Suing for Kukkiwon Certificate

[Tez3]

There you go again... that impressive psychic ability that allows you to perceive more than the average bear. Could it be that you just are one of the LUCKY ones that got good instructors that didnt screw you?

Exactly, how does a complete beginner knowing nothing about martial arts tell a good instructor from a bad one? Even the most astute have been caught out by instructors who have ripped them off, it usually takes a meeting or conversation with a martial artist who trains under someone else, often on here, before people realise that their instructor isn't all he/she should be. In the case of withholding certificates, everything may have been fine up till that point however, taking money for something and then not handing over that something is fraud.

 

[Earl Weiss]

. In the case of withholding certificates, everything may have been fine up till that point however, taking money for something and then not handing over that something is fraud.

FWIW I withold ist Dan certs for a year. On the first day of class, each new student recieves a student handbook. The last page is my Liability waiver, photo release, covenant not to sue. That is filled out, signed, torn off and given to me.

In thehandbook , among other things are testing parameters including fees to be charged thru 3rd Dan. (With a disclaimer for possible periodic price increases) and the first dan one year probationary period is disclosed as well.

So, the issue is not so much witholding, but not delivering as promised.

As an attorney if someone came to me with an issue like this I would need more 411. If in fact what was promised was not delivered I might write a letter and see what shakes loose. It would cost too much to hire me to file suit and having the stuent pursue a small claim might be a good idea. Referring them to the State Attorney General for a consumer fraud investigation would be more cost effective and better for all potential victims.

 

[Tez3]

FWIW I withold ist Dan certs for a year. On the first day of class, each new student recieves a student handbook. The last page is my Liability waiver, photo release, covenant not to sue. That is filled out, signed, torn off and given to me.

In thehandbook , among other things are testing parameters including fees to be charged thru 3rd Dan. (With a disclaimer for possible periodic price increases) and the first dan one year probationary period is disclosed as well.

So, the issue is not so much witholding, but not delivering as promised.

As an attorney if someone came to me with an issue like this I would need more 411. If in fact what was promised was not delivered I might write a letter and see what shakes loose. It would cost too much to hire me to file suit and having the stuent pursue a small claim might be a good idea. Referring them to the State Attorney General for a consumer fraud investigation would be more cost effective and better for all potential victims.

Sounds fair. If everyone knows where they stand there's far less chance of misunderstandings. I'm not sure about the 'no sue' clause though, I don't know American law of course but here the chances are that won't be valid under a lot of circumstances especially in the health and safety aspects. It's something we have to deal with on MMA shows, many promoters make fighters sign a waiver but it's not actually valid it just leads people to think they can't sue.
Here we have the Trading Standards Office where we can go if we believe we've been defrauded etc. Hiring solicitors is expensive here too!

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

I would never sue any of my instructors.... because they would never do anything that would cause me harm. I read all these stories and think to myself if people spent just a little more time in the selection of their teachers, then more people wouldn't find themselves in these types of situations. My teachers don't act the way that other teachers do. That's why I study with them and call them my teachers. What is ridiculous is getting yourself in these types of situations in the first place. Martial arts instructors always preach about avoiding dangerous situations -- these situations are not limited to physical altercations only.

With the exception of experienced practitioners, most of those signing up for MA lessons are not martial arts instructors.

Again, I do agree, and have commented in the past, that people are remiss in their research into MA schools. Consumers will put more effort into researching a toaster for a good deal than they will in their choice of school.

However, each of us is responsible for our own actions. Martial arts instructors also preach about honesty and integrity. The tenets of one of the larger taekwondo federations actually include such virtues, and many schools do adopt them, even if they are not part of that federation. They are responsible for their actions when those actions are dishonest or underhanded in some way. The fact that the student may be gullible or ignorant does not change that in any way.

Another thing is that people change over time. An individual that I know who instructs was a very different person eight years ago. He does all the things he swore he'd never do as an instructor. The change has come mainly over the last four years as the economy has been poor and he has had some personal issues. Nothing that anyone is going to sue him for; he's a little slow on the draw with association certificates, but he always tells people that they will receive it within six months and they always do.

But the way that he runs his school now is such that I would never send anyone to him, whereas eight years ago, his school was a fantastic place to train and I used to send people his way all the time (he teaches an art that I do not practice). Now, it is a glorified daycare center and the adult program has disintegrated as he teaches less and less, often handing the classes off to first and second dan teens, many of whom he skipped past the last couple of belts in order to promote them because he had a staffing need.

The man is a good man and he certainly knows his stuff. But the pressures of poor economy, more than one school, and some personal issues (nothing sensational) have caused a major shift in his priorities.

