Some thoughts about discussing the martial arts

[K-man]

As one of those guilty of getting heavily involved I guess it boils down to a sense of fairness and respect.

Like Tony, there are many training systems that I would leave alone for one reason or another. I would hesitate to call them sub-optimal because that doesn't take into account the reason a person is training that system. I'll use Tai Chi as an example. I used to think Tai Chi was a bit of a wank. Good for your health etc but not a 'real' martial art. Over the years I've met several serious martial artists practising Tai Chi and they have changed my understanding. I doubt I will ever practise it myself but horses for courses.

Then you have a martial art that you have actually trained. Within those four walls you may know everything about that system as it is taught in that environment. But do you really know that system? Years ago I was certainly guilty of that. I thought I knew pretty much all there was to know about Goju. Now I am being exposed to a world I never knew existed. I am sure that the same applies to every other karate style out there. One advantage of a forum like MT is that you can explore some of those things with others. Where that comes unstuck is when a closed minded person who had little understanding steps in as an expert and destroys the whole discussion.

I have learned a lot from people here. I have watched interesting videos and been able to take bits and pieces away to try for myself. Long may that continue. Where someone genuinely is an expert it is nice to be able to ask them about the technical aspects of such a technique. I know from Aikido there are no techniques that don't work. The secret is to be able to make them work for you. Sometimes that can take years of dedicated practise. Then someone comes along who did Aikido for a short time and claims definitively that such and such a technique doesn't work. So what do you do? I believe this to be a respected forum. If you allow something that is wrong to be put out there unchallenged it becomes fact. But in some cases it gets even worse when an individual continues to denigrate an entire system as worthless. That may discourage someone who may have benefitted considerably from a particular martial art from even trying it.

I don't really know the answer as so much is subjective, but I do think the mods could redirect some of these discussions before they get to the stage of being locked.

 

[Steve]

Especially when something in said in plain unambiguous English. Often people will write something they think is good but when they realise it is plain wrong such as ' you should strike women' they back peddle and say 'oh I didn't mean to say that' even when they have already said they know it sounds wrong. Well sorry but it is plain wrong, no doubts about it, plain English and written with the rider that they know it sounds bad. No wiggle room I'm afraid.
Anyway that's digressing. The door is shut on any discussion or even debate when it's become clear that someone is deliberately being provocative so that all the effort in the world to be fair minded and respect opinions just gets you jeered at.

I think this is a perfect example. The first post was pretty iffy: tonyjw86 said, " It sounds bad but making a women mad by striking her really helps her come out of her shell and use some force." Yikes. Pretty inflammatory.

However, a few days later, he clarified and it turns out, he was saying something that most of us, including you, Tez, have endorsed: using realistic pressure and treating training partners like an equal.

Whew boy I didn't mean to offend anyone. I see everyones point here. To clarify striking might not have been the best term maybe something more realistic pressure. Close to what you would with a male partner for the females advantage.

My original post was taken a bit out of context. With this I was just trying to clarify that what I meant was women are at a disadvantage in class when not treated like and equal.

 

[elder999]

What's amusing about the above is that I never said that Karate had "no throws or grappling".

You and others read what you wanted to read and went from there, and continue to spread that mistruth into another discussion. Hence my earlier point.

However if I'm wrong, please find the post in the previous discussion where I "definitively" said that karate had no throws or grappling. Don't worry, I'll wait.

How important is fighting in the Martial Arts?

Interesting that I pointed out the dearth of grappling in Karate, and I was called ignorant for it.

Um, I'm not calling anyone a liar. I'm simply curious and would like more information about a rarity. If someone said they had pictures of Bigfoot wouldn't you like to see them?

I disagree. I'm certainly open to other people's perspectives, however if you're going to tell me that throws are widely taught in Shotokan karate, I simply disagree with that argument. To compound this, I can pull up various vids of Karate or TKD exponents free sparring, and none of them are performing any throws or takedowns whatsoever.

]I[/SIZE] have, and I've never found it. My experience with grappling karatekas is that their grappling skills are extremely low unless they've cross-trained. I know one instructor who mixes Judo with Isshin-Ryu, and he wrestled in HS, so his students are very good grapplers. However they are the exceptions.Which I always find K-Man's claims of pure Karate grappling so interesting.

 

[Hanzou]

How important is fighting in the Martial Arts?

You do understand that there's a difference between lack,( scarcity, rarity), and nonexistence correct?

You also understand that there's a difference between "my experience" and "all" right?

