Taekwondo by another name

[DMcHenry]

Daniel, as long as you are using Korean, you might want to go ahead and use the Korean name for the Pinan Katas = Pyung-ahn hyungs.

I have done those form sets in several TKD dojangs I've attended along with some of the others (Palgwe, Taegeuk, and Chang-hon).

 

[Twin Fist]

I said it before, most KKW bashers ARE KKW bashers because they were denied or never given the opportunity.

or the people that think it is stupid, pointless, and of no value.

thats me. I dont like the wtf style of fighting, so i dont need it to fight in those events.

My lineage predates the KKW, so i dont need it for that.

Since I dont do WTF sport sparring, or ref it, I dont need it for that.

if i need to go to another school on a trip or if i move, well, i can still move well enough to prove i am what i say i am, so i dont need it for that.

And in my experience, the KKW never denies anyone......as long as the check clears.

 

[DMcHenry]

Kicho (keecho) are "Basic" forms found in TSD & TKD as well as many Japanses arts.

Chul-gi = Naihanchi = Nafanchin = Tekki, performed in TSD & TKD
yup, Bassai/Passai is the same (similar) to Bassai Dai.

These form sets were used in the Japanese arts and old TKD, still used in TSD.

 

[Twin Fist]

we use Chul-gi and Bassai

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I have never once Said that KKW TKD is the only TKD. Those words came out of the mouths of those who ARE NOT KKW CERTIFIED. I said it before, most KKW bashers ARE KKW bashers because they were denied or never given the opportunity.

Heres an example:

I HATE COUNTRY CLUBS...... because they wont let me in. No matter how long I played golf, I'm not part of thier club and if I join, they won't recognize the past 20 years I have been golfing. They will only give me a membership stating.... Golf MEMBER: 1 YR. I want it to say 20 Yrs... I dont like that so I wont join. I see no benefit.... You are all fools for being in a country club!!!!!!
​

Sounds ridiculous right? Don't hate the members.....

Well, as a KKW certified Taekwondoin, I have to disagree with you. This may be true of some detractors, but there are others with very legitamate criticisms of the Kukkiwon, some of whom are also Kukkiwon certified. Some question the sport direction that the Kukkiwon seems to be leaning in.

Also, given relative the ease with which one may obtain rank in the Kukkiwon, I cannot see rank denial as a primary reason for most.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

I had forgotten about Jhoon Rhee. Which is really weird, given that Jhoon Rhee was my first experience in Taekwondo and is a local legend in my area.

Pyung Ahn is the same as Pinans if memory serves; Pyung Ahn being Korean. I have never heard of Kicho Hyung.

Daniel

Although Jhoon Rhee is in my lineage, I'm not a fan at all of his creations.

The Kicho forms are just the Taikyoku forms from karate imported with a few technique changes. There is some variation in them based on which TSD group one trains with.

The Pyung Ahn forms actually stem from the Heian Shotokan forms which in turn were modified versions of the Pinan kata. The technique and stance changes the Japanese made seem minor but IMO they actually change the bunkai to a great degree, so much so that I think it's better to say Pyung Ahn rather than Pinan for clarity's sake when discussing bunkai or technique evaluations.

 

[IcemanSK]

Bassai? As in Bassai Dai?

Daniel

Yes, Bassai as in Bassai Dai. I don't know of any TKD schools that do Bassai Sho, but I'll bet they are out there. Often TKD schools will Bassai Dai Pal Sek....a Korean word.


Yun Be is another TSD forms that is still apart of some TKD programs. I believe it's also used in Karate schools as well. I can't recall it's other name.

 

[dancingalone]

Yes, Bassai as in Bassai Dai. I don't know of any TKD schools that do Bassai Sho, but I'll bet they are out there. Often TKD schools will Bassai Dai Pal Sek....a Korean word.


Yun Be is another TSD forms that is still apart of some TKD programs. I believe it's also used in Karate schools as well. I can't recall it's other name.

