Sifu Emin Boztepe

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MMAman

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Well for the early fights in UFC the people who represented WC looked like beginners at best who clearly had NO fighting experience. If I remember right, there was one 'WC' guy who lifted his leg and cowered back in fear when his opponent came at him. He looked scared to be in the ring, and with seemingly no fighting experience and most likely a beginner in WC. That person is pretty ignorant to get in there and fight. But i also think it's ignorant of you to judge WC off of those one or two people. I have a friend who does boxing and bjj, but can't fight his way out of a wet paper bag. I don't say MMA is bad because of that.

As far as the anti-grappling thing. It does work. It just has to be practiced with some one who knows how to grapple, so you can get down the timing, strength, leverage, etc. Not someone who thinks they know how to grapple. I've fended off plenty of wrestlers with some anti grappling techniques, granted not anyone in bjj.

so you used your anti-grappling stuff against grapplers. OK tell you what. I want you to try something. Go to any college wrestling team and try your stuff?. Those college Wrestlers are not that experienced, but be sure that they can give a real hard time. Fighters in the UFC are much more faster in grappling you and taking you down and submitting you.

I want you to try this experiment, and then tell us the outcome,

Thank you.
 

jas825_231

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so you used your anti-grappling stuff against grapplers. OK tell you what. I want you to try something. Go to any college wrestling team and try your stuff?. Those college Wrestlers are not that experienced, but be sure that they can give a real hard time. Fighters in the UFC are much more faster in grappling you and taking you down and submitting you.

I want you to try this experiment, and then tell us the outcome,

Thank you.

Lol, tough guy... I'm not going to go 'challenge' the wrestlers at my school. That's pretty childish... I'm not one to start pointless fights. Oh let's say I did fight a college wrestler, and by some miracle i win.... I'm sure that wouldn't be enough for you anyway.

Also, why are you comparing what I said to the UFC. I'm really glad you told me that pro mma fighters will be better than amateurs; I surely would have never known that if it weren't for your wisdom.

But hey if I ever have defend myself against a college wrestler I'll let you know how it goes.
 

MMAman

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Lol, tough guy... I'm not going to go 'challenge' the wrestlers at my school. That's pretty childish... I'm not one to start pointless fights. Oh let's say I did fight a college wrestler, and by some miracle i win.... I'm sure that wouldn't be enough for you anyway.

Also, why are you comparing what I said to the UFC. I'm really glad you told me that pro mma fighters will be better than amateurs; I surely would have never known that if it weren't for your wisdom.

But hey if I ever have defend myself against a college wrestler I'll let you know how it goes.

I am comparing it becuase some Wing chun trainers said that Anti-grappling will work against what those pro UFC fighters. Royce Gracie himself said this in an interview.

The Highs and Lows of Winning, by Royce Gracie

The Ultimate Fighting Championship has given me a great platform for
demonstrating what my family has believed in for over 65 years: That
the techniques of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu(R) prepare the best fighters in the
world. Winning at the UFC has made what we do very popular, and the
results are that I am getting a lot of attention, and our Academy is
growing like crazy. The publicity surrounding the UFC is very
controversial, and I receive many requests from the media for
interviews. I like to fight and I like the rewards, both emotional
and financial.

The only down side to being The Ultimate Fighting Champion is the
clowns I must deal with who claim to challenge me or the Gracie
Family, and who hide behind the publicity stunt of a challenge with no
intention of meeting me in the octagon. They use the tactics of a
challenge in an attempt to discredit the integrity of my victories,
and support their weak claims of fighting superiority. They then have
the audacity to explain why they do not want or need to fight in the
UFC.

I heard that there were over 400 applications for UFC IV, and many
fighters make no bones about who they are after - me! We also receive
many direct requests at the Academy from fighters who want to
challenge me, and who feel they deserve special treatment over all of
the other fighters in the UFC, because they are who they think they
are. The final insult comes when we bend over backwards to
accommodate a challenger, who then badgers us with excuses and the
fight never happens.