Just making sure.

 

[K-man]

There's some arts I'd like to have tried like Capoeira, I'm not built for it and I don't have rhythm lol but it would have been fun I think. I've no idea whether it's any good for SD or fighting, never had a chance to study it.
I think the problem would be if I started bashing Capoeira from that basis of ignorance, that's when arguments happen because quite rightly a Capoeira stylist would want to take issue with what I said. Always wanted to try Kendo too, here it's expensive and it's a bit far away from where I am. Is there an old person's style anywhere

I think Tez has inadvertently touched on an important aspect here when she threw in the comment on age. When you are twenty five, healthy fit and filled with testosterone then something like MMA has huge appeal. Once you're on the wrong side of 50 the body can't do what it once could and it doesn't get any easier as you creep past 60. To say to a person of that age that unless they get in the cage they don't know that their training sucks is not overly helpful. I have had guys in their 60s take up martial arts for the first time. If they came here and joined in some of the recent discussions I reckon far from being encouraged they would probably be convinced they were wasting their time.

A bit of consideration would go a long way towards making this a better place.

 

[Steve]

A bit of consideration would go a long way towards making this a better place.

Agreed!

 

[ballen0351]

I think this is a perfect example. The first post was pretty iffy: tonyjw86 said, " It sounds bad but making a women mad by striking her really helps her come out of her shell and use some force." Yikes. Pretty inflammatory.

However, a few days later, he clarified and it turns out, he was saying something that most of us, including you, Tez, have endorsed: using realistic pressure and treating training partners like an equal.

OR did he realize what he said was wrong and back pedaled. Or realized he didnt like the backlash and changed hos tune. Kinda like the NFL suspended Ray Rice for 2 games then the backlash and they change their tune.
Or your right and he didnt mean it as he said

Giving the benefit of the doubt would be a good thing but Im a jerk so I normally see the worst in people

 

[Tez3]

OR did he realize what he said was wrong and back pedaled. Or realized he didnt like the backlash and changed hos tune. Kinda like the NFL suspended Ray Rice for 2 games then the backlash and they change their tune.
Or your right and he didnt mean it as he said

Giving the benefit of the doubt would be a good thing but Im a jerk so I normally see the worst in people

Hard to give the benefit of the doubt when something is said so plainly especially when you have long term experience of dealing with the aftermath of violence on women, one says what one thinks at the time. If it takes several days to decide it wasn't what he meant I would suggest that you are correct in your first idea.
We are probably conditioned by our experiences in both personal and work, it colours how we see things and I was horrified, a very honest reaction I assure you, to see someone suggest hitting a women hard to make her mad. I could see someone reading and taking up this 'advice' then some poor woman being hit hard and crumpling into a physical and mental mess because she wasn't taught properly to cope. It was a very unpleasant image. I think we have to be responsible in what we suggest on here. To my mind this was dangerous and I needed to say something in case anyone thought to copy the idea. If it was harsh on the person who wrote it, I'm sorry but not sorry I wrote what I did.
Others of course put a different spin on what I wrote but the above is the truth.

 

[Steve]

OR did he realize what he said was wrong and back pedaled. Or realized he didnt like the backlash and changed hos tune. Kinda like the NFL suspended Ray Rice for 2 games then the backlash and they change their tune.
Or your right and he didnt mean it as he said

Giving the benefit of the doubt would be a good thing but Im a jerk so I normally see the worst in people

You're absolutely right! There are a lot of different ways to handle it. I'm suggesting that the way to keep the discussion positive and constructive is to choose to presume good intent. What difference does it make if someone is back pedaling, changing his tiune or clarifying?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[K-man]

I think the way a thread is promoted can be a red flag. If it is a genuine question or statement such as; "So, You Want To Carry A Knife For Self-Defense" or "Different types of Short Power?", then you know instinctively that there will be an interesting discussion and some good advice. I will read what is posted but unless I have something constructive to add to the conversation I will move on. Occasionally I might make a comment and move on. Only if my comment is questioned or challenged will I comment further as my first post will normally be my comment on the topic. I will normally follow the thread but unless something arises down the track to justify another comment then that's it.

When you see a post like "Gun laws in Australia" you know there is someone pushing a barrow. Why would most people in the US even have a passing interest in what we do, unless they have a point to make?

"Is Aikido a Martial Art?" Was a provocative line but was in fact relating to a genuine article and genuine question, until it was hijacked by someone with no respect for Aikido after 5 posts. Instead of discussing the article we end up defending Aikido against someone who hasn't even trained Aikido. Good discussion can be stopped in the space of one post.

