Suing for Kukkiwon Certificate

[puunui]

That is a toughie. I do agree that a student has an obligation to do research into the place that they are going to train, but, the level of specific research and the information that you and I can pick up right off the bat is much more informative than what a new student can. That difference becomes even greater when it is a parent shopping for the student and not the student themselves. Daniel

I don't know, I think my parents and grandfather did a pretty good job of selecting my early teachers. What they did was go with people that they knew for a long time, and they also asked my uncle (who lived next door to us), who had been involved in the martial arts as well. They had no idea who was good and who was not, but instead they asked people who they trusted.

 

[granfire]

I would never sue my instructor for anything. Certainly not for a certificate.

Hmm, come on over, bring a wad of money...I am sure I can teach you something...

If he/she screws you over....why roll over and play dead and let them get away with?

Having to suck up to somebody to receive what you already paid for...sure fire way to lose my loyalty!

 

[Archtkd]

AFAIAC committing to active training for a year after the BB test is part of completing the requirements. Yes, it forces them to see there is something beyond the first dan test, and you (as well as they) grasp that from Day one this is part of the deal. No surprises.
I have not made an exception for people moving. They need to find some way to accomplish the commitment (They can train at another school) and will extend the probationary period indefinitely until that happens. I think one guy got his certificate after several years. Perhaps a few disappeared and asked for a certificate. But most never ask if they stop training.

That we have now come to a stage where we need to master how to battle our teachers in legal court, while the teach us how to fight on the streets and mats, is sad. I see no problem with the above, though. If Master Weiss' students clearly understand what they are getting into and sign paperwork to that effect, what's the issue to sue about. Many Kukkiwon practioners here are writing as if there are laid down hard and fast rules, enforceable in American courts, that regulate how, when and why they should recommend students for Dan certification or how much they should charge. There's are no such things.

The story would be very different if an instructor trained and then charged a student $3,000 for a Kukkiwon Poom certificate, which they then ddn't deliver that's a different story.

 

[puunui]

There you go again... that impressive psychic ability that allows you to perceive more than the average bear.

impressive psychic ability has nothing to do with it.

Could it be that you just are one of the LUCKY ones that got good instructors that didnt screw you?

No, I don't believe in the concept of luck, at least as it relates to the selection of a martial arts teacher. Instead, I believe in choice, because that concept allows me to take responsibility for my life. Luck, blaming others for one's situation etc. are rationalizations or attitudes which reinforce the idea that we are not in control of our own lives, that someone or something else is the cause of our woes.

For example, if I remember your situation correctly, you were with your instructor for 18 years, teaching classes, and he promised you that one day he would give you the school. He then reneged on his promise, which made you angry. If I were in your situation, or rather, when I was in your situation, I think that 18 years in the same school is too long, that anything past 3rd or 4th Dan is too long, and I would have opened up my own school on my own, which you eventually did anyway. If in the future, your instructor did end up giving you his school, terrific, but if he didn't then no harm no foul because you had your own school, which you built yourself.

An analogy would be your parents promise to give you their house. you move out of your parent's house and buy your own house, then you make that yours. If your parents still end up giving you their house (which may or may not be better than the house you bought on your own), great. If they don't, then it doesn't matter because you already have your own house. And if they change their mind and give their house to your sister instead, well, it's their money and they can do whatever they want with it.

Or you can live in your parent's house, living on the promise that they will give your their house. At some point, they sell the house and/or give their money to your younger sister, at which point, you have no house and you get very angry, at your parents and sister.

Which is the healthier perspective?

 

[Twin Fist]

any instructor that pulled this crap would be told to kiss every square inch of my ***.