The most recent example is Emin Boztepe. First came his challenge,
then he told everyone why he does not need to fight in the UFC,
finally all the reasons why a scheduled fight outside the UFC will
never take place. All the while boasting of his alleged fighting
superiority.

In Boztepe's original challenge letter he made two requests. First,
that he fight only a Gracie. Second, that the winner takes all the
money (Boztepe said he would donate his to charity). Boztepe was
offered a special fight with me in UFC V by Art Davie. With this
offer all the conditions of Boztepe's challenge were met, but Boztepe
then said that he would not compete at the UFC. My brother Rorion,
then went to the effort of setting up a special match at a neutral
location, the Police Academy in Los Angeles. Boztepe then said the
fight was illegal in California, and he would not compete at the
Police Academy because my brother is a "member" and therefore it is
not neutral ground. For the record, the Police Academy is not a
health club and does not have "members". Rorion sits on a civilian
panel that assists the Police Academy with its self defense training.
So does Benny Urquidez and Gene LeBell, whose honor Boztepe is
supposedly defending. Just in case this new excuse is not enough,
Boztepe has his lawyer send a list of guarantees that must be met
before the fight is scheduled. Boztepe then suggested an alternative
location, and when my brother requested the same guarantees as
requested by Boztepe's lawyers, they accused me of not wanting to
fight.

I sometimes feel like the lion tamer at a circus dealing with real
lions who have the courage to step into the octagon. I regard
individuals like Boztepe as the clowns who entertain the audience
between performances. Boztepe has an open invitation, and a
guaranteed place at any UFC, yet he cannot bring himself to enter.
He requests a private match, then assigns his lawyer the task of
making sure it never happens.

I can only conclude that Boztepe was never serious about fighting a
Gracie in the first place.

This latest example of a publicity stunt by Boztepe is the final
reason why we will no longer take challenges outside the UFC. I
respect the fighters who have the courage to step into the octagon.
The reason the Ultimate Fighting Championship was developed was to
eliminate legal impediments to staging a real life no-holds-barred
fight. Anyone who wants to fight only the Gracies, please respect
the other fighters who have the guts to compete in the UFC. This
is how to get to Royce Gracie.

Now. If what anti-grappling stuff work. I guess we would saw it on the ring in the early days. If UFC rules are not good like people says, go to PRIDE. I think the rules are ok by all fighters, except for the deadly wing Chun system that cannot be used due to its fast finishing techniques!.
 

jas825_231

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I've heard both sides of the Boztepe vs Gracie thing. All I have to say to that is both should've stepped up and fought. I'm not going to take sides on that because, well i don't really care. It would've been a good fight though.

Now I think if some one with real fighting expierience that came out of WC that completed the system, could do just fine in ufc. But I doubt we'll ever see that since almost all wing chun practioners aren't trying to get into pro fighting. That's why we didn't see it then and we don't see it now. We have other goals then people who train in MMA.
 

tellner

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The problem is that the [W,V]ing [Ch,Ts]un camp has a long tradition of saying that it's unbeatable, the best, the most efficient and that nothing can beat its gates, center line theory, chain punching or choose your favorite. Not to put too fine a point on it, but Boztepe has been one of the worst. Honestly, if the big dysfunctional family had spent a little less time fighting itself it could have ruled the martial arts world starting in the 70s when the Bruce Lee craze was at its height. But they didn't, couldn't or wouldn't.

Then along came the Gracies who reminded everyone that there were wrestlers in the world, not just boxers. We knew that sooner or later people would figure out how to deal with the Gracies' system. Nothing is unbeatable. Heck, so did the Gracies. To their credit the Gracie family hasn't tried to make excuses. "Tonight he was the better fighter" and all the rest.
 

MMAman

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The problem is that the [W,V]ing [Ch,Ts]un camp has a long tradition of saying that it's unbeatable, the best, the most efficient and that nothing can beat its gates, center line theory, chain punching or choose your favorite. Not to put too fine a point on it, but Boztepe has been one of the worst. Honestly, if the big dysfunctional family had spent a little less time fighting itself it could have ruled the martial arts world starting in the 70s when the Bruce Lee craze was at its height. But they didn't, couldn't or wouldn't.

