Suing for Kukkiwon Certificate

[Daniel Sullivan]

Right, but the point I believe Andy is trying to make is that you call it a Dan-bo and someone calls it probationary black belt. They both are interim belts while you deem them fit for black. The only difference I see at this point is the fact you do not charge for it, but, then again, you do not charge for any of your belts.

Do probationary black belts not get a black belt of some kind? Either you're a black belt or you're not.

Perhaps I am thinking of the term differently than others do, but I assume that it is similar to the ATA recommended/decided, where you are testing for two separate first dans.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

Would it make any difference to you if the instructor said instead of the normal three years it takes 4 years to get a BB at my school. Simply, would adding a year to the normal period (if there is such a thing) be better than withholding the certificate?

This is a good point, one that I noticed no one addressed and/or is ignoring. In Korea, normal time to 1st Poom/1st Dan is one year, and I am pretty sure that the certificates are issued right away. So why is it ok to stretch out the color belt experience to triple, quadruple or even longer, and then give the certificate right away? Isn't doing that the same thing as waiting three years to get the certificate? Why is that ok? Personally, I don't see any difference between what Earl is doing and the others who say it takes four or five years to get a 1st Degree.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

It may be a year in Korea, but nobody in the US does it that quickly. I suspect that the time frames to black belt were established back in the sixties and seventies and mirrored that of Japanese arts that were known in the US at the time. Judo is three to four years, and I suspect that most karate styles are similar.

In any case, time to ildan in the US averages between two and four years. Not going to get into whether or not that is good or bad; it simply is what it is.

At my studio, I do not teach taekwondo, but in places where I have trained, none have deviated from two to four years, and prior to this decade, all of the places that I trained were three or four years or somewhere in between.

I suspect that a lot of the time frame in the US is due to the public perception of a black belt being nearly synonomous with a master or a champion fighter in the eyes of the general public, which will generally require more than a year or two.

Let me ask you Glenn, do you feel that one year is sufficient time prior to first dan? Not fishing for a specific answer nor do I have a right or wrong answer in mind. Just curious as to your thoughts on the subject. One other question is, was it always so in Korea?

Daniel

 

[masterchase]

Quote:
Originally Posted by miguksaram
Right, but the point I believe Andy is trying to make is that you call it a Dan-bo and someone calls it probationary black belt. They both are interim belts while you deem them fit for black. The only difference I see at this point is the fact you do not charge for it, but, then again, you do not charge for any of your belts.

Do probationary black belts not get a black belt of some kind? Either you're a black belt or you're not.

Perhaps I am thinking of the term differently than others do, but I assume that it is similar to the ATA recommended/decided, where you are testing for two separate first dans.

Daniel

We use the recommeded/decided system. Test for black belt. Get a plain black belt without any lettering. After 6 months of training, test again (a much shorter test than the original), get a belt with first and last name embroidered on one end and Blue Wave embroidered on the other end. We hold the Kukkiwon certificate until the decided testing. They are actually certified, they just don't have the piece of paper.
I'm sure this comes from our legacy of many years ago when we were an ITF association. My instructor was associated with an instructor named Myong Kil Kim in the early 70's. Maybe that's something from him? Like the quote above about the ATA? I've seen that Myong Kil Kim was involved with the ATA.

 

[Twin Fist]

what is this stuff? people either pass or they do not pass.

why do i just KNOW there is money made here somehow.......

friggin TKD has turned into a scam these days.

 

[puunui]

Let me ask you Glenn, do you feel that one year is sufficient time prior to first dan?

Yes. 1st Dan is a low rank, the lowest on a scale of one through ten. It is certainly not the top of the pyramid for me.

One other question is, was it always so in Korea?

GM LEE Chong Woo said it took him about one year to receive his 1st Dan at the Chosun Yun Moo Kwan, and I would think the YMCA Kwon Bup Bu was similar. The Moo Duk Kwan had about the same time in grade requirements, one year back in the 1940's. The Chung Do Kwan and Song Moo Kwan took about two years. All the schools were training five days per week, two hours per class. So that is about 250 hours for the Chosun Yunmookwan, YMCA Kwon Bup Bu, and Moo Duk Kwan, and about 500 hours for the Chung Do Kwan and Song Moo Kwan.

