Some thoughts about discussing the martial arts

[Tez3]

Yup, in a nutshell. Speaking for myself, there are some arts out there, that I am just not fond of, and highly doubt I ever will be. So much to the point, that if "X" art was THE only art left to train in, I'd probably quit training. However, I don't, or at least try not to run around, and bash "X" art. Hey, if someone wants to train in it, rock on! LOL!

There's some arts I'd like to have tried like Capoeira, I'm not built for it and I don't have rhythm lol but it would have been fun I think. I've no idea whether it's any good for SD or fighting, never had a chance to study it.
I think the problem would be if I started bashing Capoeira from that basis of ignorance, that's when arguments happen because quite rightly a Capoeira stylist would want to take issue with what I said. Always wanted to try Kendo too, here it's expensive and it's a bit far away from where I am. Is there an old person's style anywhere

 

[Tez3]

If the posts were simply 'your training style sucks, my way is best' it would be easier to understand but when the posts are 'no you don't train that' it's harder to find a common ground for discussion.

 

[Steve]

I think the problems are that we're all focused on how bad everyone else is at writing posts, and don't consider our own contributions to the ongoing arguments. A little more introspection and a lot less finger pointing would do us all some good, I think. That includes me.

It's certainly not all Hanzou, Tez, Ballen, Drop Bear or K-man, either. We all snipe and get petty and perpetuate the arguments. Being a little more accountable for our own words, and presuming good intent when someone doesn't understand something will really help.

 

[Cirdan]

Thanks for the dislike Steve, you were saying what about finger pointing?

Anyway I doubt anyone here is getting wound up about anyone disagreeing or having different point of view. As has been pointed out there is an incredible variety in the arts. Pure falsehoods however deserves to be pointed out and corrected.

 

[Tez3]

Thanks for the dislike Steve, you were saying what about finger pointing?

Anyway I doubt anyone here is getting wound up about anyone disagreeing or having different point of view. As has been pointed out there is an incredible variety in the arts. Pure falsehoods however deserves to be pointed out and corrected.

Tis true, we've all seen the 'my style is best' arguments, they tend to descend into a school child spat, what we've had recently is a different kettle of fish, the 'no you don't do that' and the 'your style doesn't do that' argument. It's bound to have people feeling exasperated because when they know they are doing something it's difficult to understand why someone would say they aren't.

 

[Steve]

Thanks for the dislike Steve, you were saying what about finger pointing?

Anyway I doubt anyone here is getting wound up about anyone disagreeing or having different point of view. As has been pointed out there is an incredible variety in the arts. Pure falsehoods however deserves to be pointed out and corrected.

I disliked your post. But, it doesn't mean I dislike you.

Apparently, I wasn't clear. My post had nothing to do with finger pointing. My opinion is that when you don't get the response you were expecting, rather than attack the messenger, maybe ask yourself a few questions:

• Do I really understand the other person's post?
• Is there any merit to his position?
• Was I as clear as I intended?
• Am I being a jerk?

Really, there are a gazillion good questions to ask yourself, provided the key pronouns being used are "I" or "me."

 

[Cirdan]

I disliked your post. But, it doesn't mean I dislike you.

Apparently, I wasn't clear. My post had nothing to do with finger pointing. My opinion is that when you don't get the response you were expecting, rather than attack the messenger, maybe ask yourself a few questions:

• Do I really understand the other person's post?
• Is there any merit to his position?
• Was I as clear as I intended?
• Am I being a jerk?

Really, there are a gazillion good questions to ask yourself, provided the key pronouns being used are "I" or "me."

Wrong your post definately had a lot to do with finger pointing. Read it again and apply the words "I" and "me" as well as some of that good old introspection.

 

[Cirdan]

Tis true, we've all seen the 'my style is best' arguments, they tend to descend into a school child spat, what we've had recently is a different kettle of fish, the 'no you don't do that' and the 'your style doesn't do that' argument. It's bound to have people feeling exasperated because when they know they are doing something it's difficult to understand why someone would say they aren't.

It is very easy to deny something when it doesn`t fit into one`s little neat view of the world. Taking off the blinders is part of what you have to grow as a martial artist methinks.

 

[ballen0351]

I disliked your post. But, it doesn't mean I dislike you.

Apparently, I wasn't clear. My post had nothing to do with finger pointing. My opinion is that when you don't get the response you were expecting, rather than attack the messenger, maybe ask yourself a few questions:

• Do I really understand the other person's post?
• Is there any merit to his position?
• Was I as clear as I intended?
• Am I being a jerk?