Then along came the Gracies who reminded everyone that there were wrestlers in the world, not just boxers. We knew that sooner or later people would figure out how to deal with the Gracies' system. Nothing is unbeatable. Heck, so did the Gracies. To their credit the Gracie family hasn't tried to make excuses. "Tonight he was the better fighter" and all the rest.

Finally. Someone who said it right "Excuses". Thank You
 

bcbernam777

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The problem is that the [W,V]ing [Ch,Ts]un camp has a long tradition of saying that it's unbeatable, the best, the most efficient and that nothing can beat its gates, center line theory, chain punching or choose your favorite. Not to put too fine a point on it, but Boztepe has been one of the worst. Honestly, if the big dysfunctional family had spent a little less time fighting itself it could have ruled the martial arts world starting in the 70s when the Bruce Lee craze was at its height. But they didn't, couldn't or wouldn't.

Then along came the Gracies who reminded everyone that there were wrestlers in the world, not just boxers. We knew that sooner or later people would figure out how to deal with the Gracies' system. Nothing is unbeatable. Heck, so did the Gracies. To their credit the Gracie family hasn't tried to make excuses. "Tonight he was the better fighter" and all the rest.

Can you show us some sources that say it is unbeatable?

If you talk to any half decent WC exponant, being unbeatable is far from the truth, infact that is the same with any system, it all comes down to the fighter, his teaching and his training, if you where to ask me Wing Chun is, as i believe it to be the most effecient form of fighting there is, that is my personal opinion, i have yet to find an MA that is as effecient, but when you start talking about unbeatable, that is up to the man, not the system.

Also you will find that any half decent WC exponant will not make excuses, hey I lost, but what they will do is go back to the drawing board, look at what went wrong, and then train for that particular situation, technique, whatever
 

SilatFan

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I've heard both sides of the Boztepe vs Gracie thing. All I have to say to that is both should've stepped up and fought. I'm not going to take sides on that because, well i don't really care. It would've been a good fight though.

Now I think if some one with real fighting expierience that came out of WC that completed the system, could do just fine in ufc. But I doubt we'll ever see that since almost all wing chun practioners aren't trying to get into pro fighting. That's why we didn't see it then and we don't see it now. We have other goals then people who train in MMA.


It makes me laugh to read you say Royce should have stepped up. The guy has faught men with who had some excellent credentials. A guy who had blackbelts in 10 different arts, a pro boxer, a sumo wrestler, American and Japanese wrestlers, a judo gold medalist, a pro kickboxer, a savate & kyoko shinkai blackbelt, a shotokan blackbelt a aikido black belt and 5 animal kungfu blacksash, and a kenpo blackbelt plus others (those guys w/ black belts are still highly respected with in their arts today and had reached different degrees of BB at that time). Names like shamrock, Van Cliffe, Sakuraba, Hughes, Pardoe, severen, hackney, gerald Gordeu, kimo, pat smith, etc, etc... Plus a lot of this was back when no one had any clue what would happen when you matched up these different arts and fighters. Who did Emin every fight? An old Chinese guy? Yeah Royce needed to step up. Emin had no desire to fight. He challenged Royce and then wanted special rules. When they said ok he just found another way to back out. He also said he chalenged Bas Rutten and rutten was scared. Rutten went to talk to him face to face and he again backed down again.

I dont pretend like MMA is the best art or that you have to be a fighter to be respected as a person. But c'mon. When it suited Emin to fight - like when it was against an old man - then he did. If it suited him to get free hype by challenging fighters with a big name he did. But when it came to backing up his words against those competent fighters - He took that invincable art, turned tail and ran. Who knows maybe old man Helio is old enough for Emin to Jump from behind like he did to W. Cheung?
 

Si-Je

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Wow, the thread really took off! lol!
As for UFC fighters "testing" their style in the ring, what I see is that everyone in UFC fights the same now. They all train the same stuff, boxing, BJJ, and kickboxing. So, how can you say that they are "testing" their fighting style against other styles? In the early UFC's there were people that competed who trained a style for years, this is not so anymore. MMA takes a bit from one style and a bit from another, no real mastery of one style. This in my eyes does NOT make you a mixed martial artist. My view of a mixed martial artist is someone who's completed training in two or more arts/styles for a full understanding and mastery of one art before learning another.