 

[Steve]

Hard to give the benefit of the doubt.

it's actually very easy. You just make the choice to do it. Here's a multiple choice question. Which one of the following is not conducive to positive, constructive interaction?

A: "You said X and you're a terrible person for it."
B: "Do you really mean X?"
C: "I heard X, and I must be misunderstanding you, because to me, X means [something horrible]."

 

[Elbowgrease]

I'm glad to see things being discussed in a positive manner.
I really can't come up with anything better to say at the moment, anything that I think might be really beneficial to the conversation. I've seen a lot of individual posts in this thread that I liked, but wasn't logged in to actually like them, maybe I'll go back and do that later.
All I can add, and it's advice that I am also trying (sometimes pretty hard) to use, don't let BS take up space in your head. It is difficult to do sometimes, but it really helps.
And sometimes,
if you don't have something nice to say,
just don't say anything at all.

 

[Tez3]

I'm glad to see things being discussed in a positive manner.
I really can't come up with anything better to say at the moment, anything that I think might be really beneficial to the conversation. I've seen a lot of individual posts in this thread that I liked, but wasn't logged in to actually like them, maybe I'll go back and do that later.
All I can add, and it's advice that I am also trying (sometimes pretty hard) to use, don't let BS take up space in your head. It is difficult to do sometimes, but it really helps.
And sometimes,
if you don't have something nice to say,
just don't say anything at all.

Sometimes though you have to be honest both with yourself and with others so you say what you have to. Not being honest can be disrespectful to others. People deserve honest answers, most of us appreciate that.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Though I think you can be honest and yet still respectful of other people and the systems they chose to study.

Personally, like K-Man mentioned above in encountering serious practitioner's from a system. In my time traveling and training I too have encountered some people that totally changed my outlook on the system that they studied. Their seriousness in their studies and the skill they had attained was impressive! I try to view anyone practicing their martial system through what elements, principles they use to achieve the desired result in their system. It is also important to note what their individual personal goals are as well. Mine might be different and cloud my vision so that is some thing that is important when talking and discussing the Martial Sciences.

 

[Elbowgrease]

I agree with that.
But I think sometimes when I'm facing what appears to be a man with one foot nailed to the floor, I have to just suck it up and walk away instead of chasing the guy with his foot nailed to the floor around in circles. Sometimes the biggest part of the battle is recognizing that.
Just my opinion.
But it's taken a long time to get to that, and sometimes it takes a lot of effort to keep that in mind.

Siege warfare is the lowest form of warfare.
An unstoppable force attacking an immovable object, indefinitely, until one stops or the other gives in (or the mods lock the board).
To get out of the way and let my enemy drive himself into the ground, that works a lot better.

I hope that didn't go too far sideways.

 

[Tez3]

When writing you aren't just answering another post you have an awful lot of others reading it, not just those who are posting on the thread but a whole load of people you don't know so you have to be responsible in what you write and you have to be responsible enough that if someone gives really bad ie dangerous advice or something patently untrue, you, rather than just ignore, correct it or at least give warnings. Suppose someone posts up that bashing your shins with a rolling pins is the only way to be able to do Muay Thai or getting your mate to punch you hard repeatedly in the stomach toughens you up, do you leave it or point out the dangers? You don't know who is reading so you don't want the wrong impression given. It isn't just the cosy few of us here I believe (and someone will post up the viewing figures for MT) we have more than a few thousand reading what is written here, so we are in the public domain, that chap may have one foot nailed to the floor ( nice analogy btw I like that!) but what he writes is mis-information, perhaps misleading or perhaps even dangerous, we aren't just answering him, we are telling everyone else too. We don't want to be responsible, even if we never know it, for that person ruining his legs or suffering a rupture because he read it on here.

 

[elder999]

I think Tez has inadvertently touched on an important aspect here when she threw in the comment on age. When you are twenty five, healthy fit and filled with testosterone then something like MMA has huge appeal. Once you're on the wrong side of 50 the body can't do what it once could and it doesn't get any easier as you creep past 60. To say to a person of that age that unless they get in the cage they don't know that their training sucks is not overly helpful. I have had guys in their 60s take up martial arts for the first time. If they came here and joined in some of the recent discussions I reckon far from being encouraged they would probably be convinced they were wasting their time.

A bit of consideration would go a long way towards making this a better place.