Really, there are a gazillion good questions to ask yourself, provided the key pronouns being used are "I" or "me."

Sometimes however people are just wrong. No amount of asking yourself question can change that

 

[tshadowchaser]

We must all remember that our experiences in the arts are different and have different lengths of time involved. Our time of entering the arts is also different. Thereby what our perception will be different depending on these facts.
Now we all sometimes make statements that are incorrect and it is only human for someone to try to explain our mistakes but we should understand that sometimes no one wins and argument or is able to change another point of view.

 

[ballen0351]

We must all remember that our experiences in the arts are different and have different lengths of time involved. Our time of entering the arts is also different. Thereby what our perception will be different depending on these facts.
Now we all sometimes make statements that are incorrect and it is only human for someone to try to explain our mistakes but we should understand that sometimes no one wins and argument or is able to change another point of view.

I agree you cant change someones opinion. When someone is just factually wrong and refuses to acknowledge is where we run into problems.

 

[Steve]

Wrong your post definately had a lot to do with finger pointing. Read it again and apply the words "I" and "me" as well as some of that good old introspection.

I clicked the "dislike" button on your post, because I dislike it. I tried to explain why, but I'm not sure I understand what makes you think I am finger pointing. Could you help me understand how I was finger pointing? I don't see it.

Sometimes however people are just wrong. No amount of asking yourself question can change that

Of course, you're right. I would say, though, that the discussions we have here are on topics that are nuanced. It's entirely possible for two people to be saying contradictory things and both be right. Think about the parable of the blind men and the elephant.

 

[elder999]

My style is best.

Best for me, though, and it's my style-a suit fashioned from a variety of cloths:Judo, Miyama ryu jujutsu, Yoshinkan Aikido, Kyokushin karate, Sosuishitsu Ryu jujutsu, western boxing, Wing Chun, JKD, some sort of kali I'm just not going to mention (think of that as the suit's lining) and Muay Thai, Tae Kwon Do , Hapkido , a smattering of Kenpo (with dan grades signed by no less than John McSweeney, thank you!)and Brazilian Zhoozheetsoo ...maybe a few other things, and maybe not that last one so much (it's Basically Just Judo ) but those are the basics. It won't fit you-it's tailor made for me-the famous congenital klutz, and it suits me just fine

If people come to me for lessons,I tell them: we're making their suit, with what meager cloth I'm authorized to provide them.

And if that seems like "a lot," start martial arts when you're 8, formal lessons when you're 11, and just keep going-move around some so you have to change styles a few times, meet friends in other martial arts who want to share, and then get to be 54, and see where you are, 43 years later.....:lfao:-still can't believe I made 3rd dan at anything, never mind anything else.....(and these smileys still suck)

Arguments about which style is best, or which training methods are best, are rather silly-what's best for you, is best for you-people managed to learn and use karate, jujutsu, myriad forms of gung fu and weapons of all kinds, without "fighting" anyone until, well, they fought someone, in the only kind of fight that really matters, very often: the sort where the winner walks away drenched with the loser's blood. Discussions about what we see in videos or photographs-especially photographs-are equally silly and pointless-all too often, we don't know what else was going on, though some videos can be obviously good.....or obviously bad. People also study martial arts for a variety of different reasons: an aesthetic might appeal- I actually know someone who achieved dan grading in aikido because they wanted to wear a hakama!

 

[Steve]

It is very easy to deny something when it doesn`t fit into one`s little neat view of the world. Taking off the blinders is part of what you have to grow as a martial artist methinks.

I completely agree. Where I think we (humans) often fail is we apply a standard to others we ourselves cannot sustain. We judge others by what they do say (or write) and we judge ourselves by what we meant to say.

 

[Tez3]

I agree you cant change someones opinion. When someone is just factually wrong and refuses to acknowledge is where we run into problems.

