Suing for Kukkiwon Certificate

[Earl Weiss]

What is the purpose of the one year probationary period? Is it an attempt to keep student around past 1st Dan? If so, what is the percentage of students quitting soon after completing the probationary period and receiving their 1st Dan certificate? Trying to find out if the probationary period gets people to stay longer after they receive their certificate or not.

Many moons ago when the earth was cooloing and dinosaurs roamed, Of my Instructors first 14 or so Black Belts, none continued training after about a year. Within a year or two he instituted the one year probationary period.

I have not kept exact figures but I would estimate about 80% now stay past the one year mark and on to 2nd dan and beyond. Keep in mind that the school is and has been a small park distric program. We are only taliking about a couple of first dan promotions every year or so.

 

[puunui]

Many moons ago when the earth was cooloing and dinosaurs roamed, Of my Instructors first 14 or so Black Belts, none continued training after about a year. Within a year or two he instituted the one year probationary period.

I have not kept exact figures but I would estimate about 80% now stay past the one year mark and on to 2nd dan and beyond. Keep in mind that the school is and has been a small park distric program. We are only taliking about a couple of first dan promotions every year or so.

Seems to be working for you then. Can you attribute the retention to anything else other than the probationary period?

 

[terryl965]

Yes Daniel I do not charge them extra for a KKW or AAU, but then again they do not get the uniform and a house certificate. They will get either the KKW or AAU and the belt for the fee. If they want everything I will charge them the extra $70.00 for the KKW or the AAU certificate which nobody has ever gotten from me.:asian:

 

[Earl Weiss]

Seems to be working for you then. Can you attribute the retention to anything else other than the probationary period?

Like many things I am sure there are a multitude of factors.

As students who later also become instructors (but should never cease being a student,) we should try to improve upon how and what our instructors taught us.

Perhaps in some ways I have succeeded, and in other ways perhaps not.

 

[puunui]

Like many things I am sure there are a multitude of factors.

As students who later also become instructors (but should never cease being a student,) we should try to improve upon how and what our instructors taught us.

Perhaps in some ways I have succeeded, and in other ways perhaps not.

Oh well, live and learn. Last question, what do you do with the certificates that you don't give out? Do you just hold them forever?

 

[dbell]

Unless the school is part of an Association, such as ITF, Kukkiwon, etc., the certificate is like a "Menkyo" of old from Japan. It gives that person the "right" to teach at that level as defined in the certificate. The Head Instructor, to my thoughts, has the right to hold off issuing it if they so desire to insure their student meets the requirements of their system and is ready to "go teach". They may have reached the level of training to have the knowledge of that art at that level (1st Dan in this case) but may not be ready to go out and teach (which in my school is 3rd Dan anyway).

So, holding a cert until they have trained longer is OK by me in this regard, provided that is why it is being held.

Now, if the school is part of an Association such as Kukkiwon, etc., then in those that I have seen, the cert should be presented as soon as it is earned and "created" by that Association/Organization, based on their guidelines/processes.

If the person still owes money, I can see holding it until the money is paid current as well, but I ask why training and testing was allowed to continue if the person was in arrears? It is both bad business practice and bad teaching to allow a person to continue training if they are not being morally and ethically correct in their actions. (There are always exceptions, such as loss of job, etc., in which I can see the person being allowed to continue, but I mean in general.)

 

[Earl Weiss]

Oh well, live and learn. Last question, what do you do with the certificates that you don't give out? Do you just hold them forever?

Yes. They stay on a shelf at my home along with the ones that are waiting for the year to be up. I have told my senior students that if i ever get hit by a truck, that is where they need to look for certificates.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Unless the school is part of an Association, such as ITF, Kukkiwon, etc., the certificate is like a "Menkyo" of old from Japan. It gives that person the "right" to teach at that level as defined in the certificate.

The kyu/dan system is really not comparable to the menkyo system and dan grades do not equate to teaching authority, and a first dan has none at all.

Daniel

 

[Twin Fist]

i cannot express within the rules how much i disagree with policies like Earl's

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

i cannot express within the rules how much i disagree with policies like Earl's

Personally, I would never implement such a policy.

To me, the certificate, be it an in house or an organizational cert, is the student's proof that they tested and passed. Proof that, should that student move, they will need if the schools in their area should ask for some proof of rank. Even for a KKW student, whose rank it could be argued, can be looked up, it is needed, as looking it up requires knowing exactly how the instructor registered it. Not to mention that it just keeps things honest in my opinion.

In Earl's case, you know it going it, so you can decide if it is something that you want to deal with or not. He has the right to institute the policy, but since the potential student is aware of it before signing up, they have the right to say, "no thank you" or "yes please" prior to committing several years to the school.

Daniel

 

[Earl Weiss]

In Earl's case, you know it going it, so you can decide if it is something that you want to deal with or not. He has the right to institute the policy, but since the potential student is aware of it before signing up, they have the right to say, "no thank you" or "yes please" prior to committing several years to the school.

