Black Belt Transferability

[dancingalone]

Some have argued in another thread now locked that a black belt certificate conferred by a large organization, namely the Kukkiwon's, is portable. Thus, a student "Joe" who earned perhaps a second dan at one school can readily keep the same rank when studying at another school in the same org. Sounds great at face value, but what are we really talking about?

At his new school, Joe

1) Gets to wear his nice dan Nike Grandmaster dobak with the black trim. Cool. He's told however that the stripes on his black belt are ostentatious and he should buy a new black belt as possible without extra adornment as that is what they use locally. Oops.

2) Gets to line up at the front with the seniors. Cool, Joe thinks. I'm the master of the demo and Chuck "The Truck" Wallace has nothing on me. Yellow belts, hear me roar.

3) Has the automatic respect of everyone in his new school. Well maybe. Some will honor Joe's rank without question; others will wait to see if he has the goods first. Anytime one joins a new school, there's an adjustment period to see where one fits in. Certainly, it will take time before a transfer student even a dan holder is treated with the same level of regard as someone who has sweated and bled there the whole time.

4) Gets to learn the new school's dan material right away. Perhaps. The KKW requirements are a bit lean and schools often augment the curriculum with some in-house material. Joe might have to spend a few months learning gup self-defense material to get up to speed first. Oh the horror! On the plus side, the KKW requirements he learned seemed to have translated almost perfectly.

5) Gets to keep accumulating his time in grade without interrruption. That's really important to Joe since he sees himself as a grandmaster someday. Yes, this is a real advantage if you're committed to the KKW path and you're one of the elite 1% that will go all the way.

So what am I missing? I honestly don't see much of a benefit to rank portability unless one just likes the rank for its own sake or if one have a goal to run a MA business. You can say the rank is portable, and it probably is on a superficial level - but it seems to me if you're switching schools, you're in for a journey with plenty of uncomfortable moments regardless.

There are indeed advantages to being a member of a large org, particularly the KKW, but I really think some of the advocates overstate it, particularly for the rank and file type students.

But what do I know? I just have an Allen Steen/Jhoon Rhee lineage BB. The equivalent of shopping at Wallyworld, I know. I also own a Honda and a Toyota and I attended a public university instead of having a Rolls-Royce and going to Harvard. And I (cough) have been known to make a trip from time to time to Walmart. Poor me.

 

[Earl Weiss]

It has certain benefits. To an extent it's rank portability. To another extent it's traveling on a relatively consistent journey.

Some personal experience. ITF assoc since white belt and went away to college as red belt- 1975- found school teaching same system but with WTF Flag on wall and General Choi's book on the desk. They did not have red belts - only brown. Told instructor I would wear whatever belt he wanted. Keeps me at red / brown. Take first place at in house tournament. Later teach at one of his schools till he sells. Do not test with him but when I go home for the summer. Test 2 times and return as a BB. He will not let me wear BB, wants me to test - Pay $ for his BB. I refuse, happily train wearing red belt with Black Stripe.

Now, have many visitors from around the country / world. Some ITF, and some ITF style. Those who are ITF fit right in. Depending on the length of their stay, they may or may not learn my personal curriculm. Those who are "ITF Style" may not fit in so easily. If it is a short visit , this is of no consequence. If they are looking to continue and advance it is more difficult since they will need to know / learn the ITF technical parameters of all material up to their current rank before being able to progress.

 

[Earl Weiss]

There is also something I call "Orphaned Students" . These are people who have left their instructors, or whose instructors have left them for any number of reasons.
Being part of a large group makes it easier to find a "home".

 

[terryl965]

I hear to much about belts, damm do we never train anymore? I mean do you or I really give a rats *** about that belt anyway, it reminds me that I have been doing this too long and should take a break but like anything in my life when I walk out the door I forgot that I was not going to teach again so the next day comes. All I really need is a Coke and a Butterfinger and I am happy oh and before I forget Ice Cream as well.:asian:

 

[ATC]

Some have argued in another thread now locked that a black belt certificate conferred by a large organization, namely the Kukkiwon's, is portable. Thus, a student "Joe" who earned perhaps a second dan at one school can readily keep the same rank when studying at another school in the same org. Sounds great at face value, but what are we really talking about?

At his new school, Joe

1) Gets to wear his nice dan Nike Grandmaster dobak with the black trim. Cool. He's told however that the stripes on his black belt are ostentatious and he should buy a new black belt as possible without extra adornment as that is what they use locally. Oops.

2) Gets to line up at the front with the seniors. Cool, Joe thinks. I'm the master of the demo and Chuck "The Truck" Wallace has nothing on me. Yellow belts, hear me roar.