I suspect that new adult students see what he is about and shy away (his classes are mostly kids, and his adult classes tend to be mixed with kids as well). Parents, on the other hand, just see kids in nice white gis and colorful belts jumping around and having fun. It looks like a family friendly atmosphere (and actually, it is), so they sign up their kids for one of those obligatory contracts. The kids get little meaningful training, but are satisfied with a new belt every month or two.

Anyone doing a modicum of research within the past two years would say 'no thanks' unless they were mainly after daycare or just wanted their kid(s) in a pleasant environment. But eight or nine years back, it was a different story.

Another local school had a sterling reputation for like three or four decades. Still has a good rep to my knowledge, but the owner passed away and the new owner just 'isn't him.' I have never heard anything bad about the place, but the glowing praise is not there any longer either. Could just be that people were enamored with the old man and the new man simply suffers from unjust comparison. The point is, however, if you signed up five or six years ago, you were taught by the old man, but due to death, that would have changed a year or two after sign up.

Things change. People change. Sometimes, there is no way to predict that.

Daniel

 

[jks9199]

FWIW I withold ist Dan certs for a year. On the first day of class, each new student recieves a student handbook. The last page is my Liability waiver, photo release, covenant not to sue. That is filled out, signed, torn off and given to me.

In thehandbook , among other things are testing parameters including fees to be charged thru 3rd Dan. (With a disclaimer for possible periodic price increases) and the first dan one year probationary period is disclosed as well.

So, the issue is not so much witholding, but not delivering as promised.

As an attorney if someone came to me with an issue like this I would need more 411. If in fact what was promised was not delivered I might write a letter and see what shakes loose. It would cost too much to hire me to file suit and having the stuent pursue a small claim might be a good idea. Referring them to the State Attorney General for a consumer fraud investigation would be more cost effective and better for all potential victims.

Why do you withhold the certificates? Has the student completed the requirements and earned it? Would you make an exception for a student who is moving, for example?

Personally -- I think that if an instructor fails to provide a promised certificate, in the promised time, then that instructor is at best dishonest. Iin other words -- you disclose ahead of time that you're going to withhold it, that's your deal. They know it coming in. But to spring a year delay on them at the end, or to completely fail to provide it -- that's the problem.

 

[troubleenuf]

Thinking about this and it brings to mind the reasons I have found that people dont want to file a suit against instructors:
#1 reason. They are "conditioned" to respect that person. From the time you join class you are taught to bow to the instructor to say yes sir and to respect that person in everything that goes on in the gym. It becomes ingrained in you. It is, in many ways, a form of "brain washing" for lack of a better term. Now granted if the person in charge is what he is supposed to be there is nothing wrong with it. That is, he deserves the respect and position he/she is given. However when that person abuses that position then the person beneath him/her has a very difficult time overcoming that conditioning he/she has had during their years of training.
#2 Reason. They are afraid of the instructor. I have had several people who were actually scared that the instructor was going to hunt them down and physically assault them. This is extreme but it does happen. This is the same person that eventually a huge mess erupted around and parents brought in a nationally know cult deprogrammer and he left the area. He ended up killing a lady in a hit and run and ended up doing time in the pen. Dont know what happened to him after that but this guy was a real piece of work.
#3 reason... they just dont want to go threw the trouble. Its easier to just let them get by with it then to go through the headache and stress of taking him to court. Unfortunately this just allows them to continue to do it to others.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Why do you withhold the certificates? Has the student completed the requirements and earned it? Would you make an exception for a student who is moving, for example?

Personally -- I think that if an instructor fails to provide a promised certificate, in the promised time, then that instructor is at best dishonest. Iin other words -- you disclose ahead of time that you're going to withhold it, that's your deal. They know it coming in. But to spring a year delay on them at the end, or to completely fail to provide it -- that's the problem.

AFAIAC committing to active training for a year after the BB test is part of completing the requirements. Yes, it forces them to see there is something beyond the first dan test, and you (as well as they) grasp that from Day one this is part of the deal. No surprises.
I have not made an exception for people moving. They need to find some way to accomplish the commitment (They can train at another school) and will extend the probationary period indefinitely until that happens. I think one guy got his certificate after several years. Perhaps a few disappeared and asked for a certificate. But most never ask if they stop training.

 

[Gwai Lo Dan]

AFAIAC committing to active training for a year after the BB test is part of completing the requirements. Yes, it forces them to see there is something beyond the first dan test, and you (as well as they) grasp that from Day one this is part of the deal. No surprises.

At what point do you register them with Kukkiwon? Why not simply have a club black belt, and do the "kukkiwon test" a year later?

 

[andyjeffries]

At what point do you register them with Kukkiwon? Why not simply have a club black belt, and do the "kukkiwon test" a year later?

