Modern Point Sparring (not the way it used to be)

[isshinryuronin5 5]

I stayed up late to watch a 2023 WKF tournament final on TV, and even later to post this. There was plenty of action, but it was the same action over and over. Three different matches, six "fighters", each with three minutes of sparring action. The only scoring (or even executed) techniques were lead roundhouse kicks and reverse punches - that's it, just two techniques!

All six used the same stance: Very deep (so vulnerable to sweeps, but I guess that's not legal now) facing sideways with constant bouncing. Very little in the way of tactics, just quick hops in and a scoring attempt with one of the two moves I mentioned. Zero lateral movement. Multidimensional it was not. A formal warning was given to one fighter for "excessive" contact to the face with a padded hand - no blood or even head snapping back.

Gi's had manufacturer's name prominently displayed in large letters, and at least one had a sponsor's name/logo as well.

IMO, all of these finalists would get creamed in a match with a competent fighter from the 60's or 70's. It's way past my bedtime now, but I had to vent so I can get to sleep. It may have been the WKF, but I say WTF!

 

[skribs114 135]

I think a lot of the point-sparring games can be incredibly fun done in class or at the local level, but end up min-maxed at the highest levels of competition around some sort of meta. I know TKD has had this problem with the Olympics being incredibly boring, and WT (formerly WTF) making changes in part to try and make it more exciting to watch.

This isn't something unique to combat sports. I know MLB baseball has recently put restrictions on how long pitchers can take for their windups because games were just dragging on. NFL football has looked into how often there are commercial breaks, especially during the 2-minute warning.

I know with Taekwondo at least, one of the nice things is that higher difficulty techniques score more points. The values constantly change as they update the rules, but the general rule of thumb is:

• Punches don't usually score, but punches that knock someone down or make them stagger backwards score 1 point
• Kicks to the body score 1 point
• Kicks to the head score 2 points
• Spinning kicks score 2 points
• Spinning head kicks score 3 points

One of the reasons kicks below the belt (including leg kicks) aren't allowed in TKD is because of injury, but also because it's easy. Same why you're not allowed to punch to the head - a mix of protecting folks from concussions, but also because it's easy to punch someone in the head, compared to a kick to the head. Kicks are more powerful, but land less frequently, and kicks to the head are usually only allowed at upper belts (such as red and black).

While this still leads to some metas evolving at the highest level, you have a lot of different styles in TKD.

• You have your aggressive roundhouse spammers that try to rack up points with volume of technique.
• You have your head-hunters that try to score more points with flexibility.
• You have your acrobatic kickers that try to score more points with spinning kicks
• You have folks who like to counter-kick with footwork and timing. Either I dodge your kick and score (I get 1 more point) or I take a normal kick and land a spinning kick (I get 1 more point).

Personally, I liked using different chambers for different kicks to throw people off. I also liked to chain kicks together without putting my foot down (turn the recoil from one kick into the chamber for the next). I also would tell folks, "I don't watch the Olympics because it's boring."

 

[isshinryuronin5 5]

one of the nice things is that higher difficulty techniques score more points.

This is a mixed blessing. It makes sense from a technical standpoint, but is a fighting competition the right time and place? IMO it's more appropriate to reward such techniques in forms competition or belt tests.

As expressed in other threads, these moves have a lower percentage of landing and present risks one would not want to take in a self-defense context. And a good punch to the head can cause considerable damage like a kick but is quicker, higher percentage and less risky in an actual fight.

I'm not against the idea of sport TMA and accept some modification to fit a rule set, but I would like it to not stray too far from the core MA concept of practical self-defense combat. The current path of highly organized point sparring competition is on its way to becoming too technique/tactic-limited, sanitized and unrealistic IMO.

BTW, just to be clear, my use "WTF" did not refer to the World Taekwondo Federation.

 

[skribs114 135]

The sport you described in your OP is already sportified. This is similar to Churchill's discussion of "We already determined what kind of person you are, now we're haggling price." If you are going to sporterize it, you might as well make it something that's not just roundhouse kick and reverse punch.

I completely disagree that these moves are a bad idea in self-defense. Having thrown literally hundreds of thousands of spinning kicks over the course of my training, I would much rather use a more powerful technique that I have high confidence in.

 

[isshinryuronin5 5]

The sport you described in your OP is already sportified. This is similar to Churchill's discussion of "We already determined what kind of person you are, now we're haggling price." If you are going to sporterize it, you might as well make it something that's not just roundhouse kick and reverse punch.

I completely disagree that these moves are a bad idea in self-defense. Having thrown literally hundreds of thousands of spinning kicks over the course of my training, I would much rather use a more powerful technique that I have high confidence in.

I fully agree with your first point.