Since this has come up several times let me give you some input from experience. We have several instructors in my area/state who "withhold" certificates from students who have passed their tests and have paid for their tests. We also have those who have not applied for certificates for those who have paid for them. When those people come to me I have helped them get their certificates. If their certificate has been applied for and the instructor has been "holding" it that makes it easy. I can apply for a duplicate certificate through the Kukkiwon for a very cheap fee. I think the last time it was $35.
Several times the people have chosen to take the instructors in question to small claims court. It is inexpensive to do this. In ALL cases they have come out the winner. Its very simple. The judge asks the instructor if the student paid for the test. The instructor says yes (hard to say no when you have a canceled check and they know it), the judge asks if they are Kukkiwon certified (again hard to say no when its all over their website that they are), the judge asks them were their certificate is? They come up with all kinds of stupid things here but in the end the judge gives them two choices... give them the certificate or give them their money back. In the one case that I was a "witness" in the instructor refused to give them the certificate so he chose to give them their test fee back ($550 he charged them) He then tore up the certificate in front of the student and walked out. I patted her on the back and laughed, and got her a duplicate within two weeks for $35. Now this was the same guy who stood up in front of the judge with what looked to be about 50 certificates and was rather proud of the fact that he was "holding" all of them until the students "proved" their loyalty to him.
Bottom line: If you were promised it, you paid for it, you earned it then you deserve it. Dont settle for anything else and dont let them get by with cheating you out of it.

 

[Twin Fist]

FWIW I withold ist Dan certs for a year. On the first day of class, each new student recieves a student handbook. The last page is my Liability waiver, photo release, covenant not to sue. That is filled out, signed, torn off and given to me.

and I would tell you to kiss my butt too...

if i test, and pass that cert is MINE. I paid for it, and there is NO reason to hold onto it other than to make sure you can get more dues out of them.

screw that

 

[puunui]

Hmm, come on over, bring a wad of money...I am sure I can teach you something...

If he/she screws you over....why roll over and play dead and let them get away with?

Having to suck up to somebody to receive what you already paid for...sure fire way to lose my loyalty!

I think you missed the point I was trying to make, which was I would never sue my instructors because they would never do this sort of thing to me. As for receiving what you already paid for, he already got that, which was the training.

Back in high school, I was taking kung fu from this certain instructor. I learned a lot of things, which lead me to other things, the end result being that I developed a specific methodology for developing concepts and techniques, which I still follow today. I did make it to the 3rd level in the style, but quit soon after taking that test. I never received my certificate, even though some of my classmates did receive theirs. It didn't bother me because I got what I came for, which was the knowledge that the teacher possessed. I still see this teacher around, at the store, or the mall or the gas station, or where ever, every couple of years or so, and when I do, it is always very pleasant and we are reminded of that time so many years ago. Some were very angry at him because they felt that he held back a lot of information, and one of my seniors (who later became my teacher as well when he opened his own school) went so far as to bring the head instructor of our style to Hawaii to have my original teacher forcibly removed from the organization.

I certainly don't harbor any resentment for not getting my certificate (didn't get my 2nd level certificate either), mainly because I am grateful for what was given to me, which was a methodology which I still carry with me today, something that I could not have developed without the assistance and teachings for the first teacher. He helped me immensely, with or without those certificates.

 

[puunui]

Exactly, how does a complete beginner knowing nothing about martial arts tell a good instructor from a bad one?

The fact that you don't know the answer to a question doesn't necessarily mean that everyone doesn't know the answer either.

 

[puunui]

First and foremost. The one year probation for first dan is not a USTF policy. It is my policy. Something developed by my instructor over 30 years ago, and adopted by me over 20 years ago.

I give the certificate as soon as I get them. I don't believe in withholding them for a length of time. If they quit soon thereafter, oh well. If they stay, great.

 

[puunui]

With the exception of experienced practitioners, most of those signing up for MA lessons are not martial arts instructors.

Some of the people complaining the loudest on here are experienced practitioners. One claims 30 years in Taekwondo, and another is a Goju Ryu 3rd Dan.

Again, I do agree, and have commented in the past, that people are remiss in their research into MA schools. Consumers will put more effort into researching a toaster for a good deal than they will in their choice of school.

I think for beginners, this is ok for the most part. I think that most schools can give you at least the basics of the art. But if you are seeking more, then perhaps it is time to choose another teacher, after 1st Dan. I read an article in Psychology Today a long time ago about the development of masters. It talked about mastery in any field, and explained that masters tend to follow the same general path. Included in that path was the selection of three different teachers, depending on the stage of development of the student. I think most of today's issues have to do with students staying too long or expecting too much from their level 1 teacher. When you are in high school, you learn from high school teachers. When you are in college, you have different types of teachers, and often times you have to move away and/or travel long distances to study with them. I think it is a waste to see someone who is your Ph.D thesis advisor teaching preschool students their ABCs, in the same way that I think it is a waste to expect your high school english teacher to be a very good Ph.D advisor.

