Suing for Kukkiwon Certificate

[miguksaram]

Been around long enough to know that it is not just how I function. Over thirty years in MA and I 've never seen anyone do otherwise. Apparently, the notion of doing otherwise is not common, as you seem to be the only one suggesting it.

Congrats on being around for 30 years. That has been the same for me. And the method is more common than you think. There are a lot of independent schools out there that have no affiliation with organizations. There are some that will only issue dan certs from their own school and give you options for KKW, or AKA or whatever.

Do you? And if so, how much is your first dan test and how much are you charging for the belt and registration?

A) No I do not do it that way. However, I know of schools that do
B) At our school we charge $200.00 for 1st Dan. That includes a belt and A.K.A. BB Cert.

And again, in this scenario, the student has still paid for the cert. They just paid it as a separate fee, which make the whole thing semantics. So you do not own the certificate, nor does your school, as you contend here:

In either scenario, they paid the fee for the certificate. Your name is not on your student's KKW cert. It is issued to your student. You cannot claim ownership of it and it is not at the discretion of the teacher.

Daniel

This just goes back to what I trying to say is that the instructor should honor the understood agreement they have with the student. If that means they need to provide a cert after testing, then so be it. If that means the cert is dependent on the student's activities after the test ok.

Just because the student has his name on the cert doesn't mean it is his. If I had the clout, and money, to promote Glenn to 8th dan and did it, then not give it to him, he can not say it is his if he never paid for it. Now he could go to KKW and get a copy of it and has every right to do so.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Just because the student has his name on the cert doesn't mean it is his. If I had the clout, and money, to promote Glenn to 8th dan and did it, then not give it to him, he can not say it is his if he never paid for it. Now he could go to KKW and get a copy of it and has every right to do so.

That is a different discussion. My comments regarding the name on the cert were paired with that of the school having charged the student a fee for the cert.

As far as independent schools go, I addressed that in my response to Terry.

However, this is a thread about KKW certificates, not indy schools' in house certs. I have several of those: my HKD and kumdo certs are both essentially school certificates. I also have a dojang-dan TKD certificate as well as a KKW cert. The two are different ranks (school cert is higher) but in TKD conversations, I generally always refer to my KKW cert and rank.

In an independent school, the student is charged a fee for the test, which most likely includes the certificate (cost to an independent school for the cert is minimal) and the belt.

This just goes back to what I trying to say is that the instructor should honor the understood agreement they have with the student. If that means they need to provide a cert after testing, then so be it. If that means the cert is dependent on the student's activities after the test ok.

Assuming that it is agreed upon at the outset, I have no problem with a probationary witholding of the cert. I specifically did not comment on Earl's method because regardless of what I think of it (neutral to the idea), he is being fair and ethical about his implementation of it.

But if you are going to invoke all of this 'master/student' relationship stuff as your reason why it is not a business transaction, then you need to take the business out of the transaction.

In other words, don't charge for a test.

If schools did not charge for their tests, then there would be no such issues as those detailed in this thread.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

I am sorry Terry, but this is blatantly wrong unless your school does not process dan certs through an organization, and yours does.

If you charge more than the cost of a Kukkiwon first dan certificate (seventy dollars if I recall) and a belt (embroidered blackbelts are fifteen to twenty dollars cost to the school, baring some high end belt such as an Eosin Panther belt), then they very much are paying for the belt and certificate.

If you wish to contend that they only pay to test, then don't charge testing fees. Otherwise, you have no moral or ethical, and I suspect legal, grounds to stand on if you choose to withold a certificate.

Daniel

Daniel let me say this again, at my school they have a choice of certificates: One would be an ordinary house certificate because they do not wish to be certified though any org. and that is part of my testing fee of $150.00. For that they get a new belt uniform and house certificate, which really means little to any other school so for me it is like not giving one. So they are paying for the test, uniform and belt. Then if they want a KKW they need to pay the KKW not me so once again in my eyes I am not recieving money for a certificate, just the test,uniform and belt. Lastly the may want an AAU certificate once again they pay the AAU Tae kwon do program, me the paid for the test, uniform and belt.