You're winning me over a bit with your second point, and though I've thrown my share of spinning back kicks in my time, I tend to not want to turn my back to an opponent. Then, again, I'm not a specialist in this move, spending my time on other techniques, so it's probably wise I don't rely on it. I'm sure you're more adept at it than I am. Benny Urquidez had a devastating close-range spinning kick targeting the ribs, taking out top opponents in full contact competition. He specialized in everything.

 

[Kung Fu Wang115 146]

The only scoring (or even executed) techniques were lead roundhouse kicks and reverse punches - that's it, just two techniques!

2 questions:

1. Is side kick used more often in Karate/TKD than roundhouse kick?
2. Why hook punch is not emphasized in Karate/TKD?

 

[isshinryuronin5 5]

2 questions:

1. Is side kick used more often in Karate/TKD than roundhouse kick?
2. Why hook punch is not emphasized in Karate/KD?

1. The roundhouse is used more often in karate (skribs can speak to TKD). It's more mobile, being able to be thrown from multiple angles and distances, and being more of a snap rather than thrust, is quicker. This also allows one to immediately follow up with the hands. It's also easier for most people to kick higher with it than a side kick. With the ball of the foot as the striking part, it has pinpoint accuracy, able to slip thru a guard into small, unprotected targets and generally harder to block.

2. Some styles fight with longer range techniques as part of their fighting doctrine, especially in tournament sparring. In the sport context, close-range strikes are harder for the judges to see so there is a motivation to use larger movements. Traditional Okinawan styles being more close-in and not so modified for sport are more apt to use the hook. Still, it is often neglected. My style has it as part of our kihon (curriculum basics) and in non-sport application I think it's a vital weapon. The short right hook is my strongest punch.

 

[Kung Fu Wang115 146]

1. The roundhouse is used more often in karate (skribs can speak to TKD). It's more mobile, being able to be thrown from multiple angles and distances, and being more of a snap rather than thrust, is quicker.

The reason that I ask because most of the CMA systems don't even have roundhouse kick.

The roundhouse kick has no value in ancient battlefield when both persons hold swords. In a sword fight, you may have chance to throw a front kick, your roundhouse kick will just send your leg toward your opponent's blade.

 

[isshinryuronin5 5]

The reason that I ask because most of the CMA systems don't even have roundhouse kick.

The roundhouse kick has no value in ancient battlefield when both persons hold swords. In a sword fight, you may have chance to throw a front kick, your roundhouse kick will just send your leg toward your opponent's blade.

Karate developed mostly in a civilian combat environment, not for battlefield applications.

 

[Same Trick60 11]

2 questions:

1. Is side kick used more often in Karate/TKD than roundhouse kick?
2. Why hook punch is not emphasized in Karate/TKD?

Traditionally as found in kata(Taolu) there is a roundhouse’ish kick, goes in an arch from outside and in and hits with sole of foot, in kata it hit one’s outstretched hand,
Modern roundhouse kick is said come from savate.

Haito Uchi - ridge hand stike has similarity with hook punch.
Haito as opposite to Shuto- sword hand strike(sharp edge of sword) , Haito(blunt/back of sword)

 

[isshinryuronin5 5]

there is a roundhouse’ish kick, goes in an arch from outside and in and hits with sole of foot, in kata it hit one’s outstretched hand,

You're describing an inside crescent kick (mikazuki geri) which, aside from coming from the same direction, is nothing like a roundhouse (mawashi geri) in structure, power generation or execution.

Haito Uchi - ridge hand stike has similarity with hook punch.

Same as above.

 

[Same Trick60 11]

You're describing an inside crescent kick (mikazuki geri) which, aside from coming from the same direction, is nothing like a roundhouse (mawashi geri) in structure, power generation or execution.

Same as above.

Hence- ”similarity” and ”roundhouse’ish”

 

[Same Trick60 11]

You're describing an inside crescent kick (mikazuki geri) which, aside from coming from the same direction, is nothing like a roundhouse (mawashi geri) in structure, power generation or execution.

Same as above.

How about - kage-tzuki(hook punch). Found in Naihanchi/Tekki shodan(not in isshinryu) and pinan/heian sandan kata

 

[skribs114 135]

2 questions:

1. Is side kick used more often in Karate/TKD than roundhouse kick?
2. Why hook punch is not emphasized in Karate/TKD?

Specifically talking about Olympic-style Taekwondo competitions:

1. The roundhouse kick is the "jab" of Taekwondo sparring. It's a lot easier to work in with the footwork and angles we use. It's a lot easier to use it to set up spinning kicks because of the rotation during the kick. (Side kicks pause your rotation). Side kicks in TKD are mostly used as a check kick to block your opponent's momentum or frame against them, which doesn't always score. Roundhouse kicks also use the top of the foot, which is where the sensors are in electronic scoring. A roundhouse kick can score easier because it relies on sensor contact instead of judges scoring the technique, and there's a number of reasons the judges may not score it (including they just don't push the button at the same time).
2. Hook punches are not allowed. Only straight punches to the body.