This is true also, what we keep running into is something we can't adjust to. We can understand another's point of view re training and style, we can say 'yes I can see you do that but we do this', we can discuss much and agree to differ. Where it all goes pear shaped is when a poster refuses categorically to accept that we do something the way we do it. We could well be wrong in the way we do techniques, we may do it differently, we may be mistaken in why we do it, it may not work in the way we want it to, all good areas for discussion BUT we cannot discuss anything when the poster just says 'no you don't do it'. There is no room for discussion if someone flatly refuses to believe you do what you do. This is leading to frustration, combined with the constant badgering to 'prove it' is destroying the chances of having a discussion.
It's not a case of the majority of us not understanding, we read the posts and consider how to reply, we do so explaining what we do and our thinking behind it. When that's not accepted we explain again, perhaps from a different angle, perhaps someone will add more information, another a different experience and still it's all of who are 'wrong'. I think I can safely say that many of us feel we are being played with, that our genuine wish to communicate is being met with a wish for mischief for want of a better word.
It's not a case of one's right the other wrong but more of a case of cat and mouse, the cat is trying to see how far it can push the mice.
I could be wrong, I often am but this is certainly what it feels like.

 

[ballen0351]

I would say, though, that the discussions we have here are on topics that are nuanced. It's entirely possible for two people to be saying contradictory things and both be right. Think about the parable of the blind men and the elephant.

I agree when the discussion is opinion based. But when people made definitive statement like "Karate has no throws/Grappling" Then 10 people with all different backgrounds in several styles of Karate say "no thats not true I do throws in my style." Then your told no you dont, or well your throws suck so they dont count. Thats where the issues start. You can only politely disagree with someone so many times before it just gets silly then you cant tell if the guy really doesn't get it or is just trolling. Then you look at the body of work and you see the same nonsense in every section of the forum , karate, TKD, Hapkido, MMA, Judo, General thats when you lean more towards trolling then trying to learn. Like when you post about BJJ I respect your knowledge on the topic because its much greater then mine. If I said Steve you have no arm bars in BJJ and you said well yes we do then Ill take that at face value. Others dont give that same respect

 

[ballen0351]

I completely agree. Where I think we (humans) often fail is we apply a standard to others we ourselves cannot sustain. We judge others by what they do say (or write) and we judge ourselves by what we meant to say.

On a written form of communication what other way can we judge people?

 

[Hanzou]

I agree when the discussion is opinion based. But when people made definitive statement like "Karate has no throws/Grappling" Then 10 people with all different backgrounds in several styles of Karate say "no thats not true I do throws in my style." Then your told no you dont, or well your throws suck so they dont count. Thats where the issues start. You can only politely disagree with someone so many times before it just gets silly then you cant tell if the guy really doesn't get it or is just trolling. Then you look at the body of work and you see the same nonsense in every section of the forum , karate, TKD, Hapkido, MMA, Judo, General thats when you lean more towards trolling then trying to learn. Like when you post about BJJ I respect your knowledge on the topic because its much greater then mine. If I said Steve you have no arm bars in BJJ and you said well yes we do then Ill take that at face value. Others dont give that same respect

What's amusing about the above is that I never said that Karate had "no throws or grappling".

You and others read what you wanted to read and went from there, and continue to spread that mistruth into another discussion. Hence my earlier point.

However if I'm wrong, please find the post in the previous discussion where I "definitively" said that karate had no throws or grappling. Don't worry, I'll wait.

 

[Steve]

On a written form of communication what other way can we judge people?

Rather than judge, couldn't we ask clarifying questions? Cut people some slack and try to understand what they meant, even if it's not exactly what they said. I can think of a recent example of a new poster who wrote something and was really taken to task. In spite of his efforts to explain what he meant, he was vilified for one poorly worded post. There should be room for someone to say, "Yeah, that wasn't what I meant. Let me try again."

Maybe more importantly, where we run into some unintended conflict, I'm suggesting that we could try to look at our own posts from the outside in, to see if they actually say what we meant.

Don't get me wrong. Misunderstandings are bound to occur. But aren't we talking about how to have more productive conversations? I'm suggesting that a little more effort trying to understand what people intend will help. Presume good intent. Ask more questions. And entertain the possibility that "we" aren't 100% right and "they" aren't 100% wrong.

 

[Tez3]

On a written form of communication what other way can we judge people?

Especially when something in said in plain unambiguous English. Often people will write something they think is good but when they realise it is plain wrong such as ' you should strike women' they back peddle and say 'oh I didn't mean to say that' even when they have already said they know it sounds wrong. Well sorry but it is plain wrong, no doubts about it, plain English and written with the rider that they know it sounds bad. No wiggle room I'm afraid.
Anyway that's digressing. The door is shut on any discussion or even debate when it's become clear that someone is deliberately being provocative so that all the effort in the world to be fair minded and respect opinions just gets you jeered at.