You see that is what I am saying they do not pay me for a certificate they pay me for the test, uniform and belt and my house cert. which is worth something to me and them but nobody else. I hope I made mayself more understandable this way.

I do not see my myself as an issuer of certificates just the person giving the test for those testing.:asian:

 

[Archtkd]

Another thing is that people change over time. An individual that I know who instructs was a very different person eight years ago. He does all the things he swore he'd never do as an instructor. The change has come mainly over the last four years as the economy has been poor and he has had some personal issues. Nothing that anyone is going to sue him for; he's a little slow on the draw with association certificates, but he always tells people that they will receive it within six months and they always do.

But the way that he runs his school now is such that I would never send anyone to him, whereas eight years ago, his school was a fantastic place to train and I used to send people his way all the time (he teaches an art that I do not practice). Now, it is a glorified daycare center and the adult program has disintegrated as he teaches less and less, often handing the classes off to first and second dan teens, many of whom he skipped past the last couple of belts in order to promote them because he had a staffing need.

The man is a good man and he certainly knows his stuff. But the pressures of poor economy, more than one school, and some personal issues (nothing sensational) have caused a major shift in his priorities.

I suspect that new adult students see what he is about and shy away

I know an excellent Korean Taekwondoin who's like the teacher you describe. I can't tell precisely what changed him, but I suspect it's a suburban market that kept demanding mediocre, soft, "everybody must win" training in exchange for higher and higher certifications. He got tired of being shouted at by monied parents who claimed he was pushing kids too hard. He was worn down by adults who kept thinking the dojang is just another health club and treating him like a fitness instructor who spots weights for you and hands out towels. He finally discovered he could make money without doing any real work and charge higher fees for his own basement certificates. (Nobody seemed to mind when he quit recommending Kukkiwon certificates). Sad, sad, but a lot of people out there are helping to destroy good teachers and then complaining.

 

[Twin Fist]

i aint never heard of any of this BS either, and I have been around since Reagan's first term in office

this is nothing but robbery

you go to ANY type of school, and you pass, and they wont give you your certification? you can sue them.

this is no different

and YES< i consider my students customers, they aint friends and i dont want any disciples, they are customers paying me for a service.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Daniel let me say this again, at my school they have a choice of certificates: One would be an ordinary house certificate because they do not wish to be certified though any org. and that is part of my testing fee of $150.00. For that they get a new belt uniform and house certificate, which really means little to any other school so for me it is like not giving one. So they are paying for the test, uniform and belt. Then if they want a KKW they need to pay the KKW not me so once again in my eyes I am not recieving money for a certificate, just the test,uniform and belt. Lastly the may want an AAU certificate once again they pay the AAU Tae kwon do program, me the paid for the test, uniform and belt.

You see that is what I am saying they do not pay me for a certificate they pay me for the test, uniform and belt and my house cert. which is worth something to me and them but nobody else. I hope I made mayself more understandable this way.

I do not see my myself as an issuer of certificates just the person giving the test for those testing.:asian:

It isn't a question of how you see yourself.

If you (the general you) are willing to test them, then there is no reason to withold a certificate. If you have a policy that a student who passes their test gets a certificate, then if they pass the test, then you owe them a certificate.

You're charging them 150.00. Between an embroidered belt, a dobok, and a certificate, you are probably still netting one hundred dollars (assuming that you have a wholesale account). Why the mentality that a certificate is somehow not a part of that fee? For an in house dan, you have zero paperwork to process. Certificates come off of a printer. Or from Office Depot with a nice glossy appearance, but minimal expense.

The mentality that you, even if you never exercise it, have some kind of weird right to hold their belt and certificate over their heads after you charge them more than a months tuition for a test that is certainly not a month long is puzzling.

Again, if you want to be able to hold that stuff over their heads, then don't charge for the test. At that point, you have given the student everything that they have paid for (how ever many years of training) and you owe them nothing.

If they want a KKW cert, and you are asking only for the filing fee from them, then they are still paying it. The fact that you are collecting it separately does not change that, and at that point, you owe them the certificate and have no good reason to hold it over their head (barring some kind of prearranged agreement as Earl does). If you pay the filing fee, and refuse to take money from them for it, then that is a different story, but according to you, that is not the case, as you require them to pay for it.