My oldest student ever was an 87 year old white belt... (these smileys are lame!)....Mr. Sillivent stuck with me for nearly three years, when he couldn't do it anymore.....still-As for that "wrong side of 50, " thing, I'd say that dying before you get there would be the real "wrong side of 50....." Otherwise, I've known extremely vigrorous people of "an advanced age..."

Wrong side of 50......I'm definitely on the right side of 50, thank you!
(After all, it's not like I have any choice!-insert :lfao: smiley here-oh, that's right-lame!)

You do understand that there's a difference between lack,( scarcity, rarity), and nonexistence correct?

Do you?

I mean "Bigfoot,?" Really?

ANd when you use superlatives, like "none whatsoever," even if that's not what you meant, it kind of makes the difference moot-makes it sound like,"I haven't seen it, so it doesn't exist."

Then, later, it became, "Well, if that's it, it's ridiculous."

What's ridiculous, to me, anyway, is that someone apparently expects an art like Shotokan to have a "ground game" or something, if someone says that it's got "grappling."

What's even more ridiculous is that someone who claims to "have a black belt in Shotokan," wouldn't have seen and understood the throws from Shotokan-throws that are taught almost from the beginning, and have been since the 1920's. Though maybe not completely-maybe your teacher didn't care about these things-people have been having open conversations about them, and what various mawatte mean (besides running out of gym floor!) and how they're applied for years, anyway-since the 1980's There's grappling in karate-you may not like it, but it's an established fact....

You also understand that there's a difference between "my experience" and "all" right?
.

Yeah.There's all sorts of evidence that "all" actually exists.

Your posts offer all sorts of evidence to the contrary for your "experience." .

 

[Elbowgrease]

I see your point, and I do agree.
(In a perfect world) it'd be nice to see the nonsense get it's lights knocked out without anyone getting too heated up about it.
Some of it just looked like it was getting taken way too personal, which isn't to say that it's not personal, but that sometimes.
Blah.
I'm not going to go through and read that whole thread again. I think I missed more than half of it anyway (which is probably a good thing).

For what it's worth,
My Sifu used to say that, a LOT.
"...otherwise you're just a guy with one foot nailed to the floor, you keep on walking around in circles not going anywhere. It's not going anywhere! So change..."
Now I see people everywhere walking in circles, and sometimes I don't realize I'm following them around in circles until we've walked a few miles in a little circle together. I'm getting better at it though.

 

[Tez3]

Over here we have the Ouzelum bird, it goes round and round until it disappears up it's own bum. (With apologies to the timeless Carry On team)
The Carry On films are never far from my mind when I'm on this site lol!
Ah infamy, infamy says Caesar they've all got it in for me! With that lot, Monty Python, The Two Ronnies, Dad's Army and Red Dwarf floating in my head I never take things personally lol. Trust me, if I'm frothing at the mouth it's because I'm eating sherbet.

I really do want our old emoticons back, pretty please?

 

[K-man]

I see your point, and I do agree.
(In a perfect world) it'd be nice to see the nonsense get it's lights knocked out without anyone getting too heated up about it.
Some of it just looked like it was getting taken way too personal, which isn't to say that it's not personal, but that sometimes.
Blah.
I'm not going to go through and read that whole thread again. I think I missed more than half of it anyway (which is probably a good thing).

For what it's worth,
My Sifu used to say that, a LOT.
"...otherwise you're just a guy with one foot nailed to the floor, you keep on walking around in circles not going anywhere. It's not going anywhere! So change..."
Now I see people everywhere walking in circles, and sometimes I don't realize I'm following them around in circles until we've walked a few miles in a little circle together. I'm getting better at it though.

Unfortunately I don't think it is as cut and dried as this. Across the whole range of martial arts terminology varies. To me the logical thing would be to hone in on one particular style and ask a specific question, defining your terms if necessary. For example, "How important is fighting in Okinawan Goju Ryu? For the sake of the question 'fighting' can mean anything from sport type sparring to grappling."

The recent thread, "How important is fighting in your martial art?", was always going to be a bun fight. The OP's position was clear from previous posts that he considered fighting in competition was the only test of a style's validity and if you didn't have YouTube video of your style of MA doing that then your style sucked. When asked to define the terms 'fighting' and 'martial art', the definitions were so loose that sensible discussion across the spectrum was going to be impossible. When I asked if we could hone in on one specific MA there was outright rejection of the idea. So at that stage I stepped away and just watched (your advice was followed).

How can you stay out when you are misquoted and your chosen MA is maligned?