Taekwondo Doesn't work on someone skilled

[JowGaWolf]

You are not being attacked.

What do you mean I'm not being attacked? That I'm wasn't attacked in the examples, I gave or that I've never been attacked?

 

[TrueJim]

The fact that there are tons of videos on youtube of people fighting in the street or fighting against an attacker should give you a good idea of what's possible....

This raises another good point. A lot of the YouTube videos I've seen are of two guys in the street with a gang of people around them watching and often egging the two guys on. The two guys will circle for a while, feint, then one of them will manage to get a good strike in.

Personally, I don't think those are really "self defense" situations. Either one of those guys could have just walked away at any time. Those videos are two guys deciding to fight...which isn't really the same as self-defense IMO.

 

[Gnarlie]

Legitimate.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This raises another good point. A lot of the YouTube videos I've seen are of two guys in the street with a gang of people around them watching and often egging the two guys on. The two guys will circle for a while, feint, then one of them will manage to get a good strike in.

Personally, I don't think those are really "self defense" situations. Either one of those guys could have just walked away at any time. Those videos are two guys deciding to fight...which isn't really the same as self-defense IMO.

You have to watch the ones that are captured by security cam. Sometimes it's one on one. Sometimes it's one versus many. Sometimes it's with a weapon and sometimes it's without a weapon. The attacks that I've had to deal with so far has been one on one. I've only had to deal with one sneak attack where 1 person tried to attack me from behind. I was able to flip that guy because his footsteps made me turn around maybe 2 steps before he tried to hit me in the back of my head.

I agree with you. The videos where both of the guys want to fight are the ones that I don't think of as self defense. For me with self-defense one person doesn't want to fight and the other person is determine to bring harm to someone. When both guys want to fight then is a "street fight."

 

[drop bear]

What do you mean I'm not being attacked? That I'm wasn't attacked in the examples, I gave or that I've never been attacked?

OK. Why do tinfoil hats stop the government/aliens from stealing your thoughts?

 

[JowGaWolf]

OK. Why do tinfoil hats stop the government/aliens from stealing your thoughts?

I still don't know what you are talking about.

 

[drop bear]

I still don't know what you are talking about.

Sigh I don't know.

I try to craft my posts with a bit of subtlety and nuaunce and some people just make it hard.

The government/aliens are not stealing any bodies thoughts. He is defending himself from a risk that does not exist.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Sigh I don't know.

I try to craft my posts with a bit of subtlety and nuaunce and some people just make it hard.

The government/aliens are not stealing any bodies thoughts. He is defending himself from a risk that does not exist.

I'm still lost. So I'll take a pass on trying to figure out what you are referring to.

 

[Tez3]

I try to craft my posts with a bit of subtlety and nuaunce and some people just make it hard.

Probably best to keep your sex life out of this, TMI.

 

[Dinkydoo]

I'm not so sure about that. I know when I'm out with friends I listen for irregular footsteps and visual cue from peoples face. People may get a funny look in their face as the person is running towards you from behind. Martial arts that focus on sensing pressure may have prevented the take down. Or at least prevent someone from mounting the person on the back. I would like to think that my trained response to that scenario would be to flow with the energy that his hitting me from behind and then getting into a position where I can redirect that energy. I know that my footing is solid and I'm always mindful that I walk and stand with a solid footing. The solid footing isn't for stopping someone from taking me to the ground as it is for to always retain some kind of balance. I can only assume that the grappling fighting systems out there have a similar ability to recognize shifts in force and pressure. I'm not saying any of this would have stopped it but it would have definitely given her a much better chance to deal with it.

1) Do you honestly think that if someone takes a run at you from behind and mounts your back, you're going to have time to use some kind of force redirecting technique to counter it?

Unless they're sitting there without any malice, it seems unlikely.

2) You listen out for irregular footsteps? What, like in a busy bar?

That kind of awareness seems quite improbable (especially if you're having a beer) and even if you can do it well, it probably means you're never really allowing yourself to relax and 'enjoy the moment' when you're out with friends. Despite various other issues that I'm not going to touch upon, this will likely set yourself up as a target because you're unwittingly sending out the wrong signals to potentially intoxicated strangers.

