Sparring: Contact or Not? Where?

[JWLuiza]

Not in my experience. I've taken full force backfists from some of our more enthusiastic students and it never came close to knocking me out. Didn't even hurt too bad. Punches on the other hand hurt a lot more, and cause knockouts more readily - aim for the chin!

I would tend to agree, which is why I am suprised by this trainof thought. A backfist to the temple is the only way I'd be worried.

 

[foggymorning162]

A backfist to the temple is the only way I'd be worried.

The temple scares me I read an articles about temple shots killing people I don't remember which mag it was in now, one our instructor gets.

 

[Kwanjang]

I would tend to agree, which is why I am suprised by this trainof thought. A backfist to the temple is the only way I'd be worried.

I agree! I've been hit in the temple full force by my big brother when we were in our early twenties. It dropped me like a rock. A big ol flash of light.....if ya know what I mean? :xtrmshock

 

[Lynne]

Oh...we backfist to the temple (Kap Kwan Kyon Kyuk) my friends - that's the target. Backfist to the temple, reverse punch to the solar plexus is a routine training drill.

This is why I say it's not hard for us lower belts to strike the face instead of the temple. It takes a lot of control and accuracy to strike the temple at our level.

In fact, I haven't backfisted to any other part of the body than the temple. Now, in the drills we make no contact. In sparring, we do. However, a good backfist without contact is acceptable if followed by a reverse punch that makes contact (in sparring).

 

[foggymorning162]

In tournament sparring we only allow a back fist if it's not blind which makes a spinning backfist very hard to pull off because even if you look first will the judges see that? so we discourage spinning backfists as I said before though no contact either way.

 

[JWLuiza]

I agree! I've been hit in the temple full force by my big brother when we were in our early twenties. It dropped me like a rock. A big ol flash of light.....if ya know what I mean? :xtrmshock

And with the big ol cushy safety hand gear, the chance of a knockout to the temple is nullified.

 

[foggymorning162]

I found this it is boxing but I think it is still relavant. Notice how many deaths are do to head injuries.
http://ejmas.com/jcs/jcsart_svinth_b_0700.htm

 

[Lynne]

No more backfists to the temple from me. I'll just do the set-up in sparring class.

 

[Gizmo]

Our TSD friends in Poland often invite us to their tournaments so we also have a chance to see how their sparring looks like. They use two types of sparring. Point-stop is similar to other styles. Basically all boxing techniques and the backfist strike are allowed, plus kicks above the belt. Contact is allowed to the body and to the head, including the face. Control is required. Continuous contact in Polish TSD - the same techniques allowed as in point-stop plus low-kicks to the thighs, no sweeps. Solid contact is allowed in this division and kids are not allowed to participate. On the last Open Polish Championships there was a fair share of TKD, Kickboxing & Karate people taking part. Some nice knockdowns...

 

[e ship yuk]

Our previous tournament org was light-to-medium contact. Target areas were the front of the torso from the seam on the shoulder to the belt, the kidneys, groin, sides of the neck, anywhere there was foam on the headgear; face contact was introduced at the "advanced" level, i.e. 3rd gup+ as light contact, and raised to medium contact for dans. Sweeps of the front foot were allowed, but only to the back of the foot; you had to strike the pad on his foot with the pad on your foot, and you were expected to control your opponent's fall if he actually went to the ground. Three seconds were allotted to strike a downed opponent before the match would be stopped. Grabs were also allowed, but had to be used to benefit a strike - no grappling.

Control was always expected - any technique passing through the center line of the opponent was considered excessive contact and drew a warning.Any reddening of the skin the same. "Rocking the head" drew an immediate penalty. Drawing of blood was immediate disqualification.

In-class sparring was much the same, without stopping for points, and we as a school allowed a broader range of techniques - knees, some grappling.

 

[Kwanjang]

And with the big ol cushy safety hand gear, the chance of a knockout to the temple is nullified.

Unfortunatley, this was a bare knuckle fight between a big brother and a little brother. I backed him up pretty good, then the temple shot! He Kicked My........

 

[tko4u]

Unfortunatley, this was a bare knuckle fight between a big brother and a little brother. I backed him up pretty good, then the temple shot! He Kicked My........

how long ago was that?