3) Has the automatic respect of everyone in his new school. Well maybe. Some will honor Joe's rank without question; others will wait to see if he has the goods first. Anytime one joins a new school, there's an adjustment period to see where one fits in. Certainly, it will take time before a transfer student even a dan holder is treated with the same level of regard as someone who has sweated and bled there the whole time.

4) Gets to learn the new school's dan material right away. Perhaps. The KKW requirements are a bit lean and schools often augment the curriculum with some in-house material. Joe might have to spend a few months learning gup self-defense material to get up to speed first. Oh the horror! On the plus side, the KKW requirements he learned seemed to have translated almost perfectly.

5) Gets to keep accumulating his time in grade without interrruption. That's really important to Joe since he sees himself as a grandmaster someday. Yes, this is a real advantage if you're committed to the KKW path and you're one of the elite 1% that will go all the way.

So what am I missing? I honestly don't see much of a benefit to rank portability unless one just likes the rank for its own sake or if one have a goal to run a MA business. You can say the rank is portable, and it probably is on a superficial level - but it seems to me if you're switching schools, you're in for a journey with plenty of uncomfortable moments regardless.

There are indeed advantages to being a member of a large org, particularly the KKW, but I really think some of the advocates overstate it, particularly for the rank and file type students.

But what do I know? I just have an Allen Steen/Jhoon Rhee lineage BB. The equivalent of shopping at Wallyworld, I know. I also own a Honda and a Toyota and I attended a public university instead of having a Rolls-Royce and going to Harvard. And I (cough) have been known to make a trip from time to time to Walmart. Poor me.

I get you and understand where you are coming from. But really what does it matter?

I have had many 3rd Dans (I am only a 2nd) come and go in our dojang. Just because they lined up to my right made no difference to me at all. I could care less if they studied what I studied. All I cared about is that I did what was expected to the best of my abilities. The new students all looked up and respected me as I already had the respect of the existing students.

My sparring, SD, poomsae, and all other techniques were better than said migrated 3rd Dan's, so it made no diff to me.

We have a 65 year old 3rd Dan about to test for his 4th Dan in a few years. He has endurance issues, flexibility issues, and some other deficiencies that I don't have or don't have to his extent. He asks for my help every day, and gives the utmost respect to me and others below him.

His rank only states that he has performed what was expected of him at the time of his test. It does not mean that he is better or worse than anyone else.

My point is why even worry about such things really as they really mean nothing in the scheme of things. Just focus on ones self to become the best you can be and who cares about the rest. It really doesn't affect you one way or another if you think about it.

 

[ATC]

Oh in addition to what I stated, I will alway do my best to help anyone get better also. Regardless if there rank or belt is higher than mines.

 

[granfire]

hmmm, interesting.

I guess it's the good thing of a McDojang company to have severla hundret schools to choose from

A BB who keeps training is a BB. Follow me here...

A form is a form, if it's not Poom, then it's Hyong, big woop. Even in a micro managed gig like the ITA there are great differences in the result of the product. You go someone elses place you will have to lay low and go with the flow.

I have heard of BBs transfering in and pretty much stay where they are Belt wise. (I think it was a matter of saving around 1400 bucks)

Rules for sparring varie anyhow, there is more than one way to teach SD, and forms just have to be crammed at first.

Of course, should I happen to wander into Dancingalone's gym tomorrow, I'd probably cry 'Uncle' within 15 minutes o less and gladly pic up sculpting with potato salad!


(and don't knock Walmart, they take all my money....)

 

[dancingalone]

I get you and understand where you are coming from. But really what does it matter?

My point is why even worry about such things really as they really mean nothing in the scheme of things. Just focus on ones self to become the best you can be and who cares about the rest. It really doesn't affect you one way or another if you think about it.

ATC, you're absolutely correct it shouldn't matter one bit. I stated this post to respond to some points in the other thread that was closed due to some members not being able to discuss things politely. It's been thrown around repeatedly that portable rank was a key reason why some choose to be with the KKW. I'm merely trying to peel the onion skin a bit and look at what's really there. So far, not too much by my count.

 

[granfire]

correct me if I misunderstood that: I believe I read at some point that for a nominal fee the KKW registers your BB, no matter where it's from. (Even mail order ones?)

 

[msmitht]

correct me if I misunderstood that: I believe I read at some point that for a nominal fee the KKW registers your BB, no matter where it's from. (Even mail order ones?)

