Suing for Kukkiwon Certificate

[Earl Weiss]

Earl,
while i think what you do is crappy, at least your honest about it.

Thanks. I think

 

[Master Dan]

I definetely agree with you. The thought of 1st dan in 1 year is just funny as far as Im concerned. If someone started a club over here and handed out black belts after 12 months they would lose all credibility and no one would want to train there. The credibility of a school is extremely important from both a martial and business point of view and no school giving out black belts in 1 year will ever gain any credibility, not in my area anyway, what they do in korea is another story.

One year from no experience at all is rediculous in most cases I would agree but people with 4-6 years being given a bb with little or no skills at all especially the ability to defend them selves on some minimal basis is also wrong. I complained to our GM while assisting with a bb promotion test on behalf of a masters students that had traveled in for testing and my green belts were better quality and shocked at what they witnessed.

Of course they were not taught by the GM but the master was his. His comment to me was well they are just kids its ok?These were 15 16 and 17 year old kids that had been practicing 4-8 years on average. The need to justify things on the basis of money has corupted to much of traditional teaching.

I find it interesting that previous posts of others have noted that 1st Dan is nothing on the scale of 1-10. This ignores the fact that 1st Dan is the foundation that will support all other Grades in the future and I would put it to you that 1st Gup or yellow belt and the absolute commitment and perfection of everything that is needed for that which should take six months is the core foundation that will determin the quality of the MA person the rest of thier life.

I also find it interesting in a previous post mentioning that any talk or mention of Rank having value is for uneducated peoples meaning that any college graduate would not lower themselves to talking about how much they earn yet then is it not an oximoron to say that 1 has no value compared to 10? implying that well yes higher rank does have value.

Some people can Gup test every 2-3 months because they are gifted and work that hard but others need more time. The sole responsibility in making the decision to advance to 1st Dan and successive ranks levels should lie with the integrety of the Master in charge based on not just technique but also maturity and contribution not a ticking clock and not presure from momy and daddy paying for lessons or other material considerations.

I firmly believe that a quality master from the original root of a MA gives a serious portion of himself to the student and that he has the right and responsibility to determin what is right for the student and has the right to refuse to continue to instruct or advance them if there is a base problem with thier training or conduct.

Different people arrive at this end destination in different ways and yes it could be said that just telling everyone it takes 4 years as opposed to saying 3 years with one year probation or waiting period but I can see that the core intent is still there to attempt to maintain a base line of quality with out presure from others.

Some people say how could you determin a good club or master from another? For adult or parent I would examine all that is put into print then sit down with the master and ask frank questions of what is expected and what are the goals. Observe thier students at all rank levels and then decide if that is what you want to be part of. After that you need to submitt and give 100% if you cannot then you should not be training with that person.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

One year from no experience at all is rediculous in most cases I would agree but people with 4-6 years being given a bb with little or no skills at all especially the ability to defend them selves on some minimal basis is also wrong. I complained to our GM while assisting with a bb promotion test on behalf of a masters students that had traveled in for testing and my green belts were better quality and shocked at what they witnessed.

Of course they were not taught by the GM but the master was his. His comment to me was well they are just kids its ok?These were 15 16 and 17 year old kids that had been practicing 4-8 years on average. The need to justify things on the basis of money has corupted to much of traditional teaching.

I find it interesting that previous posts of others have noted that 1st Dan is nothing on the scale of 1-10. This ignores the fact that 1st Dan is the foundation that will support all other Grades in the future and I would put it to you that 1st Gup or yellow belt and the absolute commitment and perfection of everything that is needed for that which should take six months is the core foundation that will determin the quality of the MA person the rest of thier life.

I also find it interesting in a previous post mentioning that any talk or mention of Rank having value is for uneducated peoples meaning that any college graduate would not lower themselves to talking about how much they earn yet then is it not an oximoron to say that 1 has no value compared to 10? implying that well yes higher rank does have value.

Some people can Gup test every 2-3 months because they are gifted and work that hard but others need more time. The sole responsibility in making the decision to advance to 1st Dan and successive ranks levels should lie with the integrety of the Master in charge based on not just technique but also maturity and contribution not a ticking clock and not presure from momy and daddy paying for lessons or other material considerations.

I firmly believe that a quality master from the original root of a MA gives a serious portion of himself to the student and that he has the right and responsibility to determin what is right for the student and has the right to refuse to continue to instruct or advance them if there is a base problem with thier training or conduct.

