Modern Point Sparring (not the way it used to be)

[Kung Fu Wang115 145]

I still remember that take down don't get any point. But the follow up striking after take down will get point.

 

[philwhite44 1]

I started point fighting in the 90s. I've mostly done open tournaments (a lot of NASKA stuff). Its way different than WKF. It has its good and bad side there too. Its usually pretty fun to watch and if you don't get mismatched it can be pretty fun competing. I've been paired up with fighters twice my size more than once. Thats sucks. Is it the most lethal or real fighting, not really. There are occasional KOs in BB divisions. There are a few great fighters that launched careers out of it. If you want to see excitement watch Raymond Daniels. NASKA also used to do something called super fights which was closer to kick boxing and a bit more playful. I think WKF is the worst offender. I'd rather watch Olympic TKD.

 

[isshinryuronin5 4]

,

That's what I'm talking about! That brought back some memories. Saw Darnell Garcia and Benny Urquidez in action as well as Ed Parker and a couple fighters and refs whose names I can't put with the faces. Benny looked fearsome, didn't he? A force of Nature. That clip was pretty representative of some of the more intense matches. Get hit in the face, just smile. It was exhilarating to have exchanges like that, win or lose. A good contrast of fighting style between then and what we see now. Thanks for coming up with it.

 

[marvin8]

IMO, all of these finalists would get creamed in a match with a competent fighter from the 60's or 70's. It's way past my bedtime now, but I had to vent so I can get to sleep. It may have been the WKF, but I say WTF!

Benny "The Jet" Urquidez fought Kong Fu Tak in 1981 in Hong Kong. This notable, often discussed "death match" or inter-style challenge occurred during the WKA's "Road to Hong Kong" event.

Kong Fu Tak (often billed as “Kung Fu Tak”) was a Hong Kong martial artist and stunt performer whose background was rooted primarily in traditional Chinese kung fu, rather than competitive kickboxing like his opponent.

His martial arts background:​

• Traditional Chinese Kung Fu– He trained in southern Chinese styles, with a strong emphasis on:
  • Hung Gar–type techniques (powerful stances, hand strikes)
  • Choy Li Fut influences (wide, swinging strikes and mobility)
• Forms (kata) and performance fighting – Like many Hong Kong film-era fighters, his training included choreographed combat and demonstration-style sparring.
• Limited full-contact competition experience – Unlike Benny Urquidez (“Benny the Jet”), Tak was not primarily a ring fighter, which showed in their bout.

Key contrast in that fight:​

• Kong Fu Tak → traditional stylist, more upright stance, less experience with modern ring tactics
• Benny Urquidez → full-contact kickboxing champion, blending karate, boxing, and practical ring strategy

Bottom line:​

Kong Fu Tak was a classically trained kung fu practitioner and film fighter, not a modern competitive kickboxer—so when he faced Urquidez, it was essentially traditional kung fu vs. full-contact kickboxing, with a big gap in real ring experience.

If you want, I can break down the actual fight and why it ended so quickly.

The fight between Kong Fu Tak and Benny Urquidez is a classic example of style vs. reality under pressure—and it ended very quickly because of a few key factors.

---

What actually happened (breakdown)​

1.​

• Kong Fu Tak came in with a traditional kung fu stance:
  • More upright
  • Hands lower and wider
  • Designed for forms and controlled exchanges
• Urquidez used a tight, modern fighting guard:
  • Hands high (boxing-style)
  • Balanced stance for kicking and punching
  • Constant movement and pressure

Right away, you can see Tak isn’t used to full-contact ring distance and timing.

---

2.​

• Urquidez immediately closed the distance
• He cut off space and forced Tak backward

This is crucial:
Traditional kung fu often assumes a different rhythm, while Urquidez fought like a professional ring tactician—controlling range and pace.

---

3.​

• Urquidez launched a fast combination
• Tak tried to respond but:
  • His guard wasn’t tight enough
  • His reactions weren’t conditioned for full-speed combinations

Urquidez landed clean, powerful strikes (punches and/or kicks depending on the version of the footage you’ve seen), overwhelming him almost instantly.

