Teaching my son karate

[philwhite]

Ok this may be a bit of a long first post here. I've been in Karate since 94 and have practicing since. I got my 1st degree in 97 and then my second around 2015. Both through National Karate (NK) in Minnesota. I have taught karate, participated in numerous tournaments, traveled between schools to fight other black belts, and was a center ref at several tournaments for black belts and under. My old schools that I used to go to are no longer open. National Karate is still around but we have moved to far away to train there. We live way out in the country now in a different state. There really are no dojos or opportunities to train near us. Maybe an hour away.

I also want to break off from NK and start teaching my son karate and eventually my daughter. My son is very mesmerised by it and I believe he is now getting mature enough to learn. I plan on doing things very different then how I was trained but keep to the fundamentals. I'd like to create our own form together, etc.

Today he said dad I want ot be a third degree. Hence my dilemma. Now I know many kids drop out so everything is speculative at this point but if I were to do a classical belt system for him, where does this go if he does eventually advance. He, like many kids, needs progression markers to stay interested and dans and degrees tick that box for advancement. We also plan on doing state open tournaments so we have to kind of fit into that framework.

Just wondering everyone's thoughts on how an instructor should advance when no longer associated with their old school. I've tried to read up on several of the threads here to see if anyone has an opinion. I don't want to be the clown that declares myself 12 degree blackbelt inherited from god himself or anything silly like that. Just would like to move the needle a bit and feel like it was deserved. I would like to think that my pursuit of training my family has merit in itself though. I would also love the opportunity to train others as well, if nothing more than white belt courses through our local REC.

My thought would be to test with my son when he is ready to test for his first. I'd love ideas. I know some of you are very tradionalist and I respect your martial arts liniage and styles. I'm just a guy in the middle of southern Iowa who wants to spend time with his kids doing something I love.

Thanks in advance

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

So just to clarify, you yourself are a second degree, and the schools you trained with quite literally do not exist anymore, so there's nowhere near you to rank further?

Was there something in particular that made you take 20 years to earn your second degree? (where you training that whole time and internal politics/you pissed off the wrong people, or was there a significant break in your training?) And is there anywhere nearby that trains your style or a similar style which you could continue to advance in? Has your training been in one specific style, or is part of the issue that you're trained multiple styles?

The reason I ask is because the simplest solution is just you teach your children but continue training yourself. In 5-10 years (depending on your sons age) when they reach 2nd degree level, ideally if you're training elsewhere you should be fourth or fifth degree and there's no complications in promoting them yourself. If that's not an option, personally I'd train them and when they reach whatever rank you can't promote them to in your style, teach them what they need and reach out to the nearest instuctor at the appropriate level to see if they'll test them. Probably do that 1-2 years in advance in case they have any requirements to see them train.

And keep in mind that kids change their minds frequently. At some point, they may want to be a karate master, a ninja master, a lawyer, a pilot, an astronaut, and there's no use killing yourself over any of them until they're clear in what they want to be.

 

[philwhite]

Between 1st and second degree I was in college in another state so I was unable to train back home for most of that time (6 years). I trained on my own and came back and did summer classes. After college, I moved around a bit before returning full time to another NK school. After I got my second, I feel like karate politics came into play. I wasn't the only one not advancing yet there were others who did far less being promoted.

Perhaps your right on just finding someone to do the evaluation. I have some peers that I can ask. Thanks for the feedback.

 

[Flying Crane]

If you have made a habit of training on your own when you are not connected to a school, then you know what you know, and your rank is what it is. First, kudos to you for doing that, it shows you actually learned something and held on to it and made it your own. It’s shocking how many people fail to learn that lesson, even after reaching black belt levels. As soon as they are away from their school, they have no idea what to do.

Teach your kids what you know. Rank them appropriately, consistently with how you were trained and ranked. Consistently does not need to mean identically. If you feel some things should change, and you have good reasons for it, then make changes. But keep integrity in the training and the ranking. Don’t worry about further ranks beyond where you are. If you eventually find a school in which you can progress further, then do so. But in the meantime, don’t worry about that.

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Never forget: whatever the merits of kata as a tool for developing martial ability, they are an excellent means of entertaining small children

 

[Prince_Alarming]

Also: make it fun! once they know a few techniques, just let them play with them.

