Sport And TMA....Again

[RTKDCMB]

But out the classic, Jo Sun vs Hackney, where first of all Hackney belts him in the nuts then grabs his trachea and chokes him out.

Everyone knows that Joe Son has no balls.

 

[RTKDCMB]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FYuu84PJK80&feature=youtu.be

That arm wrap technique is taught in my art as well among others - interesting.

 

[Hanzou]

I have seen a large number of BJJ fights on videos but I have never seen any evidence of striking that I would consider to be comprehensive.

Of course you wouldnt. Most of the striking is taught via entering a takedown, or soften up a target for a submission on the ground. You see a lot of this with the Gracies in Pride, Vale Tudo, and the UFC. With dominant positioning, striking someone is far easier to accomplish.

 

[MJS]

Yes would be my answer, because you need to build muscle memory. Let's think of another sport. Pick one. Golf, Tennis, Basketball, any skill sport. All work on the fundamentals. I played tennis at a high level as a junior. I remember hitting balls off of a brick wall for so long that I would almost fall asleep. Golf.....do you think Tiger Woods is thinking about everything as he swings? No. This stuff has to be ingrained into you, because the moment is just that....a moment. It's the same in a fight. You can't think. You try to anticipate and react. IMO, preset techs help to establish those fundamentals. That base from which to work from. And you have to do them 100,000 times. They have to be ingrained into the subconcious realm of your brain.

There's a great book on tennis, called "Inner Tennis", and it talks about how most tennis matches are won before they are even played. It's the mental things. Thinking about everything....well, that kills you. You need to let go, and play instinctively but with good form through hundreds of hours of practice. You need to think about strategy, not "how should I hit this forehand"....

The same concepts apply to the MA, with a more serious outcome. YMMV.

Mike

Nice post! That's pretty much my take. IMO, I feel that the fighting skill will come from the practice of set drills, techniques, etc. They all go hand in hand. Boxing for example...they work numerous drills on the pads, yet when it's time to step into the ring, they're using the part of the drill that best fits their need at the moment.

 

[MJS]

The fighting skills stem from technique, MJS. I don't know that I quite understand what you're getting at. At some point, the golfer, tennis player, banjo player or whatever, will take the skills and apply them outside of the pre-arranged drills. Whether you're talking about the transition from the driving range to the links, or from scales and arpeggios to playing songs to riffing with an improvisational jazz band, at some point, in order to effectively transition past basic skills you have to apply the skills outside context of training.

Hey Steve,

The purpose of this thread and subsequent question, stemmed from that other thread, "Can BJJ work in a real fight?". It seemed to me anyways, that the notion that sport fighting was superior to the TMAs, because of their training methods. I simply asked if the TMAs would be better if less time was spent on working kata and empty hand SD techs, and more time on the fighting aspect, such as we see with sport fighting. I mean, we don't see MMA fighters doing kata or working on knife defense, we see them working striking, hitting the pads, sparring, grappling, etc. Since at least one person in that other thread gives the impression (despite what he claims) that the sporting methods are superior, I simply wanted to hear from the members, and what they thought. I hope that made sense.

I don't think sports are equivalent to self defense. I simply believe that, in a world in which most of us DON'T get into fights routinely, sports get us closer to combat than simulations and drills.

I agree. So, in your opinion, do you feel its a waste of time, for the TMA student to spend time learning defenses to various attacks, ie: grabs, kicks, weapons, etc.?

 

[ballen0351]

Nice post! That's pretty much my take. IMO, I feel that the fighting skill will come from the practice of set drills, techniques, etc. They all go hand in hand. Boxing for example...they work numerous drills on the pads, yet when it's time to step into the ring, they're using the part of the drill that best fits their need at the moment.

People also need to work on the fighting skills part on their own. If all you do is go to class once or twice a week and never experiment and try things in your own you will never get past the basics. Like when I practice Kata. I break down every movement in the kata and say OK what's the reason for this. What else could be done to react to this situation other then what's in the kata. For example of the Kata calls for step off line up block then step and punch. Could I step off line the other way and throw a knee or side kick. Usually the kata makes the most sense for the situation but its still fun and makes me think outside the box

 

[ballen0351]

That may be why I also jump around and train in all kinds of other stuff. Goju is my main art but I've dabbled in Aikido, Judo, BJJ, isshin Ryu, Chin-na. Not because Goju is lacking but because I just want to know everything. Like I'm always looking for new schools and saying man I'd like to try that. Truth is I don't use any of it for self defense I carry a gun a cell phone and use common senseto avoid bad situations so iI train mainly because I like it.