 

[Master Jay S. Penfil]

Straight punches are allowed to the head. Sometimes, judges will not allow backfists as it's not too hard to do a knock out; often they will not even allow a fake backfist as a set up for a reverse punch due to students' lack of control. Sometimes, judges will allow backfists regardless of what the rules say.quote]

Lynne,
I have trained and sparred with practitioners of more systems then you can name over the past 37 years. One of the issues in competitions for the longest time was that Tae Kwon Do judges would not award points for backfists because they felt that they were not viable weapons and couldn't effectively do any real damage.

We would execute beautiful backfists, be warned not to use them as they had no power, start the match again, do a great backfist, K.O. our opponents and then be disqualified for not using control...

Go Figure...

Then we would respond; but you refused to award me my last point because you claimed that it was a weak technique!!! You can't deny me a point for a well focused backfist and then DQ me for showing that it works...

This is one of the many resons that I don't get involved in tournaments. The rules are usually not enforced fairly across the board.

One tournament that I have been to several years in a row that is well run is the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan International Championships. KJN Ferraro and his association members do an outstanding job of running there tournament every year. I have not been to any of their local level tournaments, but I am told that they are as well run as their internationals. SBN Michael Tabone could elaborate here on the local competitions...

All the best,

Sensei Jay S. Penfil

 

[Lynne]

Straight punches are allowed to the head. Sometimes, judges will not allow backfists as it's not too hard to do a knock out; often they will not even allow a fake backfist as a set up for a reverse punch due to students' lack of control. Sometimes, judges will allow backfists regardless of what the rules say.quote]

Lynne,
I have trained and sparred with practitioners of more systems then you can name over the past 37 years. One of the issues in competitions for the longest time was that Tae Kwon Do judges would not award points for backfists because they felt that they were not viable weapons and couldn't effectively do any real damage.

We would execute beautiful backfists, be warned not to use them as they had no power, start the match again, do a great backfist, K.O. our opponents and then be disqualified for not using control...

Go Figure...

Then we would respond; but you refused to award me my last point because you claimed that it was a weak technique!!! You can't deny me a point for a well focused backfist and then DQ me for showing that it works...

This is one of the many resons that I don't get involved in tournaments. The rules are usually not enforced fairly across the board.

One tournament that I have been to several years in a row that is well run is the Tang Soo Do Mi Guk Kwan International Championships. KJN Ferraro and his association members do an outstanding job of running there tournament every year. I have not been to any of their local level tournaments, but I am told that they are as well run as their internationals. SBN Michael Tabone could elaborate here on the local competitions...

All the best,

Sensei Jay S. Penfil

Our school is part of the UTC along with Grandmaster Ferraro's school. Some day, I hope to make it to a competition at his school in West Haven, CT.

Today and tomorrow, our school hosts our annual tournament. Last year, we had over 400 competitors (I believe). I was told we are expecting 2,000 this year - not sure if that's hopeful thinking or actual commitments. That means we will need a ton more judges but the rules are clear and outlined.

The tournament rules specifically state no face contact but some master judges will allow a backfist to the temple. I am not saying our association's Grandmaster or my Sa Ba Num support that either. I doubt they do. But I have stopped doing backfists in class sparring because I think my muscle memory will get me in trouble in a competition. Of course we do drills with backfisting so it's rather natural to do a backfist-reverse punch combination.

Sometimes judges will not call blatant violations which surprises me. In a past tournament, a competitor was being constantly battered below the belt, with kicks to the hips and the thighs. (We aren't doing Muay Thai after all.) The competitor ended up limping out of the ring and quit Tang Soo Do because of unfair judging. What a shame because they were 2nd gup. But bad judging can dampen one's spirit - at least for competing.

 

[Lynne]

We had several men disqualified in our tournament this past weekend. They drew blood but these situations were accidents. In one case, one person was doing an axe kick and the opponent turned into it with his nose. Another had to concede his sparring match because of a powerful kick to his ribs. I heard there was a knockout - I don't know if that's true or if anyone was disqualified. I don't think you would be disqualified for a knockout. It doesn't take excessive force to deliver a "knockout" kick or punch.

I was watching the green belt men spar because we were sharing the same ring. One poor fellow got kicked in the groin twice in the same match. The first time he was down for about 3 minutes. I will say he wears his belt awfully low, not too far from the sensitive area. I think that's a bad idea. Your opponent may not be controlled, he might be wild. He might aim for the kidneys but could easily hit below.

I think all of these situations are normal for TSD matches.