Bassai Sho is usually taught for shodans advancing to nidan in Shotokan, so it's not surprising that it is not widely taught in TKD schools, given the relative junior karate rank of the Korean students that went on to create TKD. (Not picking a fight here, so anyone reading please don't take it as one - just stating the facts as I understand it.) Bassai Dai is a brown belt form, so more Koreans would have been exposed to it and mastered it sufficiently to be comfortable teaching it. I think the last time we discussed this on MT, Mr. McClain from the Chayon-ryu system said his instructor, Mr. Kim Soo, a Korean who studied at the Chang Moo Kwan, teaches Bassai Sho.

Yun Be = Shotokan Empi = Okinawan Wanshu
more or less.

 

[Twin Fist]

bassai sho is usually taught for shodans advancing to nidan in shotokan, so it's not surprising that it is not widely taught in tkd schools, given the relative junior karate rank of the korean students that went on to create tkd. (not picking a fight here, so anyone reading please don't take it as one - just stating the facts as i understand it.) bassai dai is a brown belt form, so more koreans would have been exposed to it and mastered it sufficiently to be comfortable teaching it.

+1

 

[TaeKwonDoKevin]

Well, as a KKW certified Taekwondoin, I have to disagree with you. This may be true of some detractors, but there are others with very legitamate criticisms of the Kukkiwon, some of whom are also Kukkiwon certified. Some question the sport direction that the Kukkiwon seems to be leaning in.

Also, given relative the ease with which one may obtain rank in the Kukkiwon, I cannot see rank denial as a primary reason for most.

Daniel

Very nice post Daniel! Thank You.
As you know, (from other forums we are on) I have NO problem with any other org. if that is what someone wants. I do have an issue with people thinking or saying their Org. is the ONLY REAL way to go.
I have had chances to have a KKW Certificate, I choose not to. I am more of a Chang Hon style, although I do (& my students) attend tournaments given by WTF members, and yes, we go home with trophies.
I have a friend in California who is the first or 1 of the first KKW non-Korean 8th Degree Black Belts. I have a good deal of respect for him, we have known each other for 25 years, used to compete together.
I dont understand the personal attacks I received on the other thread, I thought I gave everyone mutual respect.
For those of you that just don't understand why I don't care to have a KKW Certificate.....read your own posts:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=79363

I first started TKD in the 1970s, we learned the Patterns under G.Master Duk Sung Son, founder of the World TKD Association.
Pyung Ahn, Kuk Mu, Tae Guk (spelled)
My Instructor later changed to a different association, we then learned the Chang Hon system.
After I reached 1st Degree, I moved and my new Instructor was WTF, I learned Palgwe Patterns to 2nd Degree Black Belt.... well, He moved to Colorado.... I later went back to the Chang Hon Patterns.
I teach the Chang Hon Patterns, system today.

Insults not needed.
Respectfully,
-Kevin

 

[d1jinx]

... I do have an issue with people thinking or saying their Org. is the ONLY REAL way to go.
I have had chances to have a KKW Certificate,...

You and Others Keep saying that... can you show me where that was said because I didnt read that part. Come to think of it, I haven't read that in any of the posts I have participated....

 

[d1jinx]

Also, given relative the ease with which one may obtain rank in the Kukkiwon, I cannot see rank denial as a primary reason for most.

Daniel

If a 5th Dan Homemade TKD student walks into Kukkiwon and asks for a 5th Dan KKW, He wont be denied a 1st Dan, maybe even 2nd Dan.... He Will be denied a 5th Dan. That was my point. Unless you were cert'd by another LARGE org that THEY (KKW) recognizes, you will be denied rank an equal rank. There Are SOME who feel that because they cannot be recognized for the rank they are SAY SCREW KKW.

 

[TaeKwonDoKevin]

You and Others Keep saying that... can you show me where that was said because I didnt read that part. Come to think of it, I haven't read that in any of the posts I have participated....

Without going through and listing ALL, here is just one of the postings that IMPLIES if you are NOT KKW Certified, then you are not TKD:

Well Here it is... Your not going to like it. First, I train my self but I also continue my education in the Martial arts. I just don't say " That is the way I was trained". I like to stay currnet and up to date. I mean look at the world around , every profession must keep learning to stay viable. I found in order to become a international referee I needed to be KKW. In order to compete internationally I needed to be KKW. In order to continue to improve my skills in the art of the people that you are dismissing in your comments I needed a KKW. Your wrong in not at least offering KKW to your students, you were not given the right to make that decision for them.