 

[Tez3]

Most people I know including myself and my husband tend to be paranoid when out. If a bunch of us go into a pub we tend to rearrange seating etc so we don't have backs to doors and windows, we pull curtains, blinds at night, we do watch people and no I don't think we do relax totally when out. My husband still drives carefully up to traffic lights, if he can see they are green he speeds up a bit to go through them, if red he slows right down so that he doesn't sit at the lights if at all possible. We watch what people do with bags, briefcases, carrier bags etc, we get even more paranoid if we see them unattended for more than a minute. We certainly watch people's faces. We can't not do all this, not martial arts training as such but Northern Ireland training and many, many deployments there as well as the terrorist situation here for years.

 

[drop bear]

Probably best to keep your sex life out of this, TMI.

 

[JowGaWolf]

1) Do you honestly think that if someone takes a run at you from behind and mounts your back, you're going to have time to use some kind of force redirecting technique to counter it?

From my post:. "You can't defend against something that you can't see."
1. If you are aware that someone behind you is running at you for the purpose of harming you then yes. I've done it before and my brother has done it before in at the club with music playing and the lights dim. This is why I said that you can't defend against something you can't see. If you can't see the attack coming then there's no way to defend against it. Even if you catch a glimpse of the attack moments before you get hit, that is better than not seeing it at all. It also gives you a chance to react in a way that you wouldn't be able to react if you haven't seen it. Blind side hits in football vs hits that a player is aware of is a perfect example. The human body and mind reacts faster than most people realize so long as the the mind (your eyes) see the attack coming. So yes, if I catch a glimpse of someone attacking me from behind then I have enough time to make the adjustments that may get me out of danger. I've been there, done it, and I'm not the only one that has done such a thing. It's not a "master martial art skill." The time that I did it, I wasn't taking Tai Chi. The time that my brother did it, he was wrestling in college. In my case I ended up flipping my attacker and when we both hit the ground I was the one on top pounding his face. In my brother's case he was fighting against 2 people when he caught the attack coming towards him, he pivot so that the first guy he was dealing with was in between him and the second guy that tried to attack him from behind.

2) You listen out for irregular footsteps? What, like in a busy bar?

2. I learned to pay attention to footsteps when I was in the 6th grade mainly because for some reason it was the "in thing" for bullies to attack people from behind. I've been doing it ever since. In a self defense situation it doesn't mean that I will hear footsteps, but it also doesn't mean that I won't.

In college I was at a party at an apartment complex parking lot with music playing and people talking. Someone pulled out a gun during a conflict and above all of that noise multiple people heard someone yell "he's got a gun" I couldn't tell you what song was playing that day but I remember how people close to the chaos ran away some hid under cars. I hid behind a car but in a way that the wheel would get in the way of anything bouncing off the ground. You'll be surprised at well your body can tell when something isn't right just based on sound. Parents use sound all the time with their kids. When things get too quiet in the house it's time to go check to see what trouble the child is getting into.

So to answer your question. Yes I listen for irregular footsteps, out of place sounds, lack of sounds, and visual cues from the faces of people. In the description that was given about the woman who was tackled was that she went outside for a smoke with her friends and was tackled. Scuffling of shoes or my friends stopping in mid conversation focusing on something behind me is what I've always used. When I was in my 20's my friends and I would always look out for each other in the clubs. If we are in a group talking to each other and my friend seems to be staring over my shoulder, I turn around. If I did the same to them they turn around. When I'm out, I don't just listen for irregular footsteps I use a wide range of awareness skills. During the day and depending on how bright the sun is and the direction of my shadow, I'll even use shadows to help me keep track of what is behind me.

This isn't a paranoid thing for me. It's an awareness thing. When I go out I don't think I'm going to get mugged, knifed, or shot. To worry to that extent would drive anyone insane. But what I do pay attention to is the environment around me.

That kind of awareness seems quite improbable (especially if you're having a beer) and even if you can do it well, it probably means you're never really allowing yourself to relax and 'enjoy the moment' when you're out with friends

I'm 43 years old and I've only been drunk once (at someone's house). I rarely drink to begin with and my personal rule for public drinking is to never drink so much alcohol that it impairs my ability to be able to defend myself or run away without falling on my face. When I drink a lot I eat a lot which helps me to keep a buzz without being torn up. When I think I have too much I begin to drink then I'll start doing math problems in my head to gauge delays and focus in my thought process. It doesn't take much for me to relax and enjoy the moment when I'm with friends. Part of my enjoyment is to see that my friends are having a good time. For me being out of control doesn't = full relaxation or enjoyment. Besides, knowing that everyone else in the club is getting drunk just gives me the comfort that I have the advantage of being able to move if needed without stumbling. I know most people aren't like this which is fine for me. It's no big deal.