As for Emin wanting a no rules fight, street style, that would allow him to fully use his techniques while fighting. UFC has many rules designed to favor grappling. Grappling in the street is not as effective. Sure, you can take an opponent down to the ground in the street, but then your dealing with concrete not mats, painful. Or gravel from your opponents chest falling into your face, broken glass, nails, chairs, tables, parked cars, all kinds of objects in the street or real life that will get in the way. What about stairs? Would you grapple someone who attacks you on a stairway?
Wing Chun is designed for realistic street combat, not the octagon, and to compare the techniques to MMA or BJJ is comparing apples and oranges.
In UFC your not allowed to strike the back of the neck, eye gouge, kick to the knee joint, groin, or even to use the neck take downs from Wing Chun, you can't knee the head of the opponent while they're getting up off the ground or kick them as they get up off the ground. You can't step on their face while their on the ground, etc. These are all things you would do in a street fight. To survive. You wouldn't want to be totally wrapped up in an oppoent on the street while his buddies kick you in the face and head while your on the ground.

As for Emin, he has had many real street fights in his life. In clubs, on the street, a couple of hundred. This is a Wing Chunner who HAS tested his style numerous times, and hey, he's still breathing, isn't crippled, and healthy to tell the tales.

We've had students come to our class that wrestled in High School and studied BJJ and MMA. We've used and taught them the anti-grappling. I assure you from experience that it works great against these stylists. Simply because their ultimate goal is to grab us with both their hands and submit. Very aggressive yes, but we don't grab back, leaving our hands free to strike numerous times within seconds. For seconds are all you have. Plus, the legs are pumping and kicking and we use the entire body to corkscrew them off or get out of arm bars and such. All at the same time, true to WC concept.

I've trained many other arts before WC. And it's really just the easiest and most effecient way to fight that I have come across. I'm a small framed woman, and MMA, boxing, mui tai, kickboxing, BJJ and all that just does NOT work for me against larger opponents. PERIOD. I'm 120lbs. 5'5" and I bruise like a girl! lol! Every art I've ever taken, I've had to strip away the techniques that just wouldn't work for me in a street fight, that were too risky, and compromised my situation with a larger attacker. With WC I haven't had to do that. Not once.

Sigh, unfortunately what I see, is that American society is impatient and arrogant. I live here, so I see it. We live in a happy meal, sitcome, 30 second, t.v. dinner society where people don't want to really devote time and truely train and learn an art. (this is a very general statement, their are a few people who are the exception). We want to be bad to the bone "fighers" in a very short amount of time. We're always in such a hurry to get nowhere. We want "proof" of suedo facts that reinforce and confirm that what we're training is real. Unfortunately, many of us must get this confirmation from t.v. or outside of ourselves, dojos, or quoons. This confirmation does not tell us the truth and is completely misleading.

I would never box in a street fight because my hands arent' wrapped and I would therefore break my hands should I make contact. Boxing is designed for the ring.

I would never use BJJ because concrete is hard and my tail bone, spine, hip, or head isn't. BJJ is designed for the ring.

I would never use kickboxing in the street because high kicks take time to execute and oil, beer/water on the floor at a club, chairs, tables, a hall or alleyway is confining and would make many techniques impractical. Plus, when kicking high your on only one leg, I could kick someone in the head as I get tackled by his buddie, or while they swing a two by four in the back of my head. Kickboxing is designed for the ring.

We train to fight multiple attackers in class. It's about changing the way you think. Your strategy in the street is totally different than in the ring. With multiple attackers you go for the break, not the submission. I want to break one's leg with a low heel kick the first time, followed up by chain punching or other technique, spending no more than 6-8 seconds on one person. I want to keep moving, keep my feet, and get ready for the next attacker. No time to "submit".