The ITF, ATA, GTF and others DO have International Events, now IF the ONLY way to be in a TaeKwonDo International Event is to be KKW Certified, that Very Well IMPIES ALL other Orgs. and Independants are NOT TaeKwonDo.

With Respect,
-Kevin

 

[TaeKwonDoKevin]

If a 5th Dan Homemade TKD student walks into Kukkiwon and asks for a 5th Dan KKW, He wont be denied a 1st Dan, maybe even 2nd Dan.... He Will be denied a 5th Dan. That was my point. Unless you were cert'd by another LARGE org that THEY (KKW) recognizes, you will be denied rank an equal rank. There Are SOME who feel that because they cannot be recognized for the rank they are SAY SCREW KKW.

I see your point, AND I agree with you.
Anyone that high of Rank, should NOT be surprised if asked or told they will be dropped in Rank when switching to an Association with different Patterns and kick Chambers. But, you will usually find that in reverse also, go from a WTF KKW to an ITF and 1 probably will not keep their 5th Dan Rank either.
with Respect,
-Kevin

 

[dancingalone]

You and Others Keep saying that... can you show me where that was said because I didnt read that part. Come to think of it, I haven't read that in any of the posts I have participated....

But you have said several times that you think people who might criticize aspects of the KKW are people who lack the opportunity to hold KKW rank themselves. That's certainly one of the reasons I've responded with my points. You do realize that's rather insulting, don't you? A TKDist can certainly hold an opinion positive or negative about TKD orgs without secretly harboring some certificate envy.

 

[garrisons2]

OMFG they are awful. How can such a person wear a BB with any honor?

 

[NPTKD]

Without going through and listing ALL, here is just one of the postings that IMPLIES if you are NOT KKW Certified, then you are not TKD:



The ITF, ATA, GTF and others DO have International Events, now IF the ONLY way to be in a TaeKwonDo International Event is to be KKW Certified, that Very Well IMPIES ALL other Orgs. and Independants are NOT TaeKwonDo.

With Respect,
-Kevin

My intention was not to take this thread to where the other went. I am sincere about this topic. I was just wondering.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

If a 5th Dan Homemade TKD student walks into Kukkiwon and asks for a 5th Dan KKW, He wont be denied a 1st Dan, maybe even 2nd Dan.... He Will be denied a 5th Dan. That was my point.

Unless you were cert'd by another LARGE org that THEY (KKW) recognizes, you will be denied rank an equal rank. There Are SOME who feel that because they cannot be recognized for the rank they are SAY SCREW KKW.

In fact, very few of the detractors of the Kukkiwon have ever walked into the building, let alone ask for rank.

Also, unless I am mistaken, and KKW 4th dan and higher can do the paperwork to promote a student up to and including the rank one beneath their own through fifth dan, thus walking into the Kukkiwon or even Korea is not a necessity unless you are testing for sixth dan or higher.

Very few KKW detractors are folks who were denied a 6th dan or higher. Most simply have issues with the curriculum.

As far as orgs recognized by the KKW, so far as I know, only affiliates qualify (such as USAT). I do not believe that the Kukkiwon honors rank of any large organization outside of itself.

Anyway, this really not the thrust of the thread, and as I hold rank with the Kukkiwon and have no major complaints, I take no offense at what you said. I just felt that it is an inaccurate generalization.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

My intention was not to take this thread to where the other went. I am sincere about this topic. I was just wondering.

Indeed!

There are plenty of existing thread on the merits and flaws of the Kukkiwon. Discussion about rank denial and bitterness of KKW critics would fit well in a number of them.

Given that Taekwondo served as an umbrella term for the original Kwans, which differed from one another in their curriculum but still shared some common threads, I would think that there is a fair amount of latitude in what can be considered Taekwondo. So long as those essentials are there, the 31 different flavors are all still ice cream.

Daniel

 

[Twin Fist]

Jhoon Rhee should not be listed seperatly from Chong Hon, since thats what he uses.....