The only time I can't relax is when I have financial problems. Everything else is easy for me to deal with.

 

[RTKDCMB]

I try to craft my posts with a bit of subtlety

A little to much sometimes.

 

[RTKDCMB]

As I stated in the video, not every single taekwondo school is like mine.

You should get out more.

I would say that most of them are, and the only legitimate schools that I found either offered more than taekwondo (look up master kwon's full contact taekwondo) or were an mma school that applied taekwondo or karate in their techniques.

Legitimate by who's standards? Yours?

The vast majority of taekwondo schools have very young black belts,

There's a big difference between junior black belts held by young students and Dan level black belts held by young people.

don't spar regularly,

That would be unusual for TKD.

and have a self-defense system that consists of "here I'll hold my hand out" and you imagine what the moves are.

I have never heard of any school that actually does that.

This is why I suggest a school that offers something like brazilian jiu jitsu or kick boxing since they have proven time and time again their effectiveness against other martial arts.

SOME.

Now, you can take things from taekwondo and use them, but to soley rely on that martial art isn't the best way to go.

That is only YOUR opinion based on YOUR experience. The rest of us will take it for what it is.

Its like learning to wrestle but never learning how to punch

False analogy. As far as I know wrestling does not usually have punches in it.

Now, if a big guy wanted to take me down and punch my face in, I know my taekwondo would not stand a chance,

The key words here are "my taekwondo". Many of us do not have that restriction.If you are incapable of dealing with a punch to the face then the issue is with YOUR training not the art as a whole.

which is why I believe going into gaurd and either doing an elbow escape , upa, or triangle choke would benefit my situation

What benefits your situation depends on what you have trained and whatever the situation dictates.

no body can argue that having a vast multitude of skills will make you a better fighter.

Having skills is only part of the equation, being able to apply those skills is the other part.

People who believe they don't need to know how to grapple are mistaken because alot of street fights end up on the ground.

A lot of fights end up on the ground because most people do not know how to end a fight quickly.

] And even when it comes to striking, you'll never see a straight karate/taekwondo punch,

Really, never?

you'll see an overhand right coming right for your face

And the defense of this would be different from a straight punch how?

and if you try to use things like hapkido and excpect them to let themselves be thrown you're very mistaken.

I have trained in Hapkido, no one practicing throwing techniques expects actual attackers in real situations will let you do anything.

They will resist and all I see in taekwondo schools and hapkido schools in the united states (and even korea, just look up some korean schools and you'll only see demonstration, no real training for resistance).

You would have to train with them to see the training, you only see a demonstration when they are demonstrating, go figure.

is fake techniques that work on someone who doesn't know what is going on or is complying with the techniques.

Again, you should get out more.

 

[Dinkydoo]

From my post:. "You can't defend against something that you can't see."
1. If you are aware that someone behind you is running at you for the purpose of harming you then yes.

Ah right, it was late and I must have missed that from your post. This makes more sense now and I get what you mean; if I'm aware that someone is about to jump on my back or I'm about to be hit with a projectile just before it happens, then dealing with it/getting out the way is much easier.

2. I learned to pay attention to footsteps when I was in the 6th grade mainly because for some reason it was the "in thing" for bullies to attack people from behind. I've been doing it ever since. In a self defense situation it doesn't mean that I will hear footsteps, but it also doesn't mean that I won't.

I'm not sure what that means....you're in a state of awareness where odd footstep patterns are highly noticeable to you?

Seems like quite an unreliable skill. I might be able to notice a weird kind of noise/patter of footsteps nearby but it's certainly not something I'm actively listening out for.

In college I was at a party at an apartment complex parking lot with music playing and people talking. Someone pulled out a gun during a conflict and above all of that noise multiple people heard someone yell "he's got a gun" I couldn't tell you what song was playing that day but I remember how people close to the chaos ran away some hid under cars. I hid behind a car but in a way that the wheel would get in the way of anything bouncing off the ground. You'll be surprised at well your body can tell when something isn't right just based on sound. Parents use sound all the time with their kids. When things get too quiet in the house it's time to go check to see what trouble the child is getting into.

Okay, I get that...

So to answer your question. Yes I listen for irregular footsteps, out of place sounds, lack of sounds, and visual cues from the faces of people.