A rapist would not be beaten my submission. He would have to be devastated. Quickly, and without remorse. If he will take affections from me by force, then he will take more, like my very life.
Same thing with a mugger or street thug trying to prove something.
These people do not deserve "rules of engagement" or submission, or any quarter from me or anyone. This is what we train to defend against.
We're not training for metals, tropheys, or recognition. We fight to live, we fight to keep from being maimed, scared, or from just being victimized.
Apples and oranges.
MMA and Wing Chun.

Both me and my husband have grown up in tough neighborhoods, with gangs, thugs, molestors, junkies, pimps, and all kinds of criminal element. We know what will work and what won't when it counts. Devastate the opponent quickly before they get to a knife, gun, or other weapon, before they go get help from their buddies. The street is unforgiving and leaves no room for error, mercy, or hesitation.
 

Rook

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Ah so no Wing Chun fighter in the world has ever had a fight?

Perhaps never won a fight against a SKILLED MMAist/grappler.

Agreed, but to blame the art is ridculous, i know plenty of Wing Chun fighters who move like the wind, they observe good principles such as bridging, timing, etc.

Think about what he just said. You're still discussing theory not sucessful application. Where is the application he was talking about? When you talk about countering a tactic, there should be some instance of the counter actually working on a competent opponent - and in the case of wing chun anti-grappling, there is not. Find any MMAist or grappler who is ranked in a major organization (UFC, PRIDE, ADCC, etc) or any wrestler with real credentials (try any NCAA division 1 all American or something of that nature) and see how far any of that stuff goes. The sprawl will stop them, done correctly. There is no instance in which wing chun anti-grappling has ever stopped them and I think if you are going to tell people it is effective, you should have proof along the lines of 3 Cs:

1. Consistancy - not one instance but a consistant record
2. Competency - high quality, high level opponents not some guy from your school who watched the UFC twice last week
3. Credible evidence - video, court documents, academic journals things like that - not legends and what someone on the internet told you

This only gets back to the original quote you brought up about Bruce, those who dont move are trapped within their own learned helplessness, martial robots, they obviously had no life in their art, I know when training my Sifu constantly challenges us to think, not just blindly do. Theory + Real World Practice + Lateral Thinking is a good combination in any art, these people obvislyy had the first but not the other 2 elements.

So find someone who can and send them to fight. Don't just TELL us that there were deficient fighters but you have better ones - SHOW us. Send them and lets see how they fare.

Which goes back to a point I made on another thread, why try to fight someone on their terms, there is more than one way to control heaven and earth (please refer to Sun Tzu)

Your system of "anti-grappling" has not worked. There are several ways to grapple, and I don't believe that anyone on this thread has denigriated the working grappling systems of judo, BJJ, SAMBO, catchwrestling, shootfighting and submission wrestling.


I am sorry I must be watching a different UFC

Or not paying attention.

Probably because Wing Chun has its own awnsers to this conudrum

In THEORY. You still haven't beaten them in practice, which is what is generally required to have it considered an answer.

Oh thats right, no one ever got into a real fight until MMA came along, you serve a strong case for a real fact that MMA practicioners have been hit entirely too many times in the head and live in punch drunk land.

No one said that. However, you still have a long way to go to prove rather than assert a great many things.

Correction he knew a experential fact that was real for him in his training, I know of other people who know other facts, infact I know of people who have left the wonderful world of MMA and have gone into TMA's because of its own series of shortcomings and inconsistancies, do I then go on to publish the fact that MMA is useless because of their own experiance, no to do that borders on idiocy.

Anyone who reached any level of professional MMA? I have never seen or heard of any ranked professional who has quit to study TMA - however, there are lots of people who tried some lessons and quit. Perhaps you should look at the credentials in MMA before you conclude that they have the first idea what they are talking about on the level of personal experiance.

For a start you dont know this persons level of training in Wing Chun, you dont know what teacher he was under, you dont know any of these things.

You are simply using a statement from one Wing Chun proponant to support your argumant and trounce it of as being the "golden fact".

He's making the point that even people within your own system have seen its shortcomings.