Different people arrive at this end destination in different ways and yes it could be said that just telling everyone it takes 4 years as opposed to saying 3 years with one year probation or waiting period but I can see that the core intent is still there to attempt to maintain a base line of quality with out presure from others.

Some people say how could you determin a good club or master from another? For adult or parent I would examine all that is put into print then sit down with the master and ask frank questions of what is expected and what are the goals. Observe thier students at all rank levels and then decide if that is what you want to be part of. After that you need to submitt and give 100% if you cannot then you should not be training with that person.

I have to agree with you when you say that 1st dan is the foundation for what is to come. Its all well and good to suggest that 1st dan is the lowest rung on the ladder and that students can just rush through the coloured belts, but in my experience Ive noticed that the clubs who pump out poor quality 1st dans in quick time (and any 1st dan in under 3-4 years wont be very good) usually has poor 2nd dans , 3rd dans etc. It is really up to the GM to determine what they consider a 1st dan to be and then adhere to standards to achieve this. Our GM expects a lot from a 1st dan and so puts infrastructure in place to make sure first dans are good, this cannot be achieved in under 3-4 years minimum in my opinion.

 

[Master Dan]

I have to agree with you when you say that 1st dan is the foundation for what is to come. Its all well and good to suggest that 1st dan is the lowest rung on the ladder and that students can just rush through the coloured belts, but in my experience Ive noticed that the clubs who pump out poor quality 1st dans in quick time (and any 1st dan in under 3-4 years wont be very good) usually has poor 2nd dans , 3rd dans etc. It is really up to the GM to determine what they consider a 1st dan to be and then adhere to standards to achieve this. Our GM expects a lot from a 1st dan and so puts infrastructure in place to make sure first dans are good, this cannot be achieved in under 3-4 years minimum in my opinion.

I started with Ernie Reyes Senior and his GM in MooDuk Kwan before changing to Jidokwan and is was the most profound first six months of my life. It took 4 years in their dojang training 6 days at least 24 to 30 hours a week not counting cross training and if you wanted to be the best you cold you trained 8 hours a day the last six months and you had to break one red fire brick knife hand period no good lord decorative patio trim bricks. What we have today is all about the money period. I believe in tradtional TKD for families and the community but each person should have what is best in them brought out and learn the lesson that they truly have no limits at least in their mindset today. The quality break down over the last 40 years has to lay at the feet of those who allowed that to happen while others have stayed true to the core design will continue to flourish even if TKD falls from the Olmypics all though I don't know why it would since fat people swishing brooms and drinking bear gets more network coverage? Youd think TKD woudl be kept in?

 

[andyjeffries]

One year from no experience at all is rediculous in most cases I would agree but people with 4-6 years being given a bb with little or no skills at all especially the ability to defend them selves on some minimal basis is also wrong.

I believe our seniors feel that Taekwondo is for everyone and I agree. Providing they can do the basics competently then that is what 1st poom/dan is all about. Most Taekwondoin I've ever met are useless if the fight goes to the ground for example. Does that mean they shouldn't have a black belt because they can't defend themselves in that scenario?

What about blind/disabled students? Should they be held back from black belt?

I find it interesting that previous posts of others have noted that 1st Dan is nothing on the scale of 1-10. This ignores the fact that 1st Dan is the foundation that will support all other Grades in the future and I would put it to you that 1st Gup or yellow belt and the absolute commitment and perfection of everything that is needed for that which should take six months is the core foundation that will determin the quality of the MA person the rest of thier life.

So our seniors in Korea who all likely achieved their 1st Dans in this short timescale are of a low quality? Or maybe they were all "gifted" as you later refer to...

The sole responsibility in making the decision to advance to 1st Dan and successive ranks levels should lie with the integrety of the Master in charge based on not just technique but also maturity and contribution not a ticking clock and not presure from momy and daddy paying for lessons or other material considerations.

And maybe it's not a lack of integrity, ticking clock or pressure - maybe it's just that some masters have a different barometer for what 1st dan means to you.

That said, I don't feel that instructors should just promote students regardless, with no consideration to standards, just that maybe your standard is different to that in everyday Korea. It doesn't mean they are giving black belts away for free (or charging a fortune, but I mean free as in standards low) just that they consider a black belt to be something different to you.

 

[Earl Weiss]

. The quality break down over the last 40 years has to lay at the feet of those who allowed that to happen while others have stayed true to the core design will continue to flourish even if TKD falls from the Olmypics all though I don't know why it would since fat people swishing brooms and drinking bear gets more network coverage? Youd think TKD woudl be kept in?

Only people who play by WTF rules "get it".