However, each of us is responsible for our own actions. Martial arts instructors also preach about honesty and integrity. The tenets of one of the larger taekwondo federations actually include such virtues, and many schools do adopt them, even if they are not part of that federation. They are responsible for their actions when those actions are dishonest or underhanded in some way. The fact that the student may be gullible or ignorant does not change that in any way.

I leave the job of exposing my teacher's weaknesses or undeveloped areas or areas that they are working on for other people. Personally, I choose not to scream angrily on a public message board about all the bad things my teacher (or for that matter my parents) did to me, or what I thought they did to me.

Another thing is that people change over time. An individual that I know who instructs was a very different person eight years ago. He does all the things he swore he'd never do as an instructor. The change has come mainly over the last four years as the economy has been poor and he has had some personal issues. Nothing that anyone is going to sue him for; he's a little slow on the draw with association certificates, but he always tells people that they will receive it within six months and they always do. But the way that he runs his school now is such that I would never send anyone to him, whereas eight years ago, his school was a fantastic place to train and I used to send people his way all the time (he teaches an art that I do not practice). Now, it is a glorified daycare center and the adult program has disintegrated as he teaches less and less, often handing the classes off to first and second dan teens, many of whom he skipped past the last couple of belts in order to promote them because he had a staffing need. The man is a good man and he certainly knows his stuff. But the pressures of poor economy, more than one school, and some personal issues (nothing sensational) have caused a major shift in his priorities.

Sounds like he did the same thing Hattori Hanzo did in Kill Bill 1, closed the sword making school down and instead opened up a sushiya.

 

[puunui]

Unfortunately not everyone is gifted with your obvious psychic ability.

Obvious psychic ability has nothing to with it.

If there is a substantiated school that has been in business for a period of time most people who are new to martial arts have no clue as to what questions to ask or what to look for when they walk in the door. For that matter the school could have opened yesterday and 99% of the new people walking in the door still would not know what questions to ask and what to look for. In 31 years I have had all of 3 people ask about my certification that actually knew what it meant and that was because they had previous experience. Many new people dont know if a first degree outranks a 7th degree or visa versa. So how can you say them getting screwed by an unscrupulous instructor is partly their fault.

The fact that only 3 people in 31 years asked about your certification should give you a clue as to how much they care about their own certification, which puts your whole premise that they were "screwed" into question.

Thats like saying you knew there was a chance the plane was going to crash so it was your fault you took the flight.

It's more like saying if you need a plumber do you go with a referral from someone you know, or do you give the gypsie who knocks on your door and asks for huge cash up front a chance?

But actually, we do take a risk every time we get on an airplane, and there always is that risk that the plane will crash which everyone is aware of. So in that sense, it is partially your fault for getting on the plane in the first place, if it crashes.

The way I see it, the instructor who does not turn over the Kukkiwon or whatever else certificate is playing the percentages, that the overwhelming majority will not complain about it. Using an analogy, Wal-Mart stores have highly polished floors which are very slippery if any sort of liquid gets on it. They know that the risk of slips and falls is greater than if they used some sort of other flooring, but they choose to use that highly polished floor, for whatever reason. They are willing to take the risk of someone slipping, falling and getting injured on that highly polished floor (which they wax every night around midnight) in exchange for some perceived value to them. Contrast this to a new McDonalds. Their floors are like sand paper.

 

[miguksaram]

and I would tell you to kiss my butt too...

if i test, and pass that cert is MINE. I paid for it, and there is NO reason to hold onto it other than to make sure you can get more dues out of them.

screw that

No you didn't pay for the cert. You paid for the test. Any material items that are go along with them are strictly up to the discretion of the teacher. At no time did they ever say as soon as you test you get everything the next day.

