Modern Point Sparring (not the way it used to be)

[HighKick]

Has anyone here sparred(point fighting style) against some of the top point fighters of today ? I mean facing on the mat one might see differently

I think you would need to research the USKA, NASKA, or similar organizations and drill down from there to find the major players.
Without a doubt, I sparred some of the best in open tournaments back in the day. There were fewer tournament overall, so we often went to any tournament we could find but they were not my primary sparring organization WT(F).
I vividly remember sparring Keith Vitali. I got paired with Steve Anderson when weight classes got all dumped together once. That was, interesting.
Good times.

 

[Buka30 4]

I’m feeling old. I was around lot of those guys, fought some of them, too.
Tournaments were a lot fun back then. You made a lot of Karate friends, too.

 

[Buka30 4]

I stayed up late to watch a 2023 WKF tournament final on TV, and even later to post this. There was plenty of action, but it was the same action over and over. Three different matches, six "fighters", each with three minutes of sparring action. The only scoring (or even executed) techniques were lead roundhouse kicks and reverse punches - that's it, just two techniques!

All six used the same stance: Very deep (so vulnerable to sweeps, but I guess that's not legal now) facing sideways with constant bouncing. Very little in the way of tactics, just quick hops in and a scoring attempt with one of the two moves I mentioned. Zero lateral movement. Multidimensional it was not. A formal warning was given to one fighter for "excessive" contact to the face with a padded hand - no blood or even head snapping back.

Gi's had manufacturer's name prominently displayed in large letters, and at least one had a sponsor's name/logo as well.

IMO, all of these finalists would get creamed in a match with a competent fighter from the 60's or 70's. It's way past my bedtime now, but I had to vent so I can get to sleep. It may have been the WKF, but I say WTF!

Not in the seventies, but in the early eighties, I used to go to sleep dreaming about tournament fighters throwing front foot roundhouses to my face/head.

One of my guys was fighting for the vacant PKA middleweight title when Bill Wallace retired. The fight was in Detroit. (My guy lost to Jean-Eves Theriault, one of the best fighters I’ve ever seen, a class act and one of the nicest guys I’ve ever met) There was a point tournament during the day, and since I never went anywhere without my fighting gear, I decided to enter.

There were over one thousand competitors, all wearing white gis, except a few of us in black.
Back then I had a blazing front foot roundhouse kick which I threw a lot of different ways and usually scored with it.

So, I come right of the line with it. It was beautiful and smoking fast. And I got knocked to my *** and was looking up at the guy. One to nothing, his lead.

Being me, and not very bright, I threw it again, only faster and with better timing. And there I was looking up at him again.

Yes, I threw it a third time. Not because I thought it was going to score, I just wanted to figure out how he was knocking me to the seat off my pants. He won, three to nothing. In twelve seconds by the scoring table’s clock.

Afterwards, I asked him how the heck he did that. He smirked and walked away.

It was a couple more years before someone taught me what happened. And it became a technique I was known for.

Good times.

 

[HighKick]

I’m feeling old. I was around lot of those guys, fought some of them, too.
Tournaments were a lot fun back then. You made a lot of Karate friends, too.

Yes Sir.
Ah, how the backfist was so prevalent back then. It was the nexus of 'speed kills'. Do people still use them?

 

[Same Trick60 11]

I think you would need to research the USKA, NASKA, or similar organizations and drill down from there to find the major players.
Without a doubt, I sparred some of the best in open tournaments back in the day. There were fewer tournament overall, so we often went to any tournament we could find but they were not my primary sparring organization WT(F).
I vividly remember sparring Keith Vitali. I got paired with Steve Anderson when weight classes got all dumped together once. That was, interesting.
Good times.

Yes, but my point was concerning the the OP supposed view that today’s WKF point fighters do not live up to previous generations skill. So me asking if someone here actually sparred any of today’s WKF fighters and so get a direkt feel of today’s point fighters are not as skilled in point fighting as yesterdays point fighters.
I myself spared and fought some good ones too in my area of the world (during 80’s- early 90’s) within WUKO and JKA organizations, but karate is in my past, however I can’t believe today’s generation of top players are any less skilled than those I in action have experience of.

 

[skribs114 134]

I’m feeling old.

I'll validate your feelings.

You're old.

 

[skribs114 134]

Not in the seventies, but in the early eighties, I used to go to sleep dreaming about tournament fighters throwing front foot roundhouses to my face/head.

One of my guys was fighting for the vacant PKA middleweight title when Bill Wallace retired. The fight was in Detroit. (My guy lost to Jean-Eves Theriault, one of the best fighters I’ve ever seen, a class act and one of the nicest guys I’ve ever met) There was a point tournament during the day, and since I never went anywhere without my fighting gear, I decided to enter.

There were over one thousand competitors, all wearing white gis, except a few of us in black.
Back then I had a blazing front foot roundhouse kick which I threw a lot of different ways and usually scored with it.

So, I come right of the line with it. It was beautiful and smoking fast. And I got knocked to my *** and was looking up at the guy. One to nothing, his lead.

Being me, and not very bright, I threw it again, only faster and with better timing. And there I was looking up at him again.

Yes, I threw it a third time. Not because I thought it was going to score, I just wanted to figure out how he was knocking me to the seat off my pants. He won, three to nothing. In twelve seconds by the scoring table’s clock.

Afterwards, I asked him how the heck he did that. He smirked and walked away.

It was a couple more years before someone taught me what happened. And it became a technique I was known for.

Good times.

...what was the technique that beat you/how did he beat you?