 

[MJS]

I assume "sport" may mean "cross training" and TMA may mean to "keep system pure" (it may not mean "cross training").

Sure, for the sake of discussion.

I also assume that we are not talking about sport such as boxing, wrestling, Judo, ... here. So the discussion of "sport" vs. "TMA" is really to discuss whether or not the "cross training" is necessary, or whether or not TMA is against "cross training".

Actually, anything that falls into the sport category can be used, so sure, boxing can be used as an example. As we know, cross training is a big part of sport fighting. My question was whether or not one method is superior to the other.

Here is a question. When your opponent tries to punch you, will you

1. block his punch?
2. dodge his punch?
3. wrap his punching arms to obtain "clinch"?

If you apply the 1st and the 2nd strategies, your opponent will punch you again. If you apply the 3rd strategy, what will you do after you have obtained a "clinch"? In order to continue after "clinch", you have to be good in grappling. If "cross training" is a must then "sport testing" is also a must. When you take this approach, I truly don't see any difference between "sport" and "TMA".

We all know that it's better to use

- striking to against a grappler.
- grappling to against a striker.

If you want to have both abilities, your will need to "cross train" and you will need to test your integration of striking and grappling in "sport".

Hmm...but if we apply boxing to 1 and 2, what do we see? A block/evasion, and then counter punching. If you clinch in boxing, you get seperated.

 

[SENC-33]

Something to think about....

Unless your line of work depends on you having the ability to protect yourself and/or others you are unlikely to encounter trouble of serious magnitude in your life unless you choose to seek trouble. While I don't train TMA I see no reason why the typical training regiment wouldn't properly prepare you should the need arise. You can gain a LOT from kata in my opinion. Balance and structure, precision, focus, power and confidence to name a few. Do I think a kata will just pop out of you in a real life situation? NO.......but kata does harden the warrior spirit.

 

[MJS]

Why RTKDCMB? A nice cross section of martial arts, including TKD was shown and they got defeated. It seams every time this type of video is posted, the same comment gets thrown out. "Oh he was not a good xxxx practitioner." The comments are always vague saying they lacked basic fundamentals. These comments crop up every single time. IF there are so many Great TMA out there, why are they not being represented? Why haven't they accepted the challenge and proven them selves and there art legit?

I keep hearing about all these fantastic TMA that wouldn't fall prey, yet they never appear.

I honestly don't care what anyone learns, they need to do more then a few minutes of ground grappling every week so they don't spaz out when they inevitably get taken down.

Well, pretty much what ballen said, in addition to the guy from xxxx art not having any desire to take part in the challenge. Now for myself, while I don't do challenge matches, I do like to test myself. For example...I'd take some of the takedown defenses in Kenpo and test them against a grappler. If they worked, great. If they ddin't, then I'd make adjustments as needed.

 

[MJS]

You don't need to sucker punch someone to get a lucky punch. They happen all the time in the UFC the crazy knock out that shouldn't have happened but did. Does that mean that guy was better or does it mean he got lucky. Was Matt Serra a better fighter then GSP or on that night at that time did he win? That's the point of these videos all it proved was one guy beat the other at that time. Were the Gracie's better? Yes I'm sure they are because they were the top of their field hell they practically invented their field.

I agree with you here!!! This is why I'm not a big buyer into youtube, for the reason you said.

 

[MJS]

The thread seems to be drifting again.

Yup. I'm not surprised.

 

[MJS]

All of which were legal in UFC 1-6 and none of which worked.. Case in point. The HKD guy in the challenge videos, he kept trying to sack grab, and guess what, didn't work.. Plenty of hair pulling, fish hooking and other crap on the list in UFC 1-6 NONE OF THEM WORKED.

FWIW, check out the fight at 35:11. That downward elbow at 35:29 seemed to be pretty effective, just sayin'.

*edit* guess it would've been nice to link the fight.

I don't know how you think I said you needed to submit someone on the ground. I was mainly talking about learning and being comfortable in those main positions as if you get taken down in a real fight, your going to end up in one or more of those. Learning how to stop a submission attempt(Which can be a joint break, I don't have to sub you. I can break you.) is easy. Being able to get out of that situation, in those common places to get trapped in is paramount. As to the spazzing out part. Unless your comfortable actually fighting on the ground, most people spaz the first few times. I know I did coming from boxing, as did the TKD black belt that I pwnt in mma rules sparring..(Which felt so good when it happened. I was so proud) Again there are plenty of videos of people spazzing.