 

[puunui]

It may be a year in Korea, but nobody in the US does it that quickly. I suspect that the time frames to black belt were established back in the sixties and seventies and mirrored that of Japanese arts that were known in the US at the time. Judo is three to four years, and I suspect that most karate styles are similar. In any case, time to ildan in the US averages between two and four years. Not going to get into whether or not that is good or bad; it simply is what it is.

The reason why so many dojang have lengthened time for 1st Dan is because back in the 1950's and 1960's, many schools were started by former military personnel who came back to the United States after one year with their 1st Dan and opened up schools. But it became a problem if they promoted students to 1st Dan (which they could not do anyway), so they stretched out the time to 1st Dan. Of course, they trained twenty five hours a day, eight days per week, so they got their rank faster than what they required of their students.

Saying everyone does it in the US still doesn't change the fact that according to Kukkiwon standards, it's one year to 1st Degree. So why it is ok to stretch out the guep experience to three, four, five or more years, and then give the certificate immediately? Doesn't that still mean that you are delaying the certificate by two, three, four or more years? What is the difference between that and what Earl does? Answer: Nothing because you still end up waiting longer than you would if you followed Kukkiwon one year standard.

People need to think about that, before they choose to judge Earl for what he does.

 

[dancingalone]

We've discussed the merits or lack there of for such short promotional periods for even a first black belt before.

<shrugs> I expect that the chodan students I will produce (haven't promoted anyone to that rank in TKD yet, but I am planning for a 3.5 - 4 year span) shall be substantially better technically than the typical 1 year Korean dan. That's the way I prefer it, and I bet a lot of people will agree with me.

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Saying everyone does it in the US still doesn't change the fact that according to Kukkiwon standards, it's one year to 1st Degree. So why it is ok to stretch out the guep experience to three, four, five or more years, and then give the certificate immediately? Doesn't that still mean that you are delaying the certificate by two, three, four or more years? What is the difference between that and what Earl does? Answer: Nothing because you still end up waiting longer than you would if you followed Kukkiwon one year standard.

People need to think about that, before they choose to judge Earl for what he does.

Just for the record, I don't judge Earl's method. I find it peculiar from a logistical standpoint, but that is as far as I go with it. His policy would certainly not keep me from training with him.

Regardless, as has been said previously, you know it going in. Just as at Twin Fist's school, you know going in that you're looking at four years to black belt.

My time in grade requirements at my own studio are more a result of my having a kendo and kumdo background, where four years is the norm, but again, I am not teaching taekwondo there.

You may know, but if not, I'm sure that Earl can answer this, but in the ITF, what is the average time to ildan?

Thank you,

Daniel

 

[ralphmcpherson]

We've discussed the merits or lack there of for such short promotional periods for even a first black belt before.

<shrugs> I expect that the chodan students I will produce (haven't promoted anyone to that rank in TKD yet, but I am planning for a 3.5 - 4 year span) shall be substantially better technically than the typical 1 year Korean dan. That's the way I prefer it, and I bet a lot of people will agree with me.

I definetely agree with you. The thought of 1st dan in 1 year is just funny as far as Im concerned. If someone started a club over here and handed out black belts after 12 months they would lose all credibility and no one would want to train there. The credibility of a school is extremely important from both a martial and business point of view and no school giving out black belts in 1 year will ever gain any credibility, not in my area anyway, what they do in korea is another story.

 

[Archtkd]

The reason why so many dojang have lengthened time for 1st Dan is because back in the 1950's and 1960's, many schools were started by former military personnel who came back to the United States after one year with their 1st Dan and opened up schools. But it became a problem if they promoted students to 1st Dan (which they could not do anyway), so they stretched out the time to 1st Dan. Of course, they trained twenty five hours a day, eight days per week, so they got their rank faster than what they required of their students.

Interesting points. On a side rant, it seems to me that many new converts to certain things tend to become extremists. It's why so many of us American martial arts teachers tend to do strange things, in futile efforts to outdo our Asian teachers. We have all heard of 1st Dan tests where some people nearly died and then an instructor -- who has never been on a plane -- declare: "this is how it's done in the Korean hamlets."

We have all seen guep tests spiced with tons of rubbish that has nothing to do with Taekwondo or practical fighting. Some of the stuff makes me think of my African brothers who are recent converts to the Catholic and Anglican (Episcopalian) Churches but are now the "holy of holies" who claim to bear the cross (sometimes literary) for those Christian sects. I can also think of a number of chain smokers and heavy drinkers, who quit yesterday, and are now preaching about the unreedemable evil of big tobacco and big beer, in fiery tongues.