 

[skribs]

I'm in a somewhat similar position as you. I just recently received my 4th degree in Taekwondo (and there was a ton of drama surrounding that, which has it's own threads in the Taekwondo section of this website). I am essentially now a 4th degree black belt with no Master and no organizational affiliation, due to the personal problems I have had with my former Master and politics within the organization.

I'm at the point now where I'm a 4th degree black belt and I'm ready to open my own school, and my only real options for promotion at this point are:

• Convince a 3rd party to promote me
• Have someone come into my school who is already a higher degree than me (because they want to train but don't want to run a school) and get my promotion through them
• Self-promotion (and all of the red flags that raises)
• Internal promotion through my senior students down the line. This is the most likely route I would take, but unfortunately you don't really seem to have that option.

For me, like it seems for you, achieving my rank is less about my personal journey and more about raising the ceiling for my students. As it stands for me, the highest I could promote people without raising eyebrows is 3rd degree. It's weird for a 4th to promote to 4th, and it would be even weirder for a 4th to promote to 5th. If I do have students stick around that long, then I will have been doing this long enough that hopefully it doesn't raise eyebrows.

It's another concern when it's your own family that you're promoting, especially when there isn't an organization backing you. My parents are 2nd and 3rd degree black belts within the organization I was previously a part of (and I am only a 3rd degree in the organization, I am just a 4th degree with an unaffiliated promotion). It would raise eyebrows for me to promote my parents even to 3rd degree without any other oversight. There is a big risk of conflict of interest. Especially if my promoting them allows them to help promote me.

Unfortunately for you, my solution is that if it eventually comes to pass that I do need to promote someone to 4th degree, promote my parents, and/or feel it is in the best interest for my students for me to get promoted to 5th degree, my solution is a quorum. If I have a single student at 3rd degree, they're probably stuck. If I get several students at 3rd degree, a panel of myself and my senior students could be used to promote to 4th degree, and if I have enough students reach 4th degree, then I feel a panel of 4th degree could promote a single other 4th degree to 5th. This is something that may come to pass, or it may not. If it does come to pass, it will probably be decades down the line before I have enough students stick around long enough for it to matter.

I realize that doesn't help you, though, if it's just your family that you're training, then there will never be a less-biased quorum to help. Here's a few other options you have:

• Simply use "black belt" without associated degrees.
• Skip belts entirely and focus on technique and application.

Those won't help your son get 3rd degree, but they will help him set achievable goals and reach them.

Options that will let your kid reach 3rd degree include:

• Find someone who can oversee yours and/or your son's promotions
• Join another school, even if it's another martial art. He could eventually be a 3rd degree black belt in Taekwondo or Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu. It doesn't have to be Karate.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Ok this may be a bit of a long first post here. I've been in Karate since 94 and have practicing since. I got my 1st degree in 97 and then my second around 2015. Both through National Karate (NK) in Minnesota. I have taught karate, participated in numerous tournaments, traveled between schools to fight other black belts, and was a center ref at several tournaments for black belts and under. My old schools that I used to go to are no longer open. National Karate is still around but we have moved to far away to train there. We live way out in the country now in a different state. There really are no dojos or opportunities to train near us. Maybe an hour away.

I also want to break off from NK and start teaching my son karate and eventually my daughter. My son is very mesmerised by it and I believe he is now getting mature enough to learn. I plan on doing things very different then how I was trained but keep to the fundamentals. I'd like to create our own form together, etc.

Today he said dad I want ot be a third degree. Hence my dilemma. Now I know many kids drop out so everything is speculative at this point but if I were to do a classical belt system for him, where does this go if he does eventually advance. He, like many kids, needs progression markers to stay interested and dans and degrees tick that box for advancement. We also plan on doing state open tournaments so we have to kind of fit into that framework.

Just wondering everyone's thoughts on how an instructor should advance when no longer associated with their old school. I've tried to read up on several of the threads here to see if anyone has an opinion. I don't want to be the clown that declares myself 12 degree blackbelt inherited from god himself or anything silly like that. Just would like to move the needle a bit and feel like it was deserved. I would like to think that my pursuit of training my family has merit in itself though. I would also love the opportunity to train others as well, if nothing more than white belt courses through our local REC.

My thought would be to test with my son when he is ready to test for his first. I'd love ideas. I know some of you are very tradionalist and I respect your martial arts liniage and styles. I'm just a guy in the middle of southern Iowa who wants to spend time with his kids doing something I love.