To the rest of the world the hands down no punches to the head sparring format is of no interest. (Which is putting it nicely.)

I think Judo gets little or no air time for similar reasons. The General Public does not understand whats going on in Judo match and does not find it interesting.

 

[terryl965]

Well for the OP what did you decide and how will you hamdle your stituation?

 

[miguksaram]

what is this stuff? people either pass or they do not pass.

why do i just KNOW there is money made here somehow.......

friggin TKD has turned into a scam these days.

Don't mix up an art with people who abuse it. Kenpo has its fair share of people who take advantage as well.

 

[msmitht]

Only people who play by WTF rules "get it".

To the rest of the world the hands down no punches to the head sparring format is of no interest. (Which is putting it nicely.)

I think Judo gets little or no air time for similar reasons. The General Public does not understand whats going on in Judo match and does not find it interesting.

And they get american itf(stop and go)point sparring? At least we go for the ko. Kyroogi means a contest of skill. It takes little skill to play "tag".
Judo gets prime time in other countries. You need to check your facts. The only sports that get prime time coverage in the us involve a ball or young girls tumbling.

 

[Master Dan]

I believe our seniors feel that Taekwondo is for everyone and I agree. Providing they can do the basics competently then that is what 1st poom/dan is all about. Most Taekwondoin I've ever met are useless if the fight goes to the ground for example. Does that mean they shouldn't have a black belt because they can't defend themselves in that scenario?

What about blind/disabled students? Should they be held back from black belt?



So our seniors in Korea who all likely achieved their 1st Dans in this short timescale are of a low quality? Or maybe they were all "gifted" as you later refer to...

And maybe it's not a lack of integrity, ticking clock or pressure - maybe it's just that some masters have a different barometer for what 1st dan means to you.

That said, I don't feel that instructors should just promote students regardless, with no consideration to standards, just that maybe your standard is different to that in everyday Korea. It doesn't mean they are giving black belts away for free (or charging a fortune, but I mean free as in standards low) just that they consider a black belt to be something different to you.

First any good master can teach any person to defend themselves with what they have and should. Second I wonder what % of kids in Korea are getting 1st Dan in 12 months and how long ago did that become the norm I bet 30 years ago it was not?

 

[Miles]

In my case the $ is the extra year tuition at $50.00 / month. (No test, No fee, certificate just presented after a year.) Which is paid directly to the Park District . I get a % from which all expenses including insurance is paid. Since the time in grade requirement runs from the date of the test if they test for second dan then there is no extra $.

Earl, when your students test for 2nd dan, is the certificate with-held in the same manner as your 1st dans? If not, can you explain why not?

 

[Daniel Sullivan]

Earl, when your students test for 2nd dan, is the certificate with-held in the same manner as your 1st dans? If not, can you explain why not?

I'm pretty sure that he had said earlier that only the first dan cert is held for a year and that the rest are issued promptly. This thread is too long for me to go hunting for it though.

Daniel

 

[puunui]

Second I wonder what % of kids in Korea are getting 1st Dan in 12 months and how long ago did that become the norm I bet 30 years ago it was not?

I believe the vast majority of Taekwondoin in Korea are receiving their 1st Poom/Dan in one year. Students are required to train five days per week though. The one year to 1st Dan standard is nothing new. Like I stated earlier, Jidokwan GM LEE Chong Woo said that he took one year to receive his 1st Dan, and the Moo Duk Kwan also had the one year to 1st Dan standard, both back in the 1940's.

 

[puunui]

Only people who play by WTF rules "get it". To the rest of the world the hands down no punches to the head sparring format is of no interest. (Which is putting it nicely.)

So 70 million Kukki Taekwondo practitioners in almost 200 countries "get it" then. I can live with that.

 

[puunui]

I find it interesting that previous posts of others have noted that 1st Dan is nothing on the scale of 1-10.

Actually what I said was 1st Dan was the lowest rank on a scale of 1 to 10.

This ignores the fact that 1st Dan is the foundation that will support all other Grades in the future and I would put it to you that 1st Gup or yellow belt and the absolute commitment and perfection of everything that is needed for that which should take six months is the core foundation that will determin the quality of the MA person the rest of thier life.