Now I am not saying that their are not other Wing Chunners incroporating BJJ into their teaching, but I know of kempo teachers who are incorporating BJJ as well, does it mean that they have seen the light? Well I asked one who is a friend, who stated to me quite clearly, that the only reason they are offering BJJ Classes mixed with their own martial art is because it makes more economic sense, as offering both bjj and MT broadens his client base by being all things to all people.

Many of us in our local WC circles know for a fact that the whole reason many WC teachers incorporate BJJ into their curriculum was because it was a business decision, to broaden their own Student base. Its all about money thats it.

Thats true enough... many TMA schools follow the flavor of the month whatever it may be. They won't get far in the BJJ comps. if they even go at all.

I think the word your looking for is fact, not facts, facts indicate that there was more than one.

Where are the fights to support your alternative view?
 

Rook

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Wow, the thread really took off! lol!
As for UFC fighters "testing" their style in the ring, what I see is that everyone in UFC fights the same now. They all train the same stuff, boxing, BJJ, and kickboxing. So, how can you say that they are "testing" their fighting style against other styles?

In the gym and at the lower level of tournaments, they frequently fight people from other systems. There are several systems of grappling and striking, and while the Big Four (BJJ, western wrestling, western boxing, muay thai) is the dominent mix now, other mixtures do exist including judo in the place of BJJ, or SAMBO or submission wrestling in the place of BJJ and wrestling, or Kyokushin karate in the place of muay thai, or kickboxing and some limited work with knees in the place of boxing and muay thai and so forth. There is a great variety of personal fighting styles as well.

In the early UFC's there were people that competed who trained a style for years, this is not so anymore. MMA takes a bit from one style and a bit from another, no real mastery of one style. This in my eyes does NOT make you a mixed martial artist. My view of a mixed martial artist is someone who's completed training in two or more arts/styles for a full understanding and mastery of one art before learning another.

You know, some people would say that no one can ever completely master even one style. Besides, being well rounded seems to work alot better than being well trained in one displine and then being demolished by someone who can take you outside that area.

As for Emin wanting a no rules fight, street style, that would allow him to fully use his techniques while fighting.

This is NOT true. The Gracies offered him both a fight without rules, in their gym, and a fight with rules in the UFC. He wanted a fight with rules, but different ones than the UFC, and while the Gracies tried to negociate, he did not accept their counterproposals.

UFC has many rules designed to favor grappling. Grappling in the street is not as effective. Sure, you can take an opponent down to the ground in the street, but then your dealing with concrete not mats, painful. Or gravel from your opponents chest falling into your face, broken glass, nails, chairs, tables, parked cars, all kinds of objects in the street or real life that will get in the way. What about stairs? Would you grapple someone who attacks you on a stairway?

Why don't you ask the people who have done it instead of spouting of theory?

Wing Chun is designed for realistic street combat, not the octagon, and to compare the techniques to MMA or BJJ is comparing apples and oranges.
In UFC your not allowed to strike the back of the neck, eye gouge, kick to the knee joint, groin, or even to use the neck take downs from Wing Chun, you can't knee the head of the opponent while they're getting up off the ground or kick them as they get up off the ground. You can't step on their face while their on the ground, etc. These are all things you would do in a street fight. To survive.

Perhaps you should consider no-rules challenges and see how they fare. The Gracies, Chute-Boxe Academy, www.bullshido.com, and several MMA gyms are open to no rules fights. Why don't we see wing chun people going and winning?

You wouldn't want to be totally wrapped up in an oppoent on the street while his buddies kick you in the face and head while your on the ground.

Of course. On the other hand, someone might be alone and like most people, unskilled in grappling, in which case you could take them down and finish the fight very quickly.

As for Emin, he has had many real street fights in his life. In clubs, on the street, a couple of hundred. This is a Wing Chunner who HAS tested his style numerous times, and hey, he's still breathing, isn't crippled, and healthy to tell the tales.

Even assuming that this is true, its a figure easily matched by many bouncers and police officers who have no formal Martial arts training whatsoever.