The KKW will honor your previous cert's if you have a recommendation from a Korean GM. I know a guy who was an ITF 4th dan and he went to train for 2 years at a WTF school. The 8th dan who ran the school charged him 3 grand but 6 months later he recieved his KKW 4th.
I agree that for most people the KKW cert is not important. As an instructor that promotes through the KKW I wil recognize any BB/rank that comes to my school as long as they have the skills and time in training. I have helped many get their KKW cert process started. I have seen many fakes. I will say that the KKW cert does have more pull than others when it comes to college applications (Since it is one of the requirements to participate in an olympic event and IOC recognized). It is also nice to be able to get continuing education through their academy. Many other org's offer this. I am not knocking them (except for the ATA) but the ITF has been divided since the death of its founder and most other orgs are not headed out of Korea anymore. I think that since TKD is a korean art and sport it is good to have the international academy there.
It is not the cert...it is the skills behind it.
BTW, I have seen many kids/Adults that have a KKW Poom/dan cert that totally suck. You can not blame them. Their instructor/master/GM should have known better. Money talks...I guess....for some people.

 

[NPTKD]

really....................:lurk:

 

[Twin Fist]

The KKW will honor your previous cert's if you have a recommendation from a Korean GM. I know a guy who was an ITF 4th dan and he went to train for 2 years at a WTF school. The 8th dan who ran the school charged him 3 grand but 6 months later he recieved his KKW 4th.

3 grand.....

and the paper work costs what? less than $200 to file........

 

[msmitht]

3 grand.....

and the paper work costs what? less than $200 to file........

Actually if they have no previous kkw dan but can provide similar dan certificates that tie to the ITF or another reputable org and you can provide a letter of recommendation from a KKW 7 dan or higher then the fee would be the total sum of each certificate leading up to it. 430 us dollars plus what ever charge is added for the test.......or for that nice new car your sa bum/kwang jang is driving. not all are bad....just a small percentage...

 

[shesulsa]

I can see where the intent behind such an organization would be standardized curriculum, promotional requirements and the turnout would hopefully be quality blackbelts who can go anywhere and teach anybody. A student could transfer from their TKD school in Virginia and take it up again in ... say ... Colorado and pick up where s/he left off.

We all would like to boast about how awesome we all are and are sooo willing to don the white belt again ... and again ... and again ... for those who want to keep the flow going, starting over after a few years just because there's no standard can be a REAL pain in the ***.

So ... what are you gonna do? Police all the other dojangs in your state to make sure they fit your standards? What if your standards suck? OR, what if your standards don't suit the school you visit?

I gotta say, I'm kinda tired of knotting my panties about whether or not someone is someone else's version of "legit" or not. It just seems like such a HUGE waste of my time and energy.

:asian:

 

[KELLYG]

psst. I have a KKW certificates. I personally like the idea that I will be recognized as a black belt were ever I go. However if I were to join another gym, I would also expect to be "placed" where the Master wanted me to be, wearing a plain uniform and a plain black belt. Hell where I line up is no big deal. I am there to train not strut around like a rooster with a big ego. I would also expect that even though the curriculum was similar, that I would have to convert some of the techniques from past instruction to the new school's current standard. I would have to understand that I would remain at the level that I was "placed into" until I meet there standards for advancement. With that being said I do not feel I would want to start back at white belt unless I was changing art's. I would not be fair to me or the other students that are white belt's.

 

[terryl965]

Well when I go to a school to train and they ask what rank, I simply say a student of TKD or Okinawa Karate. If they insist I simply say I am here to learn and my rank is not important inside your school, I do not try to dictate or anything but if I walk inyour school either by invite or just a drive by I am there to train or talk and ot teach or be bowed to by anybody students. My worth is simply for me and not everyone else, what certain people believe is great but I do not need rank to learn just open my mind and body so the big pisture can be taken in.

 

[Twin Fist]

me? if i am visiting another school, i will just wear a plain black belt. if they ask i will tell them "BB" the dan doesnt really matter.

and I have my own school, so i wont need to switch anytime soon.

 

[Miles]

I hear to much about belts, damm do we never train anymore? I mean do you or I really give a rats *** about that belt anyway, it reminds me that I have been doing this too long and should take a break but like anything in my life when I walk out the door I forgot that I was not going to teach again so the next day comes. All I really need is a Coke and a Butterfinger and I am happy oh and before I forget Ice Cream as well.:asian:

Totally agree Terry re the belts and the question about training! BTW, just got back from a road trip with my 16yr old daughter who needs to get in like a gazillion hours of driving before she gets her level II license and can drive without a parent. We drove to Pt Huron which is like an hour drive 1 way, stopped at the gas station, I got a Diet Coke and a Butterfinger, then we drove back.

 

[Miles]

me? if i am visiting another school, i will just wear a plain black belt. if they ask i will tell them "BB" the dan doesnt really matter.

and I have my own school, so i wont need to switch anytime soon.

Same here-my group doesn't wear stripes on our belts. When visiting other schools or attending a seminar, I usually just line up in the back and stay there unless invited by the host instructor to move up. I'm there to train, and I can do that just as well from the back row as I can from the front.

 

[shesulsa]

Yeah, ours aren't striped either.