Snaking Talon

[kenpoworks]

Hey, Doc,
"me old china"
Just give them the rope and they tie themselves up.
You crack me up.
"dumb is forever" yo, ho, ho!
Rich

 

[rmcrobertson]

I quite agree about the necessity of training hard but training as safe as possible; personally, I'm in this for the long haul.

 

[Doc]

Hey, Doc,
"me old china"
Just give them the rope and they tie themselves up.
You crack me up.
"dumb is forever" yo, ho, ho!
Rich

Thanks Mate! See you in May.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I am reminded of the differences between "effective" and "efficient". Many moves are, in fact, effective for the field of combat, or as technical applications of kenpo concepts. If "efficiency" refers to the ability to get the maximum effectiveness from an application with a minimum of damage to ones self, and the greatest recruitment of anatomical mechanisms within that framework, there is much in the main body of kenpo that is deadly effective, but not very efficient. Not mechanically, mind you. The history of CTD's in kenpo is too prevalent to believe we have it all right, just because it's how we were handed it and it looks good. Kinda like a motion version of urban legend.

Kenpo is, in my mind, the most efficient system available for consumption. Still, it continues to be propogated by persons with little or no training or experience in the academic physical disciplines. I can't help but wonder how our collective core cirriculum would change if the body of practitioners was suddenly inundated with kinesiologists, PT's, PhD's in biomechanics, etc. Parker was a genius, both as an idea man, and as an applications man. But he was not infallable (heresy?), and I suspect that even his motion in kenpo could have been improved through conclusions drawn by referencing the perspective of a different starting point.

What if kenpo was developed not to be the baddest and fastest kid on the block, but rather to be the most long-lived kid on the block? Something we are doing is bad for our bones. It behooves the current and next generation of seniors to bend heir wills to identifying and remedying these issues, while honoring the spirit of kenpo, before we pass on a damaging product to future consumers of our preoccupation.

Regards,

Dave

 

[rmcrobertson]

It's the weirdest thing. I keep saying, a) train safe, b) the chicken kicks don't seem to be any problem, done as I was taught; c) I'm over fifty.

Oh, and it's worth keeping in mind that as a system emphasizing low kicks and keeping yer feet on the ground, kenpo can cut a lot of the typical martial arty injuries.

Oh, and it's useful to teach students not to stomp when they switch, cover, etc.

 

[howardr]

The history of CTD's in kenpo is too prevalent to believe we have it all right

CTD's:

Cumulative Trauma Disorder?

Connective Tissue Disease?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

...Oh, and it's useful to teach students not to stomp when they switch, cover, etc.

Help me out here. Why not? Seems to me to be an excellent way to help the body find stability in structure, as opposed to the "sneaky foot slides" commonly seen in kenpo and other arts. Kinda has the effect of aligning the body against the forces of gravity, particularly after it has been intentionally misaligned to cover distance in the odd, modified gates we use to cover space or change position (i.e., foot maneuvers).

As a source of CTD, I don't personally imagine it being any harder on the body than walking.

Regards,

Dave

 

[rmcrobertson]

Stomping really IS bad mechanics; repetitive trauma to feet, ankles, and right on up the chain, as I learned as a brown belt whose feet--like those of many brown belts--hurt all the time. It's also unnecessary, though of course a good foot stomp is part of kenpo from at least, "Scraping Hooves," on.

Oh yeah--and when people are switching, they're jumping too high if their feet come way off the mat and slam down--it takes too long, and hurts over time..

 

[howardr]

Stomping really IS bad mechanics; repetitive trauma to feet, ankles, and right on up the chain, as I learned as a brown belt whose feet--like those of many brown belts--hurt all the time. It's also unnecessary, though of course a good foot stomp is part of kenpo from at least, "Scraping Hooves," on.

Oh yeah--and when people are switching, they're jumping too high if their feet come way off the mat and slam down--it takes too long, and hurts over time..