---

4.​

• Tak was quickly knocked down/overwhelmed
• The fight was stopped very early (often described as a near-instant stoppage)

---

Why it ended so fast​

1.​

• Urquidez: seasoned full-contact champion
• Tak: mostly traditional + performance-based fighting

This is the biggest factor.

---

2.​

• Urquidez trained with:
  • Full-speed sparring
  • Real impact conditioning
  • Ring strategy
• Tak’s training likely emphasized:
  • Forms
  • Controlled drills
  • Limited full-contact pressure

---

3.​

• Tak’s open guard left him exposed
• Urquidez exploited it immediately with tight, efficient striking

---

4.​

Getting hit full force, at speed, by a pro fighter is a completely different experience if you’re not used to it.
Tak looked unprepared for that intensity.

---

Big takeaway​

This fight is often cited to show:

It wasn’t “kung fu doesn’t work”—it was a trained competitor vs. a non-competitive stylist under full-contact rules.

If Kong Fu Tak had similar ring experience and conditioning, the fight likely would’ve looked very different.

---

If you want, I can compare this to other “traditional vs. full-contact” matchups (some had very different outcomes).

 

[windwalker099115 145]

Bottom line:​

it was essentially traditional kung fu vs. full-contact kickboxing, with a big gap in real ring experience.

No … it was someone being billed as a classically trained kung fu fighter vs. Benny the Jet …
without any real ring experience to back it up. Nothing in his movement reflected that background.
He looked like anyone else stepping into the ring without experience.

That was actually pretty common back in the 70s — people labeled or presenting themselves as representatives of CMA without having the skill set or experience to express it under those conditions.

 

[marvin8]

No … it was someone being billed as a classically trained kung fu fighter vs. Benny the Jet …
without any real ring experience to back it up. Nothing in his movement reflected that background.
He looked like anyone else stepping into the ring without experience.

That was actually pretty common back in the 70s — people labeled or presenting themselves as representatives of CMA without having the skill set or experience to express it under those conditions.

Nov 4, 2025

Zhao Honggang, a student of Tongbei influencer and self-proclaimed master Ge Wuyuan, decided to try his Tongbei skills on Power Slap. Yes, a Tongbei Kungfu guy answered the call to test themselves in a slapping competition! Let's see how this Tongbei guy does when taking on professional martial artists!

Ge Wuyuan (also known as Chen Kuo) is a prominent martial artist and a ninth-generation inheritor of Qijia Tongbeiquan, a branch of the traditional northern Chinese martial art Tongbeiquan. He gained international attention through the viral intersection of traditional kung fu and modern combat sports, specifically within the Power Slap community.

There are a few different claims mixed together in that argument, so it helps to separate them: power generation mechanics, ruleset/context, and training methods.

---

1) Is TCMA (like Tongbeiquan) better at generating power?​

Short answer: not inherently—both systems can generate high power, but they prioritize and train it differently.

• Tongbeiquan (TCMA)emphasizes:
  • Whole-body whipping mechanics (often described as “from the back” or “through the spine”)
  • Relaxation → sudden acceleration (a “snap” rather than constant tension)
  • Long-range striking and kinetic chaining
• Boxing (modern combat sport)emphasizes:
  • Ground-up force (feet → hips → torso → arm)
  • Tight kinetic efficiency under pressure
  • Repetition against resisting opponents

Biomechanically, both are using the same underlying principle:
kinetic chain.

So the idea that TCMA has special or superior power generation isn’t really supported. It’s more accurate to say:

• TCMA theoretically teaches good power mechanics
• Combat sports consistently pressure-test and refine them

---

2) Why did the boxer-looking competitor seem more effective?​

This is where context matters more than style.

A. Power Slap is a very specific skill​

The event itself—Power Slap—is NOT a fight. It rewards:

• One-shot impact delivery
• Ability to absorb impact without flinching
• Timing within strict rules

That’s very different from either:

• Sparring
• Self-defense
• Traditional forms practice

So success here doesn’t prove one system is better overall.