I have no doubt that you are very, very above board with your students, and I hold you in very high regard. But the mentality that you and other express regarding testing and fees is severely flawed and is likely part of what gives rise to situations similar to the one discussed in the OP where an instructor was proud to have kept over fifty students from receiving their certificates.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I know an excellent Korean Taekwondoin who's like the teacher you describe. I can't tell precisely what changed him, but I suspect it's a suburban market that kept demanding mediocre, soft, "everybody must win" training in exchange for higher and higher certifications. He got tired of being shouted at by monied parents who claimed he was pushing kids too hard. He was worn down by adults who kept thinking the dojang is just another health club and treating him like a fitness instructor who spots weights for you and hands out towels. He finally discovered he could make money without doing any real work and charge higher fees for his own basement certificates. (Nobody seemed to mind when he quit recommending Kukkiwon certificates). Sad, sad, but a lot of people out there are helping to destroy good teachers and then complaining.

I am 99% positive that that is the case with the gent that I know.

Daniel

 

[Twin Fist]

The mentality that you, even if you never exercise it, have some kind of weird right to hold their belt and certificate over their heads after you charge them more than a months tuition for a test that is certainly not a month long is puzzling.

that aint what i call it, but then you are a nicer guy than me

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

i aint never heard of any of this BS either, and I have been around since Reagan's first term in office

this is nothing but robbery

you go to ANY type of school, and you pass, and they wont give you your certification? you can sue them.

this is no different

and YES< i consider my students customers, they aint friends and i dont want any disciples, they are customers paying me for a service.

Indeed.

Unless you are teaching for free or on some kind of non-profit basis, where they are essentially contributing only to the cost of the space, then students are customers paying for a service.

And even if an instructor does not see it that way, I will guarantee that if your tuition is in line with or higher than that of other schools in your area, your students consider themselves your customers too.

Also, regardless of how you perceive it, if your student takes you to court over a KKW cert, or any other cert, that is how the legal system will see your relationship to your students as well.

Daniel

 

[dancingalone]

But the mentality that you and other express regarding testing and fees is severely flawed and is likely part of what gives rise to situations similar to the one discussed in the OP where an instructor was proud to have kept over fifty students from receiving their certificates.

My 2 cents: if the student has met the requirements for their rank, including any mandatory testing, then give them the certificate if it is part of your offering. No need to hold it over them for future good behavior...if you are sufficiently wary about a student where you need a 'probationary period', I would just keep them at brown/red until I deem them deserving of their rank.

On another note, my own teacher and his direct students, such as myself, have collectively awarded dan ranks in the hundreds. But we have approved only around 30 or so 'instructor' licenses. Perhaps this type of higher qualification is what people are thinking about partially in their minds when holding back certificates for intangible reasons outside of a belt test?

 

[miguksaram]

i aint never heard of any of this BS either, and I have been around since Reagan's first term in office

this is nothing but robbery

you go to ANY type of school, and you pass, and they wont give you your certification? you can sue them.

this is no different

and YES< i consider my students customers, they aint friends and i dont want any disciples, they are customers paying me for a service.

Yes, you can sue them...doesn't mean you will win. BTW...been in it since Carter's last term.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

that aint what i call it, but then you are a nicer guy than me

Unless Terry were to actually exercise that mentality, it is all academic.

A school owner can believe that he is the reincarnation of Musashi and that his students are the reincarnation of Musashi's vanquished opponents who are doomed to do eternal penance by learning from Musashi's reincarnation in all their future lives.

But unless he starts challenging them to mortal combat, he can believe as he wishes.

Regarding the mentalitiy of 'I'm charging for a test and not a cert,' be it in house or organizational, it is in my opinion, a flawed way of thinking. Obviously, Terry is not the only one who has expressed that. And it seems that aside from Earl, who has a method to what he is doing and tells you about it before you ever set foot on the mat, nobody who feels that way and is participating in this conversation actually does this, though they seem to feel that it is acceptable.