Thanks in advance

I think people (especially younger people) have a tendency to focus too much on rank. I also think there's truth to the statement that most of the "rank doesn't really matter" people are those who already have high rank. I personally think rank can be useful for providing structure, but it's certainly not the only option. And I think it helps know what level of knowledge an individual has in a really large class. That's not really an issue for most of us.

Self-promotion has a bad rep, and there are certainly drawbacks to that route (or any other). And there are plenty of scam artists who have done this. On the other hand, the founders and early leaders of pretty much any style you can think of self-promoted. Your other viable option is to find a local or near local school that teaches the same style and talk to them. If there are no such schools, then find the one that is the closest to your style.

Is 2nd Dan considered a teaching rank in your style? That may also become a factor in dealings with other schools.

As far as competition goes, I wouldn't worry about it much either. Our MDK schools are not at all focused on tournaments, but we do go from time to time. On at least two occasions, I had some of our higher Geup ranks sign in and compete as 1st Dans. Why? Because it's not about winning, it's about having a good match and learning something. 1st Dan in our system takes an average of 6-8 years. And I've only ever awarded 1st Dan to three students who were minors. Those three were remarkable students, 16-17 years old, and had been training since they were 7-8. I do not think it's fair to take a 2nd Geup with 5-6 years of training (or more) and match them against someone of the same nominal rank who has a year in.

Frankly, I don't think any of that really matters if you're just teaching your kids. Go for it. Have fun. Heading to a tourney? Strap on whatever belt you think will give them a good learning experience.

I have trained my kids, for various periods of time. Because I was training them in a school, not just our home, I did have one rule. I think even the appearance of nepotism is to be avoided. So I never, ever, not even once, graded my own family.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Just wondering everyone's thoughts on how an instructor should advance when no longer associated with their old school.

The most valuable lesson that I learned when I was 11 was my brother in law (a Lo Han system master) wanted me to drill "1 step 3 punches" for 3 years. It trains both foot work and punching combination (such as jab-jab-cross, jab-hook-hook, jab-hook-uppercut, hook-back fist-overhand, ...). I still drill those combos even today.

 

[isshinryuronin]

,the founders and early leaders of pretty much any style you can think of self-promoted.

This is not really accurate. Prior to 1924 there were no belt ranks in karate, at least no black belts. Funakoshi awarded the first one in 1924. Going back before that, there were recognized masters with creds beyond reproach. Just a few examples:

Matsumura (karate's grandfather) was Chief of Royal Security for three kings of Okinawa. In addition to his very extensive empty hand MA expertise (too much to detail here), he was an expert in the warrior weapons arts. His students (Chibana and Itosu) founded the shorinryu branch of karate and one, Funakoshi, developed what became Shotokan and was recognized as its master by the JKA

Miyagi was the first kyoshi (roughly "expert teacher" shogu title) awarded in 1937 by the Dai Nippon Butokukai which oversaw all MA in greater Japan. The afore mentioned Chibana was the senior MA instructor for the Shuri police dept. and was awarded the Order of the Sacred Treasure by the Emperor of Japan. He was awarded shihan ("master teacher" shogu title) by the DNB.

Most all of the Okinawan masters who lived in the time of belt ranks and shogu (including Shimabuku) were awarded them by the DNB or by the Okinawan equivalent organization made up of masters from a variety of styles such as Mabuni, Chbana, Miyagi and other karate legends. Those that received black belts from these sorts of men and down the line are secure in knowing they belong to lineages with rock solid roots.

This is a far cry from "self-promoting" as is seen in modern times and IMO is most always distasteful to say the least.

 

[skribs]

Is 2nd Dan considered a teaching rank in your style? That may also become a factor in dealings with other schools.

I think there's also a difference between various levels of "teaching rank".

For example, at both of the schools I recently attended, teaching rank could be:

• Red belts can become assistant instructors, which basically means they hold targets, setup and break down for drills, and keep the kids on task. They may take a small group to teach under supervision.
• Black belts can become instructors, which are given the task of running a small group by themselves or run a drill for the whole class under supervision.
• Select individuals can become senior instructors, which are given the task of teaching an entire class by themselves. Usually this is higher-ranking folks, but I was an exception at my old school and started at blue belt.
• Master is 4th degree and up, Master is required to run belt promotions.

Under normal circumstances, red is a "teaching" belt, but really teaching usually is left to black belts, and even then usually 2nd and up. But the teaching belt isn't the promoting belt, that's 4th degree.