---

B. Training specificity beats theory​

Boxers (or combat sport athletes in general) typically:

• Hit pads and heavy bags thousands of times
• Spar against resistance
• Train under fatigue and pressure

That creates:

• Better timing
• Better impact conditioning
• Better delivery under stress

Many TCMA practitioners:

• Spend more time on forms, drills, or cooperative practice
• May not train full-force striking regularly

Result: even if the mechanics exist, they’re often less stress-tested.

---

C. The “no flinch” rule matters a lot​

The video makes a good point here.

In real striking:

• You don’t stay fully tensed
• You brace at the last moment

That’s basic impact mitigation and relates to reflexive responses like:

• startle reflex
• Timing-based muscle activation

But in Power Slap:

• You must appear not to flinch
• You’re essentially forced into unnatural preparation

So someone unfamiliar with the rules might:

• Over-tense early (bad for shock absorption)
• Mis-time their brace

---

3) Does this mean TCMA is less effective than modern combat sports?​

In most tested environments, yes—modern combat sports tend to outperform.

Not because TCMA is “fake,” but because:

• Combat sports = alive training + resistance + competition
• TCMA (in many cases) = less consistent pressure testing

That gap shows up in:

• MMA
• Kickboxing
• Even niche events like Power Slap

---

4) About Zhao Honggang specifically​

Credit where it’s due—stepping into something like this takes real courage.

• Zhao Honggang tested his skill publicly
• That’s more than most practitioners of any style do

One performance in a niche event doesn’t define:

• His skill
• His system
• Or TCMA as a whole

---

Bottom line​

• Power generation: Both TCMA and boxing use the same physics
• Effectiveness: Comes from training method, not style label
• This result: Likely reflects experience and specificity, not “TCMA vs boxing” superiority

---

If you want, I can break down the actual slap mechanics (frame-by-frame style) and point out exactly where the power difference likely came from.

 

[Same Trick60 11]

Nov 4, 2025

Zhao Honggang, a student of Tongbei influencer and self-proclaimed master Ge Wuyuan, decided to try his Tongbei skills on Power Slap. Yes, a Tongbei Kungfu guy answered the call to test themselves in a slapping competition! Let's see how this Tongbei guy does when taking on professional martial artists!

Ge Wuyuan (also known as Chen Kuo) is a prominent martial artist and a ninth-generation inheritor of Qijia Tongbeiquan, a branch of the traditional northern Chinese martial art Tongbeiquan. He gained international attention through the viral intersection of traditional kung fu and modern combat sports, specifically within the Power Slap community.

There are a few different claims mixed together in that argument, so it helps to separate them: power generation mechanics, ruleset/context, and training methods.

---

1) Is TCMA (like Tongbeiquan) better at generating power?​

Short answer: not inherently—both systems can generate high power, but they prioritize and train it differently.

• Tongbeiquan (TCMA)emphasizes:
  • Whole-body whipping mechanics (often described as “from the back” or “through the spine”)
  • Relaxation → sudden acceleration (a “snap” rather than constant tension)
  • Long-range striking and kinetic chaining
• Boxing (modern combat sport)emphasizes:
  • Ground-up force (feet → hips → torso → arm)
  • Tight kinetic efficiency under pressure
  • Repetition against resisting opponents

Biomechanically, both are using the same underlying principle:
kinetic chain.

So the idea that TCMA has special or superior power generation isn’t really supported. It’s more accurate to say:

• TCMA theoretically teaches good power mechanics
• Combat sports consistently pressure-test and refine them

---

2) Why did the boxer-looking competitor seem more effective?​

This is where context matters more than style.

A. Power Slap is a very specific skill​

The event itself—Power Slap—is NOT a fight. It rewards:

• One-shot impact delivery
• Ability to absorb impact without flinching
• Timing within strict rules

That’s very different from either:

• Sparring
• Self-defense
• Traditional forms practice

So success here doesn’t prove one system is better overall.

---

B. Training specificity beats theory​

Boxers (or combat sport athletes in general) typically:

• Hit pads and heavy bags thousands of times
• Spar against resistance
• Train under fatigue and pressure

That creates:

• Better timing
• Better impact conditioning
• Better delivery under stress

Many TCMA practitioners:

• Spend more time on forms, drills, or cooperative practice
• May not train full-force striking regularly

Result: even if the mechanics exist, they’re often less stress-tested.