Meaning no disrespect to those who think that this is okay, it reminds me of the smug superiority exhibited by college professors who have spent way too many years in acedemia and not enough with people who are neither other professors or students.

As for Earl's method, I can accept it because he is upfront about it. It would make me pause before signing the dotted line, so to speak, but it would not make me automatically pass over his school; my only goal in attending a school is to learn, not to acquire belts. I'd simply have to accept that part of receiving one's first dan cert from him is sticking it out for a year after the initial test (or perhaps as part of the test?).

His policy is not one that I would implement, but because he tells his students upfront, I simply see it as peculiar.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Yes, you can sue them...doesn't mean you will win.

But if you end up in small claims court and there isn't some weird black belt pre-nup such as what Earl describes, you probably will.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

My 2 cents: if the student has met the requirements for their rank, including any mandatory testing, then give them the certificate if it is part of your offering. No need to hold it over them for future good behavior...if you are sufficiently wary about a student where you need a 'probationary period', I would just keep them at brown/red until I deem them deserving of their rank.

Hard to collect a test fee that way.

On another note, my own teacher and his direct students, such as myself, have collectively awarded dan ranks in the hundreds. But we have approved only around 30 or so 'instructor' licenses. Perhaps this type of higher qualification is what people are thinking about partially in their minds when holding back certificates for intangible reasons outside of a belt test?

Doesn't sound like it. We're talking about pum certs is some cases. And those who think this way are quite clear that they are talking about first dan/pum, not about a higher grade.

Daniel

 

[granfire]

I think you missed the point I was trying to make, which was I would never sue my instructors because they would never do this sort of thing to me. As for receiving what you already paid for, he already got that, which was the training.

Back in high school, I was taking kung fu from this certain instructor. I learned a lot of things, which lead me to other things, the end result being that I developed a specific methodology for developing concepts and techniques, which I still follow today. I did make it to the 3rd level in the style, but quit soon after taking that test. I never received my certificate, even though some of my classmates did receive theirs. It didn't bother me because I got what I came for, which was the knowledge that the teacher possessed. I still see this teacher around, at the store, or the mall or the gas station, or where ever, every couple of years or so, and when I do, it is always very pleasant and we are reminded of that time so many years ago. Some were very angry at him because they felt that he held back a lot of information, and one of my seniors (who later became my teacher as well when he opened his own school) went so far as to bring the head instructor of our style to Hawaii to have my original teacher forcibly removed from the organization.

I certainly don't harbor any resentment for not getting my certificate (didn't get my 2nd level certificate either), mainly because I am grateful for what was given to me, which was a methodology which I still carry with me today, something that I could not have developed without the assistance and teachings for the first teacher. He helped me immensely, with or without those certificates.

That scenario is different from the originally stated one.
I suppose the lessons you learned reach much farther than a piece of paper.

However, I find the general mindset a little, no actually a lot disturbing. but in all fairness I have seen similar in other recreational aspects as well.

Normally sane and educated, smart people let themselves get taken advantage of for the sake of 'loyalty' when non is coming back into their direction.

All a certificate is is a piece of pretty paper saying that on such day to fulfilled the requirements to attain a certain rank.
In itself it has no value past a couple pennies worth of paper and ink.

We fill it with meaning, depending on the stated achievement.

However, since this also has a certain monetary value attached to it in our way of doing things it has become the target for the unsavory.

I have not read all replies, so if I mention a practice of yours (general TKD board population) it is not meant to be personal:

Once the test is done and the check is cleared there is no reason to not hand over the certificate.
No probationary time, no loyalty.
fee paid, services rendered.
I do, for the life of me not understand people who agree to tests of loyalty in this setting. Usually the ones expecting loyalty are the ones who sell you out in a new york minute! I fail to see the honor in keeping the certificate.

The only time I can see it happening (and only barely) is when it has been agreed upon before the pen meets the paper. Or something like 'we test in spring and present certificates at the year end banquet'

But generally speaking, when the goods are paid for, they ought to be delivered in a timely fashion.

 

[puunui]

Once the test is done and the check is cleared there is no reason to not hand over the certificate. No probationary time, no loyalty. fee paid, services rendered.