As for you saying kiss my butt...I would simply tell you not to let my door hit it on your way out.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I don't know, I think my parents and grandfather did a pretty good job of selecting my early teachers. What they did was go with people that they knew for a long time, and they also asked my uncle (who lived next door to us), who had been involved in the martial arts as well. They had no idea who was good and who was not, but instead they asked people who they trusted.

Law of averages is in your favor: most instructors are honest people. Chances are, you will end up with a reasonable person even if you do zero research.

But look at what your parents and grandfather did: they did research and went to someone who was not only trusted, but had knowledge of the martial arts. In other words, they did it correctly, and likely at a time when searching out info on the web was not an option.

On the one hand, not everyone has access to a knowledgeable person, but on the other hand, as I have stated previously, the average consumer will put more time and research into getting a good deal on a toaster than they will into researching an MA school for themselves or their kids.

Most choose based on location and schedule. After these, atmosphere and price.

Sadly, most will never get beyond those items in their 'research.'

Daniel

 

[Twin Fist]

No you didn't pay for the cert. You paid for the test. Any material items that are go along with them are strictly up to the discretion of the teacher. At no time did they ever say as soon as you test you get everything the next day.

As for you saying kiss my butt...I would simply tell you not to let my door hit it on your way out.

no

the cert is proof of the sucessfull test, and it is the property of the person testing.

if you go to college, and pass, they cant NOT give you your degree without just cause. "to prove thier loyalty" is ********, as if "to make sure they keep working out"

if they want to quit 1 day after getting thier black belt, thats thier right, an instructor has NO RIGHT to withold thier property to illicit more monthly dues

i cannot believe anyone supports or endorses this BS practice.

this aint 18th century china and we aint monks, we are customers paying for a service, and if you dont provide that service, you dont deserve that customer

 

[miguksaram]

no

the cert is proof of the sucessfull test, and it is the property of the person testing.

if you go to college, and pass, they cant NOT give you your degree without just cause. "to prove thier loyalty" is ********, as if "to make sure they keep working out"

You can not compare a college degree with a rank promotion. First and foremost it is stated when you enroll in a college that you will receive a certificate after completion of so many class hours. Unless your instructor states or has written down after you do the physical test you will receive your black belt certificate, he/she has not obligation to certify you after a test.

if they want to quit 1 day after getting thier black belt, thats thier right, an instructor has NO RIGHT to withold thier property to illicit more monthly dues

You are absolutely right. If I gave you belt and you quit...then so be it. Doesn't mean I have to give you a certificate. If I really wanted to push it I would just tell you part of your test is that you have to spend 1 year teaching as a black belt before I certify you. That is MY right as an instructor. I gave you a belt test, not a certification test.

i cannot believe anyone supports or endorses this BS practice.

this aint 18th century china and we aint monks, we are customers paying for a service, and if you dont provide that service, you dont deserve that customer

You are right...if this was 18th century this wouldn't even be a discussion because a teacher/student relationship was never about business. However since you want to treat it like a business then know that service was provided. You were taught martial arts. You were given a test and you have a belt as a reward. Congrats. Unless your contract stipulates that you will receive a piece a paper right after the test. You have nothing else to really b!tch about.

But now I'm curious, after years of working with your instructor you still view him simply as a business? Do you view your students only as customers?

 

[terryl965]

Well here come me the little engine that could: All this fuss about a certificate and no where to hide. I mean lets look at this from my perspective, I train for four years and pay my due's every month some months I am late and forget to pay the late fee's associated with the school and I bounce a couple of check as well and never paid the bad check fee's. My instructor never says anything, I pay for my Black Belt test and pass and when it is time for me to recieve my certificate he simply says you owe money to the school and he holds my certificate. Is that a big deal no not really it is just like a college where you pay to be there and lost a library book and never paid for it when ou graduate and they say you still owe money to the school so we are holding your certificate. Not a big deal because in both cases pay the fines and go about your business.

In a Martial Art enviroment we pay to be tested and expect a certificate bgut in reality you have only paid for the test. The belt and certificate is not part of the actual test but most school award them as well along with the test. I do not see a problem holding someone certifcate if that has been explain to them up front or it is in a general book of rules with the school. I believe some here are getting the two or maybe three step process mixed up. Mr. Wiess has all ready said it is his rule and his people know up front that is great because nobody is blind sided when it happens. The instructor that just refuse to deliver because they are either to cheap or just a crook are the ones I am going to talk about next.