Well, I guess part of this revolves around just what we mean by "stomping." Stomping, I admit, sounds pretty bad. It conjures up for me at least, someone excessively slamming their foot to the ground. If this is what you are referring to when you reference "stomping," I'm sympathetic. However, it is possible to use a mechanism with the foot that might be mistaken for a "stomp," which is non-injurious but lends to immense benefit for body alignment and stability.

Stomping correctly, i.e., at the right time and place, can provide much benefit. However, what would seem to be a simple, almost soft, placement of foot at the proper time and place can yield the same benefits without employing excessive downward force. At first, I think, students have a need to use a more forceful stomp in order to get the feel and understanding of the underlying mechanism, internal structure and result sought. But, at same point (hopefully sooner than later), a much lighter, and certainly non-injurious, "stomp-lite," can and should be adopted.

I see this as an issue much like that of the "slap-check." While someone can certainly injure themselves by self-hitting, slap-checks done properly yield tremendous benefit, and do not produce injury (in fact, they prevent it).

So, I guess my underlying theme is that we may all be on the same page here, we might just need to clarify usage a bit.

 

[MisterMike]

I'd say stomping the ground is kinda bad compared to stomp kicks, which are meant to land on a cushy absorbant person.

 

[kenpoworks]

I can still remember the time I heard the sound and felt the vibration of Mr. Parker
settling once heard and felt never forgotten, it was a "what was that"! moment.
Mimics of Mr. Parker "stomp" for affect, students of Mr. Parker settle for effect.
Doc is well worth listening to on this subject he will entertain and educate you at the same time, he is the only one whom I (in my limited experience) have had qualified explanation from about this "phenomena"
Rich.

 

[TChase]

Ed Parker could shake a cement floor when he settled.

 

[kenpoworks]

Wow!...to feel is to believe

 

[kenpo3631]

The chicken kick by definition requires that the second kick be launched while the first is extended. Anything else is simply "two kicks." Done as a "chicken kick" to the rear they are anatomically incorrect, although to the front is acceptable. This "kick" was created by Jim Mitchell in an effort to create a 3rd kicking set that was all "chicken kicks" to the front, side, and rear. Ultimately it was rejected by Mr. Parker although some still use it.

Thanks Doc! I have been told Mitchell did many things, but this is one of the first times on this post I have seen one of the Seniors confirm it. Thanks!

 

[Doc]

Thanks Doc! I have been told Mitchell did many things, but this is one of the first times on this post I have seen one of the Seniors confirm it. Thanks!

Yes sir, there was about a 1 year period when Jim was available and Parker allowed him to express himself on some of the curriculum. In fact Jim and some of his students demonstrated his interpretation of the entire commercial curriculum on video for Mr. Parker (behind the camera) that included the Kicking Set 3, (2 for most), and even the extensions. That's not to say Parker adopted it, but Parker was always interested in others perspective and how they interpreted the information because that curriculum is by definition, "soft" and instructor based fluid.

It was during this window that Jim was allowed to pose for the pictures for volume 2 of Infinite Insights demonstrating the stances shot by Jim Grumwald. Ultimately Parker was very dissatisfied with Jim's presentation of the stances and vowed to re-shoot the pictures on subsequent reprints, and Jim didn't appear in any of the following volumes.

Most of the Parker projects were done by his family (primarily Edmund when he became old enough) and whomever among his students was available at the time. Some projects required a significant time commitment for perhaps months with essentially the same person(s) for continuity. This was not always possible for many.

Of course Parker passed away before he could re-shoot the series utilizing more modern computer technology that he envisioned and talked about extensively with Edmund in the late eighties.

 

[Seabrook]

Yes sir, there was about a 1 year period when Jim was available and Parker allowed him to express himself on some of the curriculum. In fact Jim and some of his students demonstrated his interpretation of the entire commercial curriculum on video for Mr. Parker (behind the camera) that included the Kicking Set 3, (2 for most), and even the extensions. That's not to say Parker adopted it, but Parker was always interested in others perspective and how they interpreted the information because that curriculum is by definition, "soft" and instructor based fluid.