....but it's not something that I think you need to consciously do.

What you're talking about is closer to intuition based on the years of experience you have, its quite subconscious and occurs naturally, that's why most people can't remember much about the start of an incident apart from this trigger which is at the moment you realise something is wrong. You don't need to really be in this higher state of awareness that you're describing - I'm sure it helps - but I think that it would definitely give people the impression that you were a bit shady and potentially invite trouble.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I mean a kickboxing school would have to self defence better right?

FWIW IMO the mount defense shown was badly flawed due to the failure to trap the leg and arm.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I'm not sure what that means....you're in a state of awareness where odd footstep patterns are highly noticeable to you?

This is the best way I can explain it. For the footsteps I can hear: There is a normal pattern to the sound. There's no hesitation, or irregular scraping of the sole of the shoe on the pavement. If I don't hear footsteps behind me and then suddenly hear a footsteps then that would be something that would cause me to turn around. For the most part humans are noisy when they walk. For most people it's just white noise so we really don't pay attention to it. Carpet is a game killer for me. Concrete / pavement is uneven so people sometimes scrape the bottom of their shoes when the pavement becomes uneven or changes height. There's a reason why police here always recommend to people not to have the headphones in when they are on the trails. For me I recognize the differences between what sounds normal and what doesn't sound normal because I've been paying attention to noise that people make when they walk. Maybe the best way to describe it is how some people can recognize which family member is walking up the steps based on the footsteps sound when coming up the steps and anything that sounds out of the norm then to be pickup automatically.

Bird watchers and hunters have a similar visual and audio skill which allows them to spot and recognize certain noises in the woods that most people would be unaware of. I used to do a lot of nature photography so my eyes would pick up snakes that other people would walk by and many times I wasn't actively looking for snakes. Footsteps are the same way for me.

but it's not something that I think you need to consciously do

Exactly. I'm not a footstep scanner lol. It's just that once you start paying attention to it, your body starts to automatically process it like getting a whiff of air that suddenly doesn't smell "normal" maybe like gas or maybe a dead animal. We aren't actively sniffing for these changes but we are aware of them when it happens. Especially where anything that smells like gas tend to put us in an alert status.

You don't need to really be in this higher state of awareness that you're describing - I'm sure it helps - but I think that it would definitely give people the impression that you were a bit shady and potentially invite trouble.

It just depends on where you live and where you work. I used to live and work in a very violent city where a dead body dumped in the woods close to my house was more to be expected than a shock. Gunshots at night at least 5 a week in the area was a norm. Walking by drug dealers everyday, most seem like normal people and were friendly so long as no one was trying to give them up to the police, or messing with their stash and money. Car jackings and car thefts were normal as well. I put it this way. When I moved away from Baltimore Maryland, to Georgia, car door slams and fireworks often put me on high alert. It took about 2 years for me to work that out of my system. Fireworks still make me alert but they don't kick me into self-defense mode. The only people who knew that I was at this higher state of awareness would be the ones who were thinking about doing something wrong. If you were walking next to me you would think that I just a regular person.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Some random thoughts ...

When making a video it's a good idea to decide what you need to say beforehand and stick to it. This video had about 90 seconds worth of something to say crammed into 12 minutes.

I don't have enough TKD experience to say whether the type of training the OP describes is typical of the majority of TKD schools.

I do know that it's common enough that I've seen it more than once.

It's not just common in TKD. I've seen the same problems at different schools in a variety of arts. It may have something to do with not wanting to scare off paying customers by giving them too much challenge or discomfort.

The problems described have to do with how the instructor in question structures training. They're not inherent to the art. I could teach BJJ in such a way that it sucks as well. Maybe 70 years from now BJJ McDojos that train without resistance or understanding of combative realities will be as common as TKD McDojangs are today.

I like to think that I meet the criterion of being "skilled." Even so, I have no problems with admitting that there are TKD practitioners who could easily kick my butt in a fair fight, using just their TKD.

As others have noted, "fighting skill" and "self-defense skill" are two different fields with only a bit of overlap. Even so, the training that the OP describes isn't tremendously helpful with either one.

 

[drop bear]

FWIW IMO the mount defense shown was badly flawed due to the failure to trap the leg and arm.

And that it was just terrible in almost every dimension. I am more upset with the guys on top. Coach is telling people to hold the guy down. You hold the guy down.