I have a student who received his 1st Dan from your "Jidokwan GM". He is a local kid who went to college in the Portland area, worked for a while, then moved back home. Technically, he had a lot of things to work on. His sparring stance was nonexistent, he had no steps, and the basics on pretty much all his kicks were out of whack, especially his roundhouse kick, which he did in a short 45 degree motion. No steps or stance and a short roundhouse, needless to say he was beaten badly during sparring. But he had a very polite positive attitude, understood what martial arts training and discipline and respect was all about, and understood enough of Taekwondo so he wasn't a rank beginner. In other words, he was a typical black belt. We showed him our stance and steps and explained why we did what we did. He soaked it all up like he hadn't eaten in years, and commented that the instructors at his old school never explained anything, at least not the way we explained things. He has some challenges, mostly having to do with unlearning the things that he learned (45 degree roundhouse being one of the biggest challenges) but he is on his way, the adjustment being no different than the one a high school graduate makes when he goes off to college.

I also find it interesting in a previous post mentioning that any talk or mention of Rank having value is for uneducated peoples meaning that any college graduate would not lower themselves to talking about how much they earn yet then is it not an oximoron to say that 1 has no value compared to 10? implying that well yes higher rank does have value.

I don't know if it would be an "oxymoron", but it might be a contradiction, if in fact that is what was said. But it wasn't. So your conclusion, based on faulty facts, is invalid.

But if you wanted a contradiction, here's one in which you state on one hand you have a "submit" and yet on the other hand you are complaining about your grandmaster's actions:

Some people say how could you determin a good club or master from another? For adult or parent I would examine all that is put into print then sit down with the master and ask frank questions of what is expected and what are the goals. Observe thier students at all rank levels and then decide if that is what you want to be part of. After that you need to submitt and give 100% if you cannot then you should not be training with that person.

vs.

I complained to our GM while assisting with a bb promotion test on behalf of a masters students that had traveled in for testing and my green belts were better quality and shocked at what they witnessed. Of course they were not taught by the GM but the master was his. His comment to me was well they are just kids its ok?These were 15 16 and 17 year old kids that had been practicing 4-8 years on average. The need to justify things on the basis of money has corupted to much of traditional teaching.

 

[puunui]

I started with Ernie Reyes Senior and his GM in MooDuk Kwan before changing to Jidokwan and is was the most profound first six months of my life. It took 4 years in their dojang training 6 days at least 24 to 30 hours a week not counting cross training and if you wanted to be the best you cold you trained 8 hours a day the last six months and you had to break one red fire brick knife hand period no good lord decorative patio trim bricks.

So four years, six days a week at least 24-30 a week, not counting cross training, which adds up to 4800 to 6000 hours total training for 1st Dan?

The quality break down over the last 40 years has to lay at the feet of those who allowed that to happen while others have stayed true to the core design will continue to flourish even if TKD falls from the Olmypics all though I don't know why it would since fat people swishing brooms and drinking bear gets more network coverage? Youd think TKD woudl be kept in?

The quality of knowledge from a typical 1st Dan far outweighs the quality of a 1st Dan 40 years ago. The quality of Taekwondo in general is much higher today than it ever was. The pioneers acknowledge this, even if you don't.

 

[puunui]

You say Kukkiwon standard - is this discussed on the Instructor course or is it documented anywhere? I thought the Kukkiwon didn't particularly care about Geup grades (except that they are given by Kukkiwon 4th Dans or above)...
Or is it a KTA standard that the Kukkiwon accepts - and because most promotions in the Kukkiwon for 1st Dan/Poom are from the KTA due to the number of practitioners that is the de facto standard?

It is just what everyone does in Korea. The curriculum of Taekwondo, and other martial arts including Hapkido, is built around the concept of 1st Dan in one year. Promotions aren't as big a deal in Korea as it is elsewhere, for a variety of reasons. For example, the pioneers who started back in 1946, the first dan holders, received Kukkiwon 9th Dan in 1975, with 29 years total training.

 

[Earl Weiss]

And they get american itf(stop and go)point sparring? At least we go for the ko. Kyroogi means a contest of skill. It takes little skill to play "tag".
Judo gets prime time in other countries. You need to check your facts. The only sports that get prime time coverage in the us involve a ball or young girls tumbling.

Not sure what "And they get american itf(stop and go)point sparring?" is but for the record, the fact is ITF sparring is continuous.

And, no they don't get stop point sparring either. That is why you don't see it on TV. Kickboxing which is close to ITF Sparring gets very little air play these days as well.

 

[Earl Weiss]

You need to check your facts. The only sports that get prime time coverage in the us involve a ball or young girls tumbling.

OK, so my seeing swimming, track and curling were just figments of my imagination.

 

[hungryninja]

Perhaps it was in reference to ATA sparring or open karate sparring?

Not sure what "And they get american itf(stop and go)point sparring?" is but for the record ITF sparring is continuous.