Now defining spazzing is important. First few times I did roll, I spent great quantities of energy trying anything, to get out of bottom. I ended up spent in less then a minute thanks to doing nothing effective. One guy said I looked like Squidward. (some guy from spongebob). Part of my comment on not spazzing is realizing the need to stay calm and as Rener is fond of saying, don't resist what is. If the guy on top is in full mount control mode(as opposed to attacking) just chill and rest. He is most vulnerable when he is attacking. Problem is, newbs to ground wont realize that if they have little to no exposure to it. That is my definition of spazzing.

My only 2 fights that I have ever had, I lost, because of my lack of ground grappling skills and spazzing.. You don't need the entire GJJ black belt syllabus, but you should be comfortable and have actual useable techniques to escape mount(bottom and top)/sidemount(bottom and top) and half guard and guard while knowing how to stop the basic submissions. Being comfortable on the ground is usefull. Spazzing is not, which is what will happen if you have no experience there.

As for the rest of this...I'm in agreement. All things that I've advocated for a long time.

 

[Hanzou]

The first one seems to be just practice at grabbing and breaking someones fingers. Only a little strange.

Yeah, that makes no sense. How in the world do you control the fingers of a standing opponent while sitting on the ground? Further, in both those videos, why don't you just stand up instead of trying to manipulate someone's fingers?

The second one is just practicing slowly how to defend against getting kicked on the ground. Not strange at all.

Honestly it's better to stand up than trying that nonsense I saw in the video.

 

[MJS]

So you're of the opinion that what doesn't work in sport works well in the street, and works great in sport doesn't work well in the street? I'm just trying to clarify your viewpoint here.

Yes, we know the Gracies were defeated. The point was that people were actively using Bjj in situations where dirty tricks were employed, and Bjj did just fine.



I'm pretty sure I said "In terms of ground fighting".

The bold part is really the only thing that I was looking to discuss. I wanted to compare sport to TMA. As for BJJ or the Gracie being superior, that's been beat like a dead horse in the other threads.

 

[MJS]

Can they work? Sure. Would I depend on scratching, spitting or biting to stop an attack? No. They're low percentage attacks that are more likely to piss off your attacker more (and get you a blood-borne disease) instead of stopping them. Additionally, if I'm close enough to bite or scratch someone, I'd prefer to choke them, or dislocate one of their body parts.



Um, Bjj is comprehensive in terms or ground fighting and in general.

You are correct...those things are low percentage moves. However, be that as it may, that doesnt mean that one or more couldn't be used to set up a higher percentage move. Things like that can provide a momentary distraction to set up something else.

 

[ballen0351]

Yeah, that makes no sense. How in the world do you control the fingers of a standing opponent while sitting on the ground? Further, in both those videos, why don't you just stand up instead of trying to manipulate someone's fingers?



Honestly it's better to stand up than trying that nonsense I saw in the video.

It makes no sense to you because you don't study that art. If someone doesn't study judo and watch people doing fitting drills they would think that looks silly they are just chest bumping.

 

[Hanzou]

The bold part is really the only thing that I was looking to discuss. I wanted to compare sport to TMA. As for BJJ or the Gracie being superior, that's been beat like a dead horse in the other threads.

I'm willing to bet that if a boxer can knock out someone in the ring, they can knock someone out on the street.

 

[MJS]

Because it is like using Wikipedia for research. Any idiot can post a video, it may be a nice cross section but its not an accurate one. As I have said before, judging an art based on a few scattered videos is like judging a movie based only on the previews.

Agreed!

Several reasons;

1) Some arts are only for self defence, challenging someone to a fight or accepting a challenge is not self defence.
2) Not everybody feels they need to "prove" anything and many of those that do only prove they are d!#ks.
3) Not everyone wants to hurt people for no good reason.
4) Not all arts want to display that side of their art.
5) Not everyone has access to a Gracie.
6) Not everyone feels the need to video everything.
7) Etc.

Agreed again!

Ask yourself this. Why do the Gracies not test their art by attacking someone on the street? That's the only true test of a martial artist's fighting skills.

Ohh...careful. Someone will mention the fights in Brazil. Seriously though, I know what you're talking about and I agree.

Self defence arts are proven legit when their students are attacked in the street and they defend themselves effectively, not from accepting a challenge match by someone who thinks they need to prove themselves. That has been done on many occasions, usually off camera.

Another damn good point! Interestinly enough, many of my close friends and training partners have survived using the skills they've trained in, and not all of them are grapplers.

 

[lklawson]

I'm willing to bet that if a boxer can knock out someone in the ring, they can knock someone out on the street.

[insert "boxer breaks own hand" arguments and videos HERE]

Peace favor your sword,
Kirk