We've had students come to our class that wrestled in High School and studied BJJ and MMA. We've used and taught them the anti-grappling. I assure you from experience that it works great against these stylists. Simply because their ultimate goal is to grab us with both their hands and submit. Very aggressive yes, but we don't grab back, leaving our hands free to strike numerous times within seconds. For seconds are all you have. Plus, the legs are pumping and kicking and we use the entire body to corkscrew them off or get out of arm bars and such. All at the same time, true to WC concept.

Ok, what are their MMA records? What are their BJJ records? What levels of wreslers are we talking about? Every professional MMA fighter outside the former Soviet block has their entire pro record posted on www.Sherdog.com, so its easy to check - all I need is a name and proof that they actually lost to your tactics (like video or something). Of course, you won't produce either.

I've trained many other arts before WC. And it's really just the easiest and most effecient way to fight that I have come across. I'm a small framed woman, and MMA, boxing, mui tai, kickboxing, BJJ and all that just does NOT work for me against larger opponents. PERIOD. I'm 120lbs. 5'5" and I bruise like a girl! lol! Every art I've ever taken, I've had to strip away the techniques that just wouldn't work for me in a street fight, that were too risky, and compromised my situation with a larger attacker. With WC I haven't had to do that. Not once.

Have you tried WC against a larger opponent who was competent in these other arts? Small size always puts you at a disadvantage; having training where that isn't drawn out is problematic.

Sigh, unfortunately what I see, is that American society is impatient and arrogant. I live here, so I see it. We live in a happy meal, sitcome, 30 second, t.v. dinner society where people don't want to really devote time and truely train and learn an art. (this is a very general statement, their are a few people who are the exception). We want to be bad to the bone "fighers" in a very short amount of time. We're always in such a hurry to get nowhere.

The pro fighters train for many hours a day and with great intensity. This is an absurd arguement. Anyone who is going to get anywhere in any sport art must train very long and very hard in order to reach their full potential or to stand a chance against other sports fighters.

We want "proof" of suedo facts that reinforce and confirm that what we're training is real. Unfortunately, many of us must get this confirmation from t.v. or outside of ourselves, dojos, or quoons. This confirmation does not tell us the truth and is completely misleading.

Inside the dojo, you deal with partners who are not trying to beat you. Even in sparring, they probably don't want to hurt you. To say that you can fight well, you need to fight against people who are. To prove it, you need the 3 Cs above.

I would never box in a street fight because my hands arent' wrapped and I would therefore break my hands should I make contact. Boxing is designed for the ring.

Many boxers and people throwing boxing punches have won streetfights without breaking their hands. Your hands and wrists probably are not properly conditioned, but those of others are.

I would never use BJJ because concrete is hard and my tail bone, spine, hip, or head isn't. BJJ is designed for the ring.

No. BJJ was designed for the Gracie family's self defense needs. It was taken to the ring because Helio Gracie believed that it was a more effective fighting method than most other ways available and wanted to prove it rather than assert it. It turns out he was right.

I would never use kickboxing in the street because high kicks take time to execute

Some MMAists share this sentiment; others have good high kicks and do not share it.

and oil, beer/water on the floor at a club, chairs, tables, a hall or alleyway is confining and would make many techniques impractical.

You should be aware of you surroundings and know when you do and do not have an opening for a particular technique.

Plus, when kicking high your on only one leg, I could kick someone in the head as I get tackled by his buddie, or while they swing a two by four in the back of my head.

Easier said than done.

Kickboxing is designed for the ring.

It was a better working modification of the battlefield art of karate.

We train to fight multiple attackers in class.

Perhaps you should start with being able to fight well against one person you know is coming and progress to multiples and surpises.

It's about changing theway you think. Your strategy in the street is totally different than in the ring. With multiple attackers you go for the break, not the submission. I want to break one's leg with a low heel kick the first time,

Has this ever been done sucessfully against a competent fighter? Evidence?

followed up by chain punching or other technique, spending no more than 6-8 seconds on one person. I want to keep moving, keep my feet, and get ready for the next attacker. No time to "submit".

A rapist would not be beaten my submission. He would have to be devastated.