 

[HighKick]

Yes, but my point was concerning the the OP supposed view that today’s WKF point fighters do not live up to previous generations skill. So me asking if someone here actually sparred any of today’s WKF fighters and so get a direkt feel of today’s point fighters are not as skilled in point fighting as yesterdays point fighters.
I myself spared and fought some good ones too in my area of the world (during 80’s- early 90’s) within WUKO and JKA organizations, but karate is in my past, however I can’t believe today’s generation of top players are any less skilled than those I in action have experience of.

Doing a quick search, it looks like most of the WKA is outside the USA now. Looks like the spinoffs have more of a foothold here: WKA, USA-NKF, WUIKA, etc...
Is PKA still around?

 

[HighKick]

Not in the seventies, but in the early eighties, I used to go to sleep dreaming about tournament fighters throwing front foot roundhouses to my face/head.

One of my guys was fighting for the vacant PKA middleweight title when Bill Wallace retired. The fight was in Detroit. (My guy lost to Jean-Eves Theriault, one of the best fighters I’ve ever seen, a class act and one of the nicest guys I’ve ever met) There was a point tournament during the day, and since I never went anywhere without my fighting gear, I decided to enter.

There were over one thousand competitors, all wearing white gis, except a few of us in black.
Back then I had a blazing front foot roundhouse kick which I threw a lot of different ways and usually scored with it.

So, I come right of the line with it. It was beautiful and smoking fast. And I got knocked to my *** and was looking up at the guy. One to nothing, his lead.

Being me, and not very bright, I threw it again, only faster and with better timing. And there I was looking up at him again.

Yes, I threw it a third time. Not because I thought it was going to score, I just wanted to figure out how he was knocking me to the seat off my pants. He won, three to nothing. In twelve seconds by the scoring table’s clock.

Afterwards, I asked him how the heck he did that. He smirked and walked away.

It was a couple more years before someone taught me what happened. And it became a technique I was known for.

Good times.

Theriault!!! We sparred a couple of times in Chicago. Great times. His spins were deadly.

You remind me of one of my goto techniques which was a lead leg fake mid-level kick of several flavors (front, side, round) that was more of a tap to get them to drop their hands followed by a head shot roundhouse. It worked very well because I could throw it from an extremely close range and keep my stance and forward bias, so I could follow immediately if I needed to.
I could also front kick and outside crescent from the clinch very good. Really, really, great times.

 

[isshinryuronin5 4]

today’s point fighters are not as skilled in point fighting as yesterdays point fighters.
I myself spared and fought some good ones too in my area of the world (during 80’s- early 90’s) within WUKO and JKA organizations, but karate is in my past, however I can’t believe today’s generation of top players are any less skilled than those I in action have experience of.

I think that the video clearly shows a ferocity not seen nowadays, as well as a wider variety of techniques. As I noted, the rule set then was not as restrictive and thus allowed for these two facts. As rules became more standardized and limiting, the fighting style used followed suit, becoming more homogenized.

Tournament point sparring has become a style in itself. This is not new, the process really having begun after WWII and continuing to what we see today. By the 80's, a real difference was noticeable.

The modern rule set is more limiting and since fighters have to conform to the rule set to win, they are "victims" of the system. Not their fault. They are skilled within the confines of the system and spend their time practicing the things that are beneficial in the tournament environment. No insult meant to today's competitor's or the effort they put into their training.

 

[Buka30 4]

...what was the technique that beat you/how did he beat you?

Stood in a side stance facing the direction the kick would be coming from (he saw me warming up) slap blocked the kick - the slap leading him into a spinning hook kick. You can actually smack the front foot roundhouse kicker across his face before his roundhouse gets back to the ground.


It’s real easy to do from a side stance if you have good technique on spin kicks - no matter how fast he is.

 

[Buka30 4]

Theriault!!! We sparred a couple of times in Chicago. Great times. His spins were deadly.

You remind me of one of my goto techniques which was a lead leg fake mid-level kick of several flavors (front, side, round) that was more of a tap to get them to drop their hands followed by a head shot roundhouse. It worked very well because I could throw it from an extremely close range and keep my stance and forward bias, so I could follow immediately if I needed to.
I could also front kick and outside crescent from the clinch very good. Really, really, great times.

Jean-Eaves was one of the best Martial Artists I’ve ever known. And a really nice man, a class act.

 

[Same Trick60 11]

I think that the video clearly shows a ferocity not seen nowadays, as well as a wider variety of techniques. As I noted, the rule set then was not as restrictive and thus allowed for these two facts. As rules became more standardized and limiting, the fighting style used followed suit, becoming more homogenized.

Tournament point sparring has become a style in itself. This is not new, the process really having begun after WWII and continuing to what we see today. By the 80's, a real difference was noticeable.

The modern rule set is more limiting and since fighters have to conform to the rule set to win, they are "victims" of the system. Not their fault. They are skilled within the confines of the system and spend their time practicing the things that are beneficial in the tournament environment. No insult meant to today's competitor's or the effort they put into their training.

Yes the rules set of today’s WKF(world karate federation) competition looks somewhat restrictive compared to back when it was WUKO.
The WKF funktion is for all styles of traditional Karate to join in competitions, I can see that restricting technique to the more basic of techniques that most traditional karate styles might feel at home with could be a good idea for this all styles get together’ing.
And apart from that(WKF competition)most styles of traditional karate has their own organization competitions with their own specific rule sets.
So I don’t think that karate is at risk of becoming competitionwize technically watered down