These are the ones that have no integrity or respect for anybody and are scam artist, me I have been done in a bad way a couple of times but was it worth me getting upset over no, I simply explain to the instructor they had two choices court or giving me my money back. One simply said well you failed and that is why I did not get you your certificate, him I had nothing to say but ok and I will retest when you believe I am ready again. Go to find out he failed everybody and never delivered one certificate to alot of people in a one year period, he is curently in jail for fraud not by us but by some other person for a joint venture.

In all my years of training Ihave found more unethical TKD people than other arts I have taken, it seems like greed and a since of I am better than you really takes over when money becomes the biggest equation.

In closing whether you should or should not hold a ce\rtifcate is solely up to each school and that instructor. As far as knowing it up front when you sign up for his services. but in the end we are here to learn and a certficate should not matter except you want to be a school owner and train people or you are an elite fighter.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

You can not compare a college degree with a rank promotion. First and foremost it is stated when you enroll in a college that you will receive a certificate after completion of so many class hours. Unless your instructor states or has written down after you do the physical test you will receive your black belt certificate, he/she has not obligation to certify you after a test.


You are absolutely right. If I gave you belt and you quit...then so be it. Doesn't mean I have to give you a certificate. If I really wanted to push it I would just tell you part of your test is that you have to spend 1 year teaching as a black belt before I certify you. That is MY right as an instructor. I gave you a belt test, not a certification test.


You are right...if this was 18th century this wouldn't even be a discussion because a teacher/student relationship was never about business. However since you want to treat it like a business then know that service was provided. You were taught martial arts. You were given a test and you have a belt as a reward. Congrats. Unless your contract stipulates that you will receive a piece a paper right after the test. You have nothing else to really b!tch about.

But now I'm curious, after years of working with your instructor you still view him simply as a business? Do you view your students only as customers?

I could take what you said above a whole lot more seriously if you had not been up there on this thread, http://www.martialtalk.com//forum/showthread.php?t=95536, defending a three grand pum test (though not the failure to provide the cert) and saying this:

Yes and no. Could be plain laziness not delivering the goods. One of those things that he keeps putting off. Not saying it is justified, just might not be greed. Again I don't fault him for charging an outrageous price. He has every right as a business to charge whatever he feels like. That is beauty of capitalism. If he can get 50 people to pay him that money, then hats off to him. Greed? Maybe. As a QA Analyst for software I get a pretty decent pay. A bit more then I need for basic survival for my family. Should I tell them that I want less money because they are paying me more than I really need? I don't think so. Come next year I am going to bug the crap out of them for a raise.

You cannot have it both ways. You cannot promote the idea of MA schools charging large sums of money and their owners living large and then invoke some 18th century model of student teacher relationship. Obviously, you do believe that it is a business transaction.

Regarding your contention that the student is paying for a test and not a certificate, that is also a falacy. Part of that testing fee is the registration fee with the Kukkiwon or whatever organization you certify your students through, so you are incorrect in saying that the student has not paid for the certification.

So, yes, T/F is correct. If you charged a student money for a test and processed the paperwork, then that certificate does belong to him or her. It was issued to him or her by the Kukkiwon or other issuing organization. Nowhere on a Kukkiwon certficate do you see the school owner or instructor's name. I must thoroughly disagree with your contention that it is not the student's property.

I am not going to comment on Earl's way of handling it, as his students know up front and can choose to take the plunge or not.

I will say that the shenanigans played with tests and certificates would be considered dubious at best in most fields outside of the martial arts.

Daniel

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

In a Martial Art enviroment we pay to be tested and expect a certificate bgut in reality you have only paid for the test. The belt and certificate is not part of the actual test but most school award them as well along with the test. I do not see a problem holding someone certifcate if that has been explain to them up front or it is in a general book of rules with the school. I believe some here are getting the two or maybe three step process mixed up. Mr. Wiess has all ready said it is his rule and his people know up front that is great because nobody is blind sided when it happens. The instructor that just refuse to deliver because they are either to cheap or just a crook are the ones I am going to talk about next.