Daniel

Exactly. Not withstanding vigorous disagreement noted here. AFAIAC full disclosure is the key. Nothing hidden by way of fees or requirements. Full disclosure provided in writing to all new students and for that matter any prospective students who ask. Color belt test fees range from $10.00 to $55.00. BB Starts at $150.00 for first dan because a chunk goes to the national org. Tuition for adults, 3 classes a week is $50.00 a month.

Adults training regularly test after about 3.5 years for BB. Kids usualy closer to 5 years. For 3.5 - 5 years they know about the one year probation, so they are not expecting their certificate any sooner.

There are lots of places around who award all sorts of rank easier than I do. How do I know? We see them come in when their school is to pricey and everyone can see the quality of their technique. recently to show it wasn't a matter of perspective I had an informal pattern competition with some people who transferred in. Even they agreed that their performance was not as good as my students.

Have students who I refuse to promote because their technique was not good mainly due to lack of effort, and I hear from others after they leave that they are now at XXX school and have achieved whatever belt.

So, for those prospective students who don't like the policy, have no problem with them going to the competition. But, this policy is a small piece of a much larger picture.

 

[granfire]

I think opinion about a policy can be voiced in a polite manner.

I would that I don't care much for the policy that has you wait a year before you get what's yours, however: If it's there from the beginning that that is what I am signing for on the dotted line, I can deal with it (probably wouldn't though). I think the issue people get mad about is when the rules get changed halfway through "oh, btw, I won't give you your certificate til I feel you showed you kissed my butt enough/hung around longer" etc.

It's a matter of the circumstance.
When it's clear from the start, you know what you are getting into.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Exactly. Not withstanding vigorous disagreement noted here. AFAIAC full disclosure is the key. Nothing hidden by way of fees or requirements.

I don't even vigorously disagree. It simply is not something that I would personally do. Not being a belt chaser, it would make little difference to me on a personal level. I simply find it odd. But it works for you and your students, and that is what is important.

Full discousure is, as you say, the key.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

I don't even vigorously disagree. It simply is not something that I would personally do. Not being a belt chaser, it would make little difference to me on a personal level. I simply find it odd. But it works for you and your students, and that is what is important.

Full discousure is, as you say, the key.

Daniel

I believe he was referring to TF with his statement.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I believe he was referring to TF with his statement.

Of that I am sure.

Daniel

 

[Twin Fist]

ok, I am gonna apologize in advance, sorry for what i am gonna say next

telling them you are gonna do something ****** doesnt make it any less ******.

it just makes them fools for agreeing to being treated ******

 

[miguksaram]

ok, I am gonna apologize in advance, sorry for what i am gonna say next

telling them you are gonna do something ****** doesnt make it any less ******.

it just makes them fools for agreeing to being treated ******

And how is he treating them badly? How is he cheating them? What is your reasoning behind doing it differently? Why is his way bad? Why not explain in logical not emotional terms on why you feel he is cheating them or why you feel they are fools. Not just "I've been around for 30 years and that's not right". His instructor and I believe Mst. Weiss has been around longer. So why is your way better?

I guess I'm just tired of your replies that seem to be based on nothing but "not the way I do it so your way is stupid" type attitude.

 

[Twin Fist]

being different doesnt make it wrong

being wrong makes it wrong

and this is, IMO wrong,

now since he tells them in advance, it MIGHT be legal, but it is still, IMO wrong

you go to ANY type of school, nursing, welding, truck driving, whatever, you pass, you get your cert

the cert is your proof that you passed

it isnt held to make sure you come back..

screw that

you pass, you get your cert, period, anything else is, IMO fraud and theft

i have never seen ANYONE do this sort of crap.

now i have seen people do "probationary" black belts, but you still get your cert, and then get a new cert after the probation is up.

it isnt your business if they keep training, that is up to them, and and frankly, you have no business holding thier certs if they passed thier tests.

this is my opinion and i am entitled to it

 

[Archtkd]

ok, I am gonna apologize in advance, sorry for what i am gonna say next

telling them you are gonna do something ****** doesnt make it any less ******.

it just makes them fools for agreeing to being treated ******

Would it make any difference to you if the instructor said instead of the normal three years it takes 4 years to get a BB at my school. Simply, would adding a year to the normal period (if there is such a thing) be better than withholding the certificate?

 

[andyjeffries]

you go to ANY type of school, nursing, welding, truck driving, whatever, you pass, you get your cert

While I'm not medically trained, I understood that doctors (for example) had to complete a number of exams and then do n years as a Registrar before being qualified. How is that different?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_practitioner#United_Kingdom

They pass their tests then have to spend some time proving themselves before they are allowed out on their own in to the big wide world as a doctor. Sounds fairly similar to Earl's process.

Sure, Earl could give them a bit of paper in the end of their test that says "You passed your first Dan test, congratulations! Now you serve your one year's residency before being a qualified first Dan".

Don't get me wrong, I would prefer to give students their certificate when they pass - if they aren't ready for it they don't pass, if they are likely to quit straight afterwards that's their business - but Earl's up front about it and I don't think he's doing anything morally wrong...