 

[msmitht]

I met 3 kids from korea who are all 2nd poom. They each had great technique with only 2 1/2 yrs training. No one steps, no self defense, no weapons training. Just poomsae, kibon, kyuk pa and kyoroogi. They said that they trained 2 hrs per day 5 days a week. Took 1 mont off every summer.
They were here for an exchange program. I took them to a local tourney and they destroyed their competition. Everyone thought that they had trained since birth but the truth was that this was the first time that any of them had won a medal in tkd competition. They had competed before, just never won.

 

[andyjeffries]

All the schools were training five days per week, two hours per class. So that is about 250 hours for the Chosun Yunmookwan, YMCA Kwon Bup Bu, and Moo Duk Kwan

I think this is an interesting factor...

For my club I'm planning on trying to grade the students twice per year training one hour per week. That may not work out and I may need to lengthen the period, but I think that with a regular grading date it will help focus on improvement rather than treading water for ages.

That means about 250 hours to first dan/poom.

I wonder how much it works out to for other clubs on here?

 

[andyjeffries]

Saying everyone does it in the US still doesn't change the fact that according to Kukkiwon standards, it's one year to 1st Degree...Nothing because you still end up waiting longer than you would if you followed Kukkiwon one year standard.

You say Kukkiwon standard - is this discussed on the Instructor course or is it documented anywhere? I thought the Kukkiwon didn't particularly care about Geup grades (except that they are given by Kukkiwon 4th Dans or above)...

Or is it a KTA standard that the Kukkiwon accepts - and because most promotions in the Kukkiwon for 1st Dan/Poom are from the KTA due to the number of practitioners that is the de facto standard?

People need to think about that, before they choose to judge Earl for what he does.

I'm not judging Earl. I don't personally want to issue cho dan bo or probationary black belts or hold back certificates. The reason for me is that my instructors never did this with me so it would feel very unnatural. I have a lot of respect for Earl so I'm sure he's doing what works for him and that he produces very good students. I do find it unusual/worthy of discussing though...

 

[masterchase]

what is this stuff? people either pass or they do not pass.

why do i just KNOW there is money made here somehow.......

friggin TKD has turned into a scam these days.

No scam here. The decided test fee is Zero dollars. And the embroidery on the belt is paid by me. So it actually costs me for my student for the decided test.

 

[Earl Weiss]

This is a good point, one that I noticed no one addressed and/or is ignoring. In Korea, normal time to 1st Poom/1st Dan is one year, and I am pretty sure that the certificates are issued right away. So why is it ok to stretch out the color belt experience to triple, quadruple or even longer, and then give the certificate right away? Isn't doing that the same thing as waiting three years to get the certificate? Why is that ok? Personally, I don't see any difference between what Earl is doing and the others who say it takes four or five years to get a 1st Degree.

I can't speak for others. One important difference might be that the time in grade requirement for my students begins to run with the issuance of the first dan cert. So the fact that they do not get it for a year because of the probation situation does not increase this time frame.

 

[Earl Weiss]

what is this stuff? people either pass or they do not pass.

why do i just KNOW there is money made here somehow.......

friggin TKD has turned into a scam these days.

In my case the $ is the extra year tuition at $50.00 / month. (No test, No fee, certificate just presented after a year.) Which is paid directly to the Park District . I get a % from which all expenses including insurance is paid. Since the time in grade requirement runs from the date of the test if they test for second dan then there is no extra $.

 

[Earl Weiss]

You may know, but if not, I'm sure that Earl can answer this, but in the ITF, what is the average time to ildan?

Thank you,

Daniel

I could only guesstimate it's in the 3-4 year range. I have seen a trend with some eastern European students who spend a long time at red belt to compete at that level.

 

[Twin Fist]

Earl,
while i think what you do is crappy, at least your honest about it.

 

[granfire]

I can't speak for others. One important difference might be that the time in grade requirement for my students begins to run with the issuance of the first dan cert. So the fact that they do not get it for a year because of the probation situation does not increase this time frame.

In my case the $ is the extra year tuition at $50.00 / month. (No test, No fee, certificate just presented after a year.) Which is paid directly to the Park District . I get a % from which all expenses including insurance is paid. Since the time in grade requirement runs from the date of the test if they test for second dan then there is no extra $.

That means for all intend and purposes they are full 1st dan...just without the paper...