Competed in open karate point sparring tournament today

[philwhite44 1]

Its been awhile since I competed last (probably 7-8 years). Today I competed in an open state tournament just to scratch the competition itch. Well apparently in this tournament, mens black belt sparring judges score no touch points... Incoming details and rant.

To start the match out I knocked back my first opponent with a super clean jump spin side kick and he got points for a phantom strike. It just left a sour taste in my mouth. Another call they just stopped the action for no reason and gave my opponent 2 points. I was baffled as there was no strike thrown. I asked for an explaination and I got an IDK from the ref. There were tons of calls where the judges scored 1 vs 2. Like not knowing if a kick or punch was thrown. I ended up ditching kicks for punches as they wouldn't score anything I cleanly landed. I made up 3 points just swatting his front hand down and punching him in the face but it was too late. It just sucks when you feel like you performed much better than your competition and it gets taken away due to bad rules and calls.

Is point fighting dead or is this the new norm. I used to compete and judge NASKA tournaments and while not perfect we required clean hits. I know its been a few years but I remember most of the judges back then were better than this.

 

[HighKick]

Its been awhile since I competed last (probably 7-8 years). Today I competed in an open state tournament just to scratch the competition itch. Well apparently in this tournament, mens black belt sparring judges score no touch points... Incoming details and rant.

To start the match out I knocked back my first opponent with a super clean jump spin side kick and he got points for a phantom strike. It just left a sour taste in my mouth. Another call they just stopped the action for no reason and gave my opponent 2 points. I was baffled as there was no strike thrown. I asked for an explaination and I got an IDK from the ref. There were tons of calls where the judges scored 1 vs 2. Like not knowing if a kick or punch was thrown. I ended up ditching kicks for punches as they wouldn't score anything I cleanly landed. I made up 3 points just swatting his front hand down and punching him in the face but it was too late. It just sucks when you feel like you performed much better than your competition and it gets taken away due to bad rules and calls.

Is point fighting dead or is this the new norm. I used to compete and judge NASKA tournaments and while not perfect we required clean hits. I know its been a few years but I remember most of the judges back then were better than this.

Good on ya for getting back on the mat!!! Don't be discouraged.
I can't answer your question, but did you understand the rules before going into the tournament? We you a solo competitor? I do generally feel they have a harder row to hoe.
I have had guys go it alone and either I do my best to reach out to the organizers or have them go out of their way to make some introductions.
Yes, it matters whether it 'feels' like it should or not. A good example is if/when you have seen a 'wild' lone gun at a tournament. The can screw things up for everyone that day. Happened more than you may think back in the day. One of the 'hazards' with opens.

 

[philwhite44 1]

Good on ya for getting back on the mat!!! Don't be discouraged.
I can't answer your question, but did you understand the rules before going into the tournament? We you a solo competitor? I do generally feel they have a harder row to hoe.
I have had guys go it alone and either I do my best to reach out to the organizers or have them go out of their way to make some introductions.
Yes, it matters whether it 'feels' like it should or not. A good example is if/when you have seen a 'wild' lone gun at a tournament. The can screw things up for everyone that day. Happened more than you may think back in the day. One of the 'hazards' with opens.

You may be right on the rules. The published ruleset was a bit vague and I did come in as a solo competior. My division ended up being the first on the mats so I wasn't able to see anyone else compete so I was at a disadvantage. And the center judge did not explain the rules but instead rushed us to start. I let him know beforehand that I hadn't competed in while and I did ask for clarification on contact and was kind of brushed aside.

When I reffed I always gave exceedingly clear instructions before starting. Most tournaments that I've competed in have done the same.

 

[HighKick]

You may be right on the rules. The published ruleset was a bit vague and I did come in as a solo competior. My division ended up being the first on the mats so I wasn't able to see anyone else compete so I was at a disadvantage. And the center judge did not explain the rules but instead rushed us to start. I let him know beforehand that I hadn't competed in while and I did ask for clarification on contact and was kind of brushed aside.

When I reffed I always gave exceedingly clear instructions before starting. Most tournaments that I've competed in have done the same.