It was during this window that Jim was allowed to pose for the pictures for volume 2 of Infinite Insights demonstrating the stances shot by Jim Grumwald. Ultimately Parker was very dissatisfied with Jim's presentation of the stances and vowed to re-shoot the pictures on subsequent reprints, and Jim didn't appear in any of the following volumes.

Most of the Parker projects were done by his family (primarily Edmund when he became old enough) and whomever among his students was available at the time. Some projects required a significant time commitment for perhaps months with essentially the same person(s) for continuity. This was not always possible for many.

Of course Parker passed away before he could re-shoot the series utilizing more modern computer technology that he envisioned and talked about extensively with Edmund in the late eighties.

Mr. Chapel,

We haven't met but I have read a lot of your posts, articles, ect.

I have a question for you:

Do you teach Kicking Set 2 and what is your take on the set? Sorry, this should probably be a new thread, but since it came up - I thought I would get your input on it.

Thanks,

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[pete]

i like to run a drill, using snaking talon and dart... dart, for those who don't know is a old technique against a left jab where you parry the left punch down with your right, check it with your left, as you continue to circle your right as you shuffle up with a right eye gouge. its a quick tech. anyways, if the left comes and there is no right punch coming (or you beat him), do dart. if the right punch comes in, continue the circle into snaking talon.

ohhh... another tip for the 'snaking' part, is to keep your elbow down and your wrist open. violating either of those will make the motion feel even more awkward and leave you open to getting yourself locked up! get the movement going from your belly.

i had the pleasure of running this drill again just this past friday night, and discovered another lesson learned here is for the defender to lead rather than anticipate.

pete.

 

[Doc]

Mr. Chapel,

We haven't met but I have read a lot of your posts, articles, ect.

I have a question for you:

Do you teach Kicking Set 2 and what is your take on the set? Sorry, this should probably be a new thread, but since it came up - I thought I would get your input on it.

Thanks,

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

No sir, I do not. What most call Kicking Set 2 would be for us Kicking Set 3. Mr. Parker included a simple "Elementary Kicking Set 1" that existed before the first kick set, so-called "Orange Kicking Set." We never stopped using it, and it is perfect for a beginner. These are the two kick sets we use. (Elementary & Orange called 1 & 2 for us).

Although I am not 100% sure, now that you've brought it up, the first time I heard of that set was when it was demonstrated by Jim Mitchell on that video, (hated it) and I haven't seen it since. It is entirely possible he came up with that one as well. I know he was working on all of the "number 2" sets for Mr. Parker in San Diego and put them on the video. I'll have to do a search of my memory banks, and review the video for a definitive answer on its creation.

We don't do any of the Jim Mitchell "2" sets. That particular set is Anatomically contradictory.

I look forward to meeting you one day sir,

Thanks for jogging the creeping "oldtimers" syndrome.

 

[Michael Billings]

I do the "Orange Kicking Set" or Exercises, in addition to Kicking Set #1 and Kicking Set #2. Anatomically correct or not, the set has some interesting things to teach, primarily in terms of gauging range. I do not teach the set until 2nd Brown, and by then the kicks and most of the kick combinations themselves, have already been learned.

As always Doc is a great source of the history of EPAK.

-Michael

 

[Doc]

I do the "Orange Kicking Set" or Exercises, in addition to Kicking Set #1 and Kicking Set #2. Anatomically correct or not, the set has some interesting things to teach, primarily in terms of gauging range. I do not teach the set until 2nd Brown, and by then the kicks and most of the kick combinations themselves, have already been learned.

As always Doc is a great source of the history of EPAK.

-Michael

I agree sir, (about what it teaches) and there are some interesting aspects that could be used, but I don't believe they should be used as presented in the entirety of the set. Besides like you say, the effective elements are covered in the techniques ultimately anyway.

I am going to find those tapes and take a look to refresh my memory.