---

C. The “no flinch” rule matters a lot​

The video makes a good point here.

In real striking:

• You don’t stay fully tensed
• You brace at the last moment

That’s basic impact mitigation and relates to reflexive responses like:

• startle reflex
• Timing-based muscle activation

But in Power Slap:

• You must appear not to flinch
• You’re essentially forced into unnatural preparation

So someone unfamiliar with the rules might:

• Over-tense early (bad for shock absorption)
• Mis-time their brace

---

3) Does this mean TCMA is less effective than modern combat sports?​

In most tested environments, yes—modern combat sports tend to outperform.

Not because TCMA is “fake,” but because:

• Combat sports = alive training + resistance + competition
• TCMA (in many cases) = less consistent pressure testing

That gap shows up in:

• MMA
• Kickboxing
• Even niche events like Power Slap

---

4) About Zhao Honggang specifically​

Credit where it’s due—stepping into something like this takes real courage.

• Zhao Honggang tested his skill publicly
• That’s more than most practitioners of any style do

One performance in a niche event doesn’t define:

• His skill
• His system
• Or TCMA as a whole

---

Bottom line​

• Power generation: Both TCMA and boxing use the same physics
• Effectiveness: Comes from training method, not style label
• This result: Likely reflects experience and specificity, not “TCMA vs boxing” superiority

---

If you want, I can break down the actual slap mechanics (frame-by-frame style) and point out exactly where the power difference likely came from.

The curse of most kung fu, only looking for power generation and to marvel on it.
Sad, cause tongbeiquan hold such a nice method of harnessing true valid skill of sence of timing - listening, same as XYQ but more visibly but yet not many see and get it, its not really taught openly but its so in the open anyway.

 

[Tony Dismukes113 9]

Benny "The Jet" Urquidez fought Kong Fu Tak in 1981 in Hong Kong. This notable, often discussed "death match" or inter-style challenge occurred during the WKA's "Road to Hong Kong" event.

Kong Fu Tak (often billed as “Kung Fu Tak”) was a Hong Kong martial artist and stunt performer whose background was rooted primarily in traditional Chinese kung fu, rather than competitive kickboxing like his opponent.

His martial arts background:​

• Traditional Chinese Kung Fu– He trained in southern Chinese styles, with a strong emphasis on:
  • Hung Gar–type techniques (powerful stances, hand strikes)
  • Choy Li Fut influences (wide, swinging strikes and mobility)
• Forms (kata) and performance fighting – Like many Hong Kong film-era fighters, his training included choreographed combat and demonstration-style sparring.
• Limited full-contact competition experience – Unlike Benny Urquidez (“Benny the Jet”), Tak was not primarily a ring fighter, which showed in their bout.

Key contrast in that fight:​

• Kong Fu Tak → traditional stylist, more upright stance, less experience with modern ring tactics
• Benny Urquidez → full-contact kickboxing champion, blending karate, boxing, and practical ring strategy

Bottom line:​

Kong Fu Tak was a classically trained kung fu practitioner and film fighter, not a modern competitive kickboxer—so when he faced Urquidez, it was essentially traditional kung fu vs. full-contact kickboxing, with a big gap in real ring experience.

If you want, I can break down the actual fight and why it ended so quickly.

The fight between Kong Fu Tak and Benny Urquidez is a classic example of style vs. reality under pressure—and it ended very quickly because of a few key factors.

---

What actually happened (breakdown)​

1.​

• Kong Fu Tak came in with a traditional kung fu stance:
  • More upright
  • Hands lower and wider
  • Designed for forms and controlled exchanges
• Urquidez used a tight, modern fighting guard:
  • Hands high (boxing-style)
  • Balanced stance for kicking and punching
  • Constant movement and pressure

Right away, you can see Tak isn’t used to full-contact ring distance and timing.

---

2.​

• Urquidez immediately closed the distance
• He cut off space and forced Tak backward

This is crucial:
Traditional kung fu often assumes a different rhythm, while Urquidez fought like a professional ring tactician—controlling range and pace.