Was there a meeting before the tournament? This is our norm to expedite things and reduce the load on refs.

Still, congrats on showing up.

 

[philwhite44 1]

Nope. I mean not everything was awful. It was still good going out and fighting. I think my feelings were mixed because I know I did much better than what was reflected on the score and the rules and bad reffing took that away.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf115 145]

Was this run by a specific dojo/was the competitor from that dojo? Not intentionally, but if a ref knows how someone fights it becomes a lot easier to see what they were doing/trying to do, and end up giving them points easier than they should.

 

[jks919986 11]

One of the most frustrating things I found about "open" tournaments was that they often weren't really so open... Often a few key clubs or programs in the area tended to do really well (especially if they were a sponsoring school, I note cynically). Some of this is because they know the expectations -- what is a hit, what isn't, how long a kata/form should be, and all that stuff. I've seen black belt rules meetings do a great job demonstrating and explaining, but I've also seen plenty where there isn't one or it's really vague about what is expected. Even with a meeting and ideal explanation -- it still relies on the judges (who may be trying to prep for their own events or watch their own students...) to actually and fairly hold the same standards. A judge may simply go by the standards their own school uses, whatever is said.

I used tournaments as a chance for my students to test their lessons under a different sort of pressure -- competition, and against people they don't train with all the time. I defined a "win" as doing the lesson, not whether they brought home a trophy. I stopped going to them as they prices got higher, and too many students were going out on a single elimination without ever really getting a chance to try their lesson because the opponents knew the game better...

Which leads me to my last point. If it's something you want to do -- start watching the tournaments. See what's scoring and what's not, and figure out how to succeed in the rule sets.

 

[philwhite44 1]

I used tournaments as a chance for my students to test their lessons under a different sort of pressure -- competition, and against people they don't train with all the time. I defined a "win" as doing the lesson, not whether they brought home a trophy. I stopped going to them as they prices got higher, and too many students were going out on a single elimination without ever really getting a chance to try their lesson because the opponents knew the game better...

I think this is the right approach and thought pattern. I'm kind of living in the middle of nowhere so my chances to spar other is limited so it was a good opportunity. When you have the feeling that in a real fight it would have gone your way all day, it just makes you cringe when you see the score cards. And I was outweighed by atleast 50 lbs and several inches by my competition. Sadly this is usually the case.

Was this run by a specific dojo/was the competitor from that dojo? Not intentionally, but if a ref knows how someone fights it becomes a lot easier to see what they were doing/trying to do, and end up giving them points easier than they should.

It did seem this way as there were a majority of similar uniforms at the event and it looked like the three other competitors in my division knew the judge. I wouldn't want to make a claim like that though unless I knew for sure. I know where your coming from. When I judged the Diamond Nationals in MN, my school was the major sponsor so I can see where this could come into effect. I wouldn't say our judges were biased however I highly think many of them had little knowledge outside their own system so it was more not knowing vs bias. It was always more apparent in forms.

Also I usually fight in a standard (left side in front) stance and I was unfortunately on the judges left so my body was in the center judges viewing angle so it made it easier to call points against me. I probably should have reverse the angle or faught southpaw after seeing the bad calls although the corners probably would have been confused when scoring. The center judge did not move with the action to follow the fight. The judges table also did not clearly display scores and the center never referenced the score during the match.

Some of the fault of the situation is obviously mine. I've done a number of tournaments and I know when I was beat and this was not the case. When I was in my late 30s I fought the number one point fighter in the US. It was funny because I trained with him when he was a kid. It was not even close but he fought fair.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf115 145]

Something my own post and high kicks reminded me of - When I was a kid my school did a yearly trip to a "sister school" for their open tournament. Outside of our two schools, there were a lot of other schools in the area that participated. We didn't know any of the judges, but still always did very well as a school.

A deciding factor is that the month or so before the tournament our classes were focused on the tournament (for those participating). So we learned point sparring in the way they wanted, went over the things that would impress that particular school in terms of strikes and forms, things like that. The amount of time spent prepping for it, and some insider knowledge, definitely contributed to how well certain participants did compared to those from outside the system.