bend on a whim). Martial arts, while having been commercialized are not professional ratings. I find it very hard to believe you're comparing a KKW cert to a professional degree or rating. I really am Jeremy. Seriously.

Some younger generation people fail to approach things with tact and respect. They feel they are owed an answer or feel that perhaps they are right without truly understanding why they are doing something.

And who are these people? And yes, they are owed an answer. If they're being asked to put in long hard hours of dedicated training AND fork over hard earned cash then they are entitled to reasonable answers. This isn't a Kung Fu episode. And the days are gone thankfully of 'don't question the master'. A good instructor invites questions and should in fact encourage them. Questions lead to understanding and understanding leads to a better student. The only reason a 'master' wouldn't invite questions is if he doesnt' know the answer and has too much pride to say as much.

 

[Markku P]

why does everyone think everything should be free or handouts or "AT COST"???? once again, dont like it, DONT PARTICIPATE! If YOUR country requires it then TAKE IT UP WITH THEM to create thier OWN National org and recycle the money within your country.

I don't think anyone has asked free certificates, actually I think Kukkiwon fees are quite cheap. I just would like to have more information.

-how much money Kukiwon is generating annually?
-how many people are getting their certificates via Kukkiwon every year?
-how is kukkiwon organized?
-how people are selected to work with Kukkiwon?

Comment about that we should create our own national organization..perhaps you don't know how much work it will take and how long? ..and it won't make any sense..

/Markku P.

 

[Kong Soo Do]

Again, why do you feel you are entitled to that information? Outside of getting your certificates you have no financial input? Are you a shareholder? Did you make a charitable donation to them?

Sounds like you're desparately trying to defend them and their past actions (some of which were illegal). He has a right to ask where his money is going.

So you wouldn't mind your job posting how much money you make for everyone to see? This is not a publicly owned company, so why do people feel they are entitled to look into their books?

My job is listed and a public record. I don't mind at all.

What are they trying to hide Jeremy?

 

[Markku P]

As for the argument of bring it under the WTF, people forget that the WTF while a separate entity, is part of the KKW.

I don't mean to be disrespectful but I don't this is true. I don't see anything about this in the WTF rules and I have faint memory that Olympic rules won't allow it.

 

[miguksaram]

Sounds like you're desperately trying to defend them and their past actions (some of which were illegal). He has a right to ask where his money is going.

He already knows where it is going...he paid for a certificate. Is he paying a membership to be in the KKW? No...is he a board member or a stock holder of KKW? No. Is he a Korean citizen? No. (I say this because it is a government entity now). He has not "right" to know anything about what happens to that money after it passes his hand. This is just common sense. I don't by an apple from a farmer and then tell him I have the right to know where he is going to spend that money.

My job is listed and a public record. I don't mind at all.

Well there you go once again you are an exception to the rule. For most people would not like to have that information posted.

What are they trying to hide Jeremy?

Well if I told you that I would lose my cool secret agent status that you all love me for.