I am sorry Terry, but this is blatantly wrong unless your school does not process dan certs through an organization, and yours does.

If you charge more than the cost of a Kukkiwon first dan certificate (seventy dollars if I recall) and a belt (embroidered blackbelts are fifteen to twenty dollars cost to the school, baring some high end belt such as an Eosin Panther belt), then they very much are paying for the belt and certificate.

If you wish to contend that they only pay to test, then don't charge testing fees. Otherwise, you have no moral or ethical, and I suspect legal, grounds to stand on if you choose to withold a certificate.

Daniel

 

[miguksaram]

I could take what you said above a whole lot more seriously if you had not been up there defending a three grand pum test (though not the failure to provide the cert) and railing against anything that resembles implying that MA studio owners should not be making a comfortable, if not wealthy living.

You cannot have it both ways. You cannot promote the idea of MA schools charging large sums of money and their owners living large and then invoke some 18th century model of student teacher relationship.

The only thing I was advocating is a person's right to do LEGAL business the way they see fit. If you look back on that post I also said that I personally would not do that. However, I will not condemn someone who does it just because i do not believe in that practice.

I also do not subscribe to holding a person's certificate for one year either. However, I understand Mst. Weiss's reasoning behind it and it is his legal right to do so unless he stipulated either verbally or in writing that he would provide a certificate the moment the student passed the test. He may have already notified the students that he will not issue a certificate until one year after their test. If that is the case then the students do this knowing the end result. People are assuming that he is not letting anyone know of his plans at all.

Regarding your contention that the student is paying for a test and not a certificate, part of that testing fee is the registration fee with the Kukkiwon or whatever organization you certify your students through, so you are incorrect in saying that the student has not paid for the certification.

It may or may not be. Just because you charge the certification fee within a testing fee doesn't mean everyone does. Seems like you are basing your opinion on how you function. I can charge for a belt test, but have a separate fee for certification.

So, yes, T/F is correct. If you charged a student money for a test and processed the paperwork, then that certificate does belong to him or her. It was issued to him or her by the Kukkiwon or other issuing organization. Nowhere on a Kukkiwon certficate do you see the school owner or instructor's name. I must thoroughly disagree with your contention that it is not the student's property.

Which we have already seen example that if an instructor tells the student that they will receive a cert after payment and test AND then holds a cert after a student paid for the cert then they will be in the wrong. That is not what I'm advocating. What I am saying that if there is no promise of any certification with the testing via verbal or written, then the instructor is not obligated to give a student a certificate right after the test. They can wait for as long as they deem fit.

I am not going to comment on Earl's way of handling it, as his students know up front and can choose to take the plunge or not.

I will say that the shenanigans played with tests and certificates would be considered dubious at best in most fields outside of the martial arts.

And most places would have items stated in writing that you will receive some sort of certification after you pass their test. If this agreement was already acknowledge by both student and teacher that they will receive a cert after they pass the physical testing then, I am full agreement that the teach is in the wrong for holding it.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It may or may not be. Just because you charge the certification fee within a testing fee doesn't mean everyone does. Seems like you are basing your opinion on how you function.

Been around long enough to know that it is not just how I function. Over thirty years in MA and I 've never seen anyone do otherwise. Apparently, the notion of doing otherwise is not common, as you seem to be the only one suggesting it.

I can charge for a belt test, but have a separate fee for certification.

Do you? And if so, how much is your first dan test and how much are you charging for the belt and registration?

And again, in this scenario, the student has still paid for the cert. They just paid it as a separate fee, which make the whole thing semantics. So you do not own the certificate, nor does your school, as you contend here:

No you didn't pay for the cert. You paid for the test. Any material items that are go along with them are strictly up to the discretion of the teacher. At no time did they ever say as soon as you test you get everything the next day.

In either scenario, they paid the fee for the certificate. Your name is not on your student's KKW cert. It is issued to your student. You cannot claim ownership of it and it is not at the discretion of the teacher.

Daniel