I'm sure the question still stands but Earl is ITF not Kukkiwon.

As a point of discussion though, I don't know how the kukkiwon would feel in this situation (they dislike instructors issuing their own dan certificates but implicitly approve of chodanbo or provisional dans).

 

[Earl Weiss]

I'm sure the question still stands but Earl is ITF not Kukkiwon.

As a point of discussion though, I don't know how the kukkiwon would feel in this situation (they dislike instructors issuing their own dan certificates but implicitly approve of chodanbo or provisional dans).

All certs were applied for and obtained when they passed the test. Wehnrec'd the certs were "Presented" in class and as per policy it was announced that they would recieve them after completion of the year training period.

For the record as of 2010, ITF under it's new leadership (Following the untimely death of GM Tran Quan) decided they no longer wanted members who were affiliated with any other non ITF TKD group including the USTF. I, along with others were told I would have to choose between the ITF and USTF. After 20 years as an ITF Instructor and having been with the ITF since I began training in TKD 1972, I chose the USTF.

 

[msmitht]

AFAIAC committing to active training for a year after the BB test is part of completing the requirements. Yes, it forces them to see there is something beyond the first dan test, and you (as well as they) grasp that from Day one this is part of the deal. No surprises.
I have not made an exception for people moving. They need to find some way to accomplish the commitment (They can train at another school) and will extend the probationary period indefinitely until that happens. I think one guy got his certificate after several years. Perhaps a few disappeared and asked for a certificate. But most never ask if they stop training.

So if they quit and come back a year later asking for the cert do you give it to them? Sorry, but I don't agree on this matter. Once the cert is issued it has the STUDENTS name on it and is not your property. It belongs to them and whatever psyco babble nonsense you try and spin you are in the wrong for withholding. If one of your students came to me with that story I would charge them ten bucks and order a copy for them. I would also report you to the kkw.
You are supposed to hand over the certs when you get them.

 

[Master Dan]

I am sure that there are many reputable instructors out there but until there is a way to tell good from bad I will keep on training at home with no instructor. I have no fancy uniform, no belt, no ceremony and my technique is not too hot but at least I do not have to worry if I am going to be cheated out of a lot of money.

This sort of behaviour reflects badly on the Kukkiwon as well. After all, the certifications are in their name and the instructor is using their name to advertise the business. Unless the kukkiwon starts caring about the issue there is not going to be any change in the situation.

+

First I am sad that you can not find anyone to train with and while you may get conditioning of some sort you simply cannot learn what has always been meant to be shared or handed down from one to another. KKW has nothing to do with the behavior of those who are abusing or miss representing it. The KKW is a global support depository for research and education with a data base that confirms completion of curiculum and testing based on what has been submitted to them or actually performed at the KKW.

You cannot blame the AMA for someone impersonating a Doctor and I would not get on the surgery table with out alot of verification of both thier education, skill and satisfied customers.

To say an uneducated person cannot judge a good from bad school is also rediculous there are common sense ways to judge that like judge a tree by the fruit it bears?

Watch the classes see how many happy and accomplished students look at not just monthly fees but all costs involved. Look at the complete teaching staff, go to a test and observe word of mouth other things.

Does the head instructor or GM have a true love of people and serve both his students and the community?

I will accept anyone who wants to learn but will not keep anyone or test them for BB with out a true committment to thier personal training and family, a commitment to serve others by teaching others and serving the community.

Regardless of age all persons need an older wiser role model for guidence and education and regardless of what published price list you may find you cannot pay any price for that wisdom it is shared freely with love to those who deserv it. Luckily we do not need to scale a mountain to find that person and then cut off one of our arms to convince them we are worthy to be taught? but it may take some time for them to trust you and feel comfortable with you. A wise and experienced master will teach you what you need to know and what you are ready to learn.

You cannot get that in your garage or from books or video and you also miss out on the group energy that is generated which you can learn to draw on when needed and if you do have a gift then you should be learning to share that with those less fortunate and you could be rich in people not things.

 

[Master Dan]

FWIW I withold ist Dan certs for a year. On the first day of class, each new student recieves a student handbook. The last page is my Liability waiver, photo release, covenant not to sue. That is filled out, signed, torn off and given to me.

In thehandbook , among other things are testing parameters including fees to be charged thru 3rd Dan. (With a disclaimer for possible periodic price increases) and the first dan one year probationary period is disclosed as well.

So, the issue is not so much witholding, but not delivering as promised.

As an attorney if someone came to me with an issue like this I would need more 411. If in fact what was promised was not delivered I might write a letter and see what shakes loose. It would cost too much to hire me to file suit and having the stuent pursue a small claim might be a good idea. Referring them to the State Attorney General for a consumer fraud investigation would be more cost effective and better for all potential victims.