---

3.​

• Urquidez launched a fast combination
• Tak tried to respond but:
  • His guard wasn’t tight enough
  • His reactions weren’t conditioned for full-speed combinations

Urquidez landed clean, powerful strikes (punches and/or kicks depending on the version of the footage you’ve seen), overwhelming him almost instantly.

---

4.​

• Tak was quickly knocked down/overwhelmed
• The fight was stopped very early (often described as a near-instant stoppage)

---

Why it ended so fast​

1.​

• Urquidez: seasoned full-contact champion
• Tak: mostly traditional + performance-based fighting

This is the biggest factor.

---

2.​

• Urquidez trained with:
  • Full-speed sparring
  • Real impact conditioning
  • Ring strategy
• Tak’s training likely emphasized:
  • Forms
  • Controlled drills
  • Limited full-contact pressure

---

3.​

• Tak’s open guard left him exposed
• Urquidez exploited it immediately with tight, efficient striking

---

4.​

Getting hit full force, at speed, by a pro fighter is a completely different experience if you’re not used to it.
Tak looked unprepared for that intensity.

---

Big takeaway​

This fight is often cited to show:


If Kong Fu Tak had similar ring experience and conditioning, the fight likely would’ve looked very different.

---

If you want, I can compare this to other “traditional vs. full-contact” matchups (some had very different outcomes).

Nov 4, 2025

Zhao Honggang, a student of Tongbei influencer and self-proclaimed master Ge Wuyuan, decided to try his Tongbei skills on Power Slap. Yes, a Tongbei Kungfu guy answered the call to test themselves in a slapping competition! Let's see how this Tongbei guy does when taking on professional martial artists!

Ge Wuyuan (also known as Chen Kuo) is a prominent martial artist and a ninth-generation inheritor of Qijia Tongbeiquan, a branch of the traditional northern Chinese martial art Tongbeiquan. He gained international attention through the viral intersection of traditional kung fu and modern combat sports, specifically within the Power Slap community.

There are a few different claims mixed together in that argument, so it helps to separate them: power generation mechanics, ruleset/context, and training methods.

---

1) Is TCMA (like Tongbeiquan) better at generating power?​

Short answer: not inherently—both systems can generate high power, but they prioritize and train it differently.

• Tongbeiquan (TCMA)emphasizes:
  • Whole-body whipping mechanics (often described as “from the back” or “through the spine”)
  • Relaxation → sudden acceleration (a “snap” rather than constant tension)
  • Long-range striking and kinetic chaining
• Boxing (modern combat sport)emphasizes:
  • Ground-up force (feet → hips → torso → arm)
  • Tight kinetic efficiency under pressure
  • Repetition against resisting opponents

Biomechanically, both are using the same underlying principle:
kinetic chain.

So the idea that TCMA has special or superior power generation isn’t really supported. It’s more accurate to say:

• TCMA theoretically teaches good power mechanics
• Combat sports consistently pressure-test and refine them

---

2) Why did the boxer-looking competitor seem more effective?​

This is where context matters more than style.

A. Power Slap is a very specific skill​

The event itself—Power Slap—is NOT a fight. It rewards:

• One-shot impact delivery
• Ability to absorb impact without flinching
• Timing within strict rules

That’s very different from either:

• Sparring
• Self-defense
• Traditional forms practice

So success here doesn’t prove one system is better overall.

---

B. Training specificity beats theory​

Boxers (or combat sport athletes in general) typically:

• Hit pads and heavy bags thousands of times
• Spar against resistance
• Train under fatigue and pressure

That creates:

• Better timing
• Better impact conditioning
• Better delivery under stress

Many TCMA practitioners:

• Spend more time on forms, drills, or cooperative practice
• May not train full-force striking regularly

Result: even if the mechanics exist, they’re often less stress-tested.

---

C. The “no flinch” rule matters a lot​

The video makes a good point here.