 

[isshinryuronin5 5]

Specifically talking about Olympic-style Taekwondo competitions:

1. The roundhouse kick is the "jab" of Taekwondo sparring. It's a lot easier to work in with the footwork and angles we use. It's a lot easier to use it to set up spinning kicks because of the rotation during the kick. (Side kicks pause your rotation). Side kicks in TKD are mostly used as a check kick to block your opponent's momentum or frame against them, which doesn't always score. Roundhouse kicks also use the top of the foot, which is where the sensors are in electronic scoring. A roundhouse kick can score easier because it relies on sensor contact instead of judges scoring the technique, and there's a number of reasons the judges may not score it (including they just don't push the button at the same time).
2. Hook punches are not allowed. Only straight punches to the body.

This kind of competition draconian ruleset, also found outside of TKD, limits techniques that are allowed which, in turn, limits the tactics and creativity in sparring, taking the fun out of it.

 

[windwalker099115 146]

This kind of competition draconian ruleset, also found outside of TKD, limits techniques that are allowed which, in turn, limits the tactics and creativity in sparring, taking the fun out of it.

Have you ever looked at the rule set for boxing?

If someone goes to watch what’s advertised as a boxing match, they’re not expecting to see BJJ or TKD. Every format has rules — those rules don’t just limit things, they define what’s being trained and expressed… including the type of tactics and creativity that show up.

 

[skribs114 135]

This kind of competition draconian ruleset, also found outside of TKD, limits techniques that are allowed which, in turn, limits the tactics and creativity in sparring, taking the fun out of it.

Arguably it's more fun than spamming leg kicks....or getting punched in the head.

I've done some pretty creative things in TKD style sparring. My first 540 back kick was something I came up with on the spot when I missed a back kick, and figured I'd just jump and spin and throw another one. A lot of the tricky chambers and re-chambers that I use are tactics I developed in TKD sparring.

Also, as someone who now trains BJJ, I could probably argue that whatever Karate sparring ruleset you're using doesn't have any ground fighting (correct me if I'm wrong in that assumption), and therefore that limits the tactics and creativity in sparring.

 

[HighKick]

I stayed up late to watch a 2023 WKF tournament final on TV, and even later to post this. There was plenty of action, but it was the same action over and over. Three different matches, six "fighters", each with three minutes of sparring action. The only scoring (or even executed) techniques were lead roundhouse kicks and reverse punches - that's it, just two techniques!

All six used the same stance: Very deep (so vulnerable to sweeps, but I guess that's not legal now) facing sideways with constant bouncing. Very little in the way of tactics, just quick hops in and a scoring attempt with one of the two moves I mentioned. Zero lateral movement. Multidimensional it was not. A formal warning was given to one fighter for "excessive" contact to the face with a padded hand - no blood or even head snapping back.

Gi's had manufacturer's name prominently displayed in large letters, and at least one had a sponsor's name/logo as well.

IMO, all of these finalists would get creamed in a match with a competent fighter from the 60's or 70's. It's way past my bedtime now, but I had to vent so I can get to sleep. It may have been the WKF, but I say WTF!

Not certain what you were watching but it does Not follow the WKF sparring rules.
WKF Sparring Rules

 

[isshinryuronin5 5]

Not certain what you were watching but it does Not follow the WKF sparring rules.
WKF Sparring Rules

Went thru most of the 57 pages of rules - Wow! A lot has changed in 50 years. Here is the rule set I competed under: Wear a gi. Obey the ref. One good strike=one point. Contact not necessary if the strike could have been fully delivered. Don't attack the joints, eyes or neck. Don't make head contact hard enough to snap the head back or try to intentionally injure the opponent. Don't use uncontrolled technique or otherwise be an a**hole.
That was pretty much it. Ahhh, life was so simple.

Is a rule on how long your belt can be really necessary? It was interesting to see that having the gi manufacture's name across the shoulders is required but I can't imagine why. The level of codification is amazing, though I understand that standardization was needed as the sport became more organized with rankings and such in the interest of fairness. I am confident that if I competed in one of those tournaments, I would surely be disqualified for some infraction, but at least I'd have some fun.

I wonder how the current young competitors would view the karate competition of the 60's and early 70's. Unfortunately, there is very, very little video of those days. Just stories by old men.

I re-read my OP and don't see where it earned the comment I quoted as I didn't address the sparring rule set except for the head contact I mentioned. The main generalized point I was making was that the fighters had identical stances and attacks with little footwork besides stepping straight in to close distance. It just seemed sooo --- generic. No color, just dull gray. Not this dinosaur's cup of cha.

 

[windwalker099115 146]

I wonder how the current young competitors would view the karate competition of the 60's and early 70's. Unfortunately, there is very, very little video of those days. Just stories by old men.