I am wondering if there is some confusion about probationary black belt? This is actually a term for last test before 1st Dan? but a person who has been invited to test for a Dan Rank pays and tests should have a right to that cert with in resonable time based on application to the KKW? it would seem that no one advances to 2nd Dan with out showing a commitment to training and other things would be the incentive paying for 1st Dan and not recieving for 1 year seems like giving Walmart your credit card being charged and not recieving the product for one year would not be acceptable

 

[Earl Weiss]

So if they quit and come back a year later asking for the cert do you give it to them? Sorry, but I don't agree on this matter. Once the cert is issued it has the STUDENTS name on it and is not your property. It belongs to them and whatever psyco babble nonsense you try and spin you are in the wrong for withholding. If one of your students came to me with that story I would charge them ten bucks and order a copy for them. I would also report you to the kkw.
You are supposed to hand over the certs when you get them.

Well, you and I will agree to disagree.

From the first day they enter the gym and choose to become a student they have written notice for the requirement for getting their ceritficate. It's a slam dunk winner in any court.

BTW charging them 10 bucks and reporting me to the KKW would just make you look silly.
(I know, my bad for joining a KKW thread

 

[Earl Weiss]

I am wondering if there is some confusion about probationary black belt? This is actually a term for last test before 1st Dan? but a person who has been invited to test for a Dan Rank pays and tests should have a right to that cert with in resonable time based on application to the KKW? it would seem that no one advances to 2nd Dan with out showing a commitment to training and other things would be the incentive paying for 1st Dan and not recieving for 1 year seems like giving Walmart your credit card being charged and not recieving the product for one year would not be acceptable

The confusion is caused in part by me. I am not KKW. So, any "probationary" BB definition realting to the KKW as no relevance to the probation I impose. I was just providing an example. Students know the deal from day 1. We both agree to abode by that deal.

AFAIAC the Walmart analogy fails since if a student views my teaching solely as a commodity, we are already operating on different wavelengths.

 

[msmitht]

Well, you and I will agree to disagree.

From the first day they enter the gym and choose to become a student they have written notice for the requirement for getting their ceritficate. It's a slam dunk winner in any court.

BTW charging them 10 bucks and reporting me to the KKW would just make you look silly.
(I know, my bad for joining a KKW thread

Does that mean you are itf/ata/some other tkd and not kkw?
If so, then it does not matter to me what you do. I still think you are in the wrong for not giving certs. Cheers!

 

[hoshindo]

Mr. Weiss: Question to you. It has been many years since I did any itf systems.
If a student does move and if they have the numbers can another USTF school or instructor order a copy from the HQ ? What is the time line for 2nd Dan ( KKW is around 1 year) from USTF? Is the 2nd Dan cert. held for a year also. Just getting info because I have students that come to me with different questions about why so much differents between Taekwondo schools

Jim

 

[Earl Weiss]

Does that mean you are itf/ata/some other tkd and not kkw?
If so, then it does not matter to me what you do. I still think you are in the wrong for not giving certs. Cheers!

Correct.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Mr. Weiss: Question to you. It has been many years since I did any itf systems.
If a student does move and if they have the numbers can another USTF school or instructor order a copy from the HQ ? What is the time line for 2nd Dan ( KKW is around 1 year) from USTF? Is the 2nd Dan cert. held for a year also. Just getting info because I have students that come to me with different questions about why so much differents between Taekwondo schools

Jim

First and foremost. The one year probation for first dan is not a USTF policy. It is my policy. Something developed by my instructor over 30 years ago, and adopted by me over 20 years ago. No probationary period or holding of certificates for 2nd Dan. Minimum active time in grade for 2nd Dan in the USTF is a minimum of 18 months with a minimum of 7 classes per month. The time runs from the first Dan test date.

Replacement certificates can be ordered from USTF HQ. They may contact the instructor to find out if anything unusual is going on.

 

[Kurai]

AFAIAC committing to active training for a year after the BB test is part of completing the requirements. Yes, it forces them to see there is something beyond the first dan test, and you (as well as they) grasp that from Day one this is part of the deal. No surprises.
I have not made an exception for people moving. They need to find some way to accomplish the commitment (They can train at another school) and will extend the probationary period indefinitely until that happens. I think one guy got his certificate after several years. Perhaps a few disappeared and asked for a certificate. But most never ask if they stop training.

I don't understand why an instructor would have to "force" a student to see that there is something beyond first dan. I would think that an instructors continued advancement and improvement would give the student reason to train beyond first dan.

Forcing them by withholding the cert definitely sounds like a way to keep the class tuition coming in. In my opinion, not a good way either.