In real striking:

• You don’t stay fully tensed
• You brace at the last moment

That’s basic impact mitigation and relates to reflexive responses like:

• startle reflex
• Timing-based muscle activation

But in Power Slap:

• You must appear not to flinch
• You’re essentially forced into unnatural preparation

So someone unfamiliar with the rules might:

• Over-tense early (bad for shock absorption)
• Mis-time their brace

---

3) Does this mean TCMA is less effective than modern combat sports?​

In most tested environments, yes—modern combat sports tend to outperform.

Not because TCMA is “fake,” but because:

• Combat sports = alive training + resistance + competition
• TCMA (in many cases) = less consistent pressure testing

That gap shows up in:

• MMA
• Kickboxing
• Even niche events like Power Slap

---

4) About Zhao Honggang specifically​

Credit where it’s due—stepping into something like this takes real courage.

• Zhao Honggang tested his skill publicly
• That’s more than most practitioners of any style do

One performance in a niche event doesn’t define:

• His skill
• His system
• Or TCMA as a whole

---

Bottom line​

• Power generation: Both TCMA and boxing use the same physics
• Effectiveness: Comes from training method, not style label
• This result: Likely reflects experience and specificity, not “TCMA vs boxing” superiority

---

If you want, I can break down the actual slap mechanics (frame-by-frame style) and point out exactly where the power difference likely came from.

Marvin8, is there a reason you’re starting to add extensive AI-written essays to your posts? We don’t have a rule against it at this point, but personally I’m more interested in having a conversation with people than with programs.

 

[skribs114 134]

but personally I’m more interested in having a conversation with people than with programs.

I don't know...sometimes I have a question I used to ask on this forum, but now I'll go to Gemini instead. Unlike most people, Gemini's answers are on topic and aren't filtered through the anecdotes its experienced.

With that said, if I want to talk to Gemini, I will talk to Gemini. I'd rather not use another forum poster as a middleman. What this forum member is producing can be a great format for a newsletter (I use Gemini to help write a weekly newsletter on LinkedIn), but isn't great for conversation.

 

[Appledog51 4]

I stayed up late to watch a 2023 WKF tournament final on TV, and even later to post this. There was plenty of action, but it was the same action over and over. Three different matches, six "fighters", each with three minutes of sparring action. The only scoring (or even executed) techniques were lead roundhouse kicks and reverse punches - that's it, just two techniques!

All six used the same stance: Very deep (so vulnerable to sweeps, but I guess that's not legal now) facing sideways with constant bouncing. Very little in the way of tactics, just quick hops in and a scoring attempt with one of the two moves I mentioned. Zero lateral movement. Multidimensional it was not. A formal warning was given to one fighter for "excessive" contact to the face with a padded hand - no blood or even head snapping back.

Gi's had manufacturer's name prominently displayed in large letters, and at least one had a sponsor's name/logo as well.

IMO, all of these finalists would get creamed in a match with a competent fighter from the 60's or 70's. It's way past my bedtime now, but I had to vent so I can get to sleep. It may have been the WKF, but I say WTF!

The purpose of point sparring is as old as time, it's why kungfu came up with choreographed 2 man sets and exercises like push hands. You need to train but you don't want to injure your opponent. You want to fortify the art but not completely neuter it. You want to sportify to promote the art among the population but you don't want just anyone to join and then give up six months later. These are real issues faced by the heads of lineage, the creators of styles, the coaches of a nation.

In fact, many people would be more than happy with some subset of the arts which was applicable in self-defense. Well, let's just say that it is not an easy problem to solve, some arts have solved it, most have not. But all solutions involve a subset of whatever a complete art would look like.

From what I hear the problem is still being worked on. But I do think we are devolving slowly over time.

 

[skribs114 134]

The purpose of point sparring is as old as time, it's why kungfu came up with choreographed 2 man sets and exercises like push hands. You need to train but you don't want to injure your opponent. You want to fortify the art but not completely neuter it. You want to sportify to promote the art among the population but you don't want just anyone to join and then give up six months later. These are real issues faced by the heads of lineage, the creators of styles, the coaches of a nation.