In my kung fu example, there was no test fee. We were never charged for any tests. Perhaps my original instructor still has my certificates, I don't know.

 

[puunui]

First and foremost. The one year probation for first dan is not a USTF policy. It is my policy. Something developed by my instructor over 30 years ago, and adopted by me over 20 years ago. No probationary period or holding of certificates for 2nd Dan.

What is the purpose of the one year probationary period? Is it an attempt to keep student around past 1st Dan? If so, what is the percentage of students quitting soon after completing the probationary period and receiving their 1st Dan certificate? Trying to find out if the probationary period gets people to stay longer after they receive their certificate or not.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

In my kung fu example, there was no test fee. We were never charged for any tests. Perhaps my original instructor still has my certificates, I don't know.

If you are not charging your students for tests then, as I said to Terry, the entire issue becomes moot.

It is only when test fees, often hundres of dollars worth (sometimes over a grand) are attached to a first dan/pum test that it becomes an issue.

Daniel

 

[terryl965]

OK Daniel I am going to try this one more time never said I do not issue certificates. I said I issue my house certs, a uniform and a new belt. By the way the belt and uniform cost me about $70.00 I buy them a very nice Nike, Adidas or one of there choice, not a everyday one for $15.00 but that is another story. You are right the house cert cost maybe .30 cents with ink, that is why I say I do not issue certifcates because it is the KKW or AAU that does the actual issuering of certificates, when i recieve them I pass them out the same day I see them, but I do not test for a certificate for the KKW or AAU. My standerds are higher than theres and so forth but if anybody wants one I am happy to make sure they get them without charging them one extra penny for them.

Last thing I completely see where you are coming from but for some reason you cannot understand what I am saying, my house cert would most likely not be accepted in most places so to me I tested them on material and made sure they are able to preform that material anywhere if they choose too. It is a matter of semantics but it is my opinion that I do not test for a cert. Certficates are issued by either the KKW or AAU and they process and send them to me, plan and simple.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

OK Daniel I am going to try this one more time never said I do not issue certificates. I said I issue my house certs, a uniform and a new belt. By the way the belt and uniform cost me about $70.00 I buy them a very nice Nike, Adidas or one of there choice, not a everyday one for $15.00 but that is another story. You are right the house cert cost maybe .30 cents with ink, that is why I say I do not issue certifcates because it is the KKW or AAU that does the actual issuering of certificates, when i recieve them I pass them out the same day I see them, but I do not test for a certificate for the KKW or AAU. My standerds are higher than theres and so forth but if anybody wants one I am happy to make sure they get them without charging them one extra penny for them.

Just to make sure that I am getting what you are saying, you will furnish a KKW or AAU cert and not charge them anything additional over your $150.00? Your previous post had indicated that they would have to pay extra. It doesn't matter to me; you're certainly not ripping them off in either scenario.

Last thing I completely see where you are coming from but for some reason you cannot understand what I am saying, my house cert would most likely not be accepted in most places so to me I tested them on material and made sure they are able to preform that material anywhere if they choose too.

I certainly do understand what you are saying. And I said what you just said:

It is a matter of semantics

but it is my opinion that I do not test for a cert. Certficates are issued by either the KKW or AAU and they process and send them to me, plan and simple.

Again, this is exactly what I said. Understand, that I was not faulting your practice or how you handle certs and tests with your students. If it seems that that is what I was doing, I apologize.

What I disagreed with was your premise that certificates issued by an regulating body (the KKW or the AAU in your case) are at the school's discretion unless you are not charging them a fee for said certificate. Your previous post indicated that if they wanted a KKW or AAU cert that they would have to pay extra. Which, as I said, is perfectly fine; 150.00 for a test, house cert, black belt, and a nice dobok plus $70.00 for KKW registration is more than fair.

But if they pay the school the registration fee in addition to the testing fee, then that cert is not at the school's discretion at that point.

Regarding in house certificates, they are in house certificates and you can set whatever policy you deem appropriate. As I stated earlier, though, if a school's regular practice is to issue a certificate to the student upon their successfully completing the test, then there is no good reason to withold the certificate.

Daniel