In fact, many people would be more than happy with some subset of the arts which was applicable in self-defense. Well, let's just say that it is not an easy problem to solve, some arts have solved it, most have not. But all solutions involve a subset of whatever a complete art would look like.

From what I hear the problem is still being worked on. But I do think we are devolving slowly over time.

It's a very real problem.

• If you focus on self-defense, you focus on situations and techniques that may not work well in sparring, such as those dangerous to use or those based on asymmetrical goals.
• If you focus on sparring, you risk the sport focusing exclusively on a controlled environment. That environment may be more controlled (i.e. boxing or Taekwondo) or less controlled (MMA), but it is still a controlled environment in which self-defense situations and the most devastating techniques or targets are off limits.
• You may also wish to focus on other things, such as wellness, mindfulness, or artistic expression, which is yet another set of goals.
• The more you focus on any one thing, the less you benefit from the other options.
• The more you generalize the art, the less you get out of the primary focus. This is especially true in my experience with Taekwondo in which the self-defense, sparring, and artistic versions of the techniques are taught in the same class, without much discussion on when each version applies. Especially if you're doing the same technique (i.e. roundhouse kick) in each of those scenarios.

I don't think there's a real answer to the question. The more you sporterize an art, the more opportunity you give people to have goals within the art, but the less you focus on what works in the real world. If you shift your focus to self-defense, focusing on situational simulations will generally lead to lower-fidelity training. (For example, we're not going to actually gouge each other's eyes out in sparring).

It's kind of like trying to decide between a small coupe and a large pickup truck. If you need to haul stuff, the pickup is great. But dang if they aren't expensive to own and chug gas like a BJJ professor drinking white Monster energy drinks. But if you get a small coupe because it's cheaper and much more fuel efficient, good luck moving that bedroom set.

 

[philwhite44 1]

Benny's book is quite good. He talks quite a bit about point fighting and how he preferred kickboxing/full contact because he didn't like leaving it up to the reffs. You gotta love his story about fighting Muay Thai.

 

[marvin8]

Marvin8, is there a reason you’re starting to add extensive AI-written essays to your posts? We don’t have a rule against it at this point, but personally I’m more interested in having a conversation with people than with programs.

Yes—just using it to help organize and clarify what I’ve already discussed in prior posts. I’m open to discussing any part of it further.

 

[windwalker099115 145]

I don't think there's a real answer to the question. The more you sporterize an art, the more opportunity you give people to have goals within the art, but the less you focus on what works in the real world. If you shift your focus to self-defense, focusing on situational simulations will generally lead to lower-fidelity training. (For example, we're not going to actually gouge each other's eyes out in sparring).

Not to mention, what works in the real world today is very different from when these arts were first developed and became known. Over time, they’ve been shaped — and often marketed — into forms that reflect what the market supports, not necessarily what they were originally intended for.

Taiji is a good example of this process. As family styles moved away from the kind of competitive or combative environments often referenced in the stories of their founders, emphasis shifted toward what was originally a training method — push hands.

For many, the focus has since become push hands competition itself.
In doing so, the skill set can become highly specialized, no longer reflecting the theory the art was based on, and less functional relative to its

 

[windwalker099115 145]

and less functional relative to its

Historical foundations.

 

[HighKick]

I have quite a lot of sparring tape outside my WT Olympic run, but sadly, I have very little of it. The circuit took me far from home often and usually, it was just me and my coach who Hated video. Old school Korean.

 

[Same Trick60 11]

Has anyone here sparred(point fighting style) against some of the top point fighters of today ? I mean facing on the mat one might see differently

 

[jks919987 11]

Benny "The Jet" Urquidez fought Kong Fu Tak in 1981 in Hong Kong. This notable, often discussed "death match" or inter-style challenge occurred during the WKA's "Road to Hong Kong" event.

Kong Fu Tak (often billed as “Kung Fu Tak”) was a Hong Kong martial artist and stunt performer whose background was rooted primarily in traditional Chinese kung fu, rather than competitive kickboxing like his opponent.

His martial arts background:​

• Traditional Chinese Kung Fu– He trained in southern Chinese styles, with a strong emphasis on:
  • Hung Gar–type techniques (powerful stances, hand strikes)
  • Choy Li Fut influences (wide, swinging strikes and mobility)
• Forms (kata) and performance fighting – Like many Hong Kong film-era fighters, his training included choreographed combat and demonstration-style sparring.
• Limited full-contact competition experience – Unlike Benny Urquidez (“Benny the Jet”), Tak was not primarily a ring fighter, which showed in their bout.

Key contrast in that fight:​

• Kong Fu Tak → traditional stylist, more upright stance, less experience with modern ring tactics
• Benny Urquidez → full-contact kickboxing champion, blending karate, boxing, and practical ring strategy

Bottom line:​

Kong Fu Tak was a classically trained kung fu practitioner and film fighter, not a modern competitive kickboxer—so when he faced Urquidez, it was essentially traditional kung fu vs. full-contact kickboxing, with a big gap in real ring experience.

If you want, I can break down the actual fight and why it ended so quickly.

The fight between Kong Fu Tak and Benny Urquidez is a classic example of style vs. reality under pressure—and it ended very quickly because of a few key factors.

---

What actually happened (breakdown)​

1.​

• Kong Fu Tak came in with a traditional kung fu stance:
  • More upright
  • Hands lower and wider
  • Designed for forms and controlled exchanges
• Urquidez used a tight, modern fighting guard:
  • Hands high (boxing-style)
  • Balanced stance for kicking and punching
  • Constant movement and pressure

Right away, you can see Tak isn’t used to full-contact ring distance and timing.

---

2.​

• Urquidez immediately closed the distance
• He cut off space and forced Tak backward

This is crucial:
Traditional kung fu often assumes a different rhythm, while Urquidez fought like a professional ring tactician—controlling range and pace.

---

3.​

• Urquidez launched a fast combination
• Tak tried to respond but:
  • His guard wasn’t tight enough
  • His reactions weren’t conditioned for full-speed combinations

Urquidez landed clean, powerful strikes (punches and/or kicks depending on the version of the footage you’ve seen), overwhelming him almost instantly.

---

4.​

• Tak was quickly knocked down/overwhelmed
• The fight was stopped very early (often described as a near-instant stoppage)

---

Why it ended so fast​

1.​

• Urquidez: seasoned full-contact champion
• Tak: mostly traditional + performance-based fighting

This is the biggest factor.

---

2.​

• Urquidez trained with:
  • Full-speed sparring
  • Real impact conditioning
  • Ring strategy
• Tak’s training likely emphasized:
  • Forms
  • Controlled drills
  • Limited full-contact pressure

---

3.​

• Tak’s open guard left him exposed
• Urquidez exploited it immediately with tight, efficient striking

---

4.​

Getting hit full force, at speed, by a pro fighter is a completely different experience if you’re not used to it.
Tak looked unprepared for that intensity.

---

Big takeaway​

This fight is often cited to show:


If Kong Fu Tak had similar ring experience and conditioning, the fight likely would’ve looked very different.

---

If you want, I can compare this to other “traditional vs. full-contact” matchups (some had very different outcomes).

I'd be really curious to here your own thoughts, rather than copy and paste out of an AI chat. (The formating is a bit of a giveaway.)

 

[skribs114 134]

Has anyone here sparred(point fighting style) against some of the top point fighters of today ? I mean facing on the mat one might see differently

No, but I've seen the opposite. Moderately trained point fighters against those brand new to the sport. Often those brand new are intimidated even by the softer level of contact in point fighting and are nervous or even scared of getting hit. Or hitting someone else.

I'm mainly talking about kids in this case, but it does happen with adults too. Exposure to sparring in a controlled environment usually helps them overcome this.

 

[Same Trick60 11]

No, but I've seen the opposite. Moderately trained point fighters against those brand new to the sport. Often those brand new are intimidated even by the softer level of contact in point fighting and are nervous or even scared of getting hit. Or hitting someone else.

I'm mainly talking about kids in this case, but it does happen with adults too. Exposure to sparring in a controlled environment usually helps them overcome this.

Yes but I asked if anyone has squared off with some of the top point fighters of today, because I guess it’s them the op write about seeing