You have lapsed into theory. Who have you been able to fight against sucessfully in this manner?

Quickly, and without remorse. If he will take affections from me by force, then he will take more, like my very life.
Same thing with a mugger or street thug trying to prove something.
These people do not deserve "rules of engagement" or submission, or any quarter from me or anyone. This is what we train to defend against.
We're not training for metals, tropheys, or recognition. We fight to live, we fight to keep from being maimed, scared, or from just being victimized.
Apples and oranges.
MMA and Wing Chun.

This is more nonsense.

Both me and my husband have grown up in tough neighborhoods, with gangs, thugs, molestors, junkies, pimps, and all kinds of criminal element. We know what will work and what won't when it counts. Devastate the opponent quickly before they get to a knife, gun, or other weapon, before they go get help from their buddies. The street is unforgiving and leaves no room for error, mercy, or hesitation.

Hmm...
 

ed-swckf

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Its ridiculously boring and generic threads like this that make this place one to avoid. Since my time here i have seen so much inane squawking about this vs that, generally knocking other arts and using baseless comments and futile arguments. To be honest it seems much more like a competition than a discussion, i swear i would not be supprised if people began comparing the size of their manhood in these threads. It seems people from all arts are guilty of this but being as this is the area i mainly frequent i see it here the most. Just wanted to say i'm bored of the unsubstantial, inconclusive, petty back and forth threads.
 

Si-Je

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You know, some people would say that no one can ever completely master even one style. Besides, being well rounded seems to work alot better than being well trained in one displine and then being demolished by someone who can take you outside that area. ...

when I say "master" I mean to have a full understanding of the art in question. There are not very many masters these days, and to aspire to be one before crosstraining would be impractical.

This is NOT true. The Gracies offered him both a fight without rules, in their gym, ...

I wouldn't consider a fight in the gracies personal gym a fight without rules, dear. lol!

Perhaps you should consider no-rules challenges and see how they fare. The Gracies, Chute-Boxe Academy, www.bullshido.com, and several MMA gyms are open to no rules fights. Why don't we see wing chun people going and winning? ...

Probably because the really good WC people don't care about competition and have nothing to prove to other stylists. You seem to be very confrontational about this competing stuff, and get your feathers ruffled about people that aren't impressed with your competitions.
Question, can you kick the groin? Gouge the eye? Kick the knee? Chop the throat?
I ask because I don't know anything about these competitions. Don't really care. But I know that MMA and the Gracies have many rules of combat regardless of what is said. I don't know why people don't compete from wing chun schools, I don't have any control over what others do or don't do. Nor do I know why.

Of course. On the other hand, someone might be alone and like most people, unskilled in grappling, in which case you could take them down and finish the fight very quickly. ...

In a perfect world that would be so... But last I checked many many people take grappling these days. Plus, last time I experienced a street confrontation, they are NEVER alone.

Even assuming that this is true, its a figure easily matched by many bouncers and police officers who have no formal Martial arts training whatsoever. ...

That may be so, but it doesn't detract from the "fact" that Emin is an experienced fighter. So, your point is moot.


Ok, what are their MMA records? What are their BJJ records? What levels of wreslers are we talking about? Every professional MMA fighter outside the former Soviet block has their entire pro record posted on www.Sherdog.com, so its easy to check - all I need is a name and proof that they actually lost to your tactics (like video or something). Of course, you won't produce either. ...

Darlin', these people that have come to our class have been students of wrestling and BJJ/MMA for a year or two. These were NOT purse professional fighters. I never said that they were, or that they were 'PRO". That would be silly. Your being silly. This conversation is becoming silly. lol!
If we wish to compete against these Sherdog.com fighters then we'll train a student or my instructor/husband will train to compete. (He's been wanting to do that for some time now, he like to compete.)
And per your aggressive request, we WILL take video and "produce it".

Have you tried WC against a larger opponent who was competent in these other arts? Small size always puts you at a disadvantage; having training where that isn't drawn out is problematic. ...

Yes, dear. I have. But what does it matter to you? I have all the proof I need through training, and experience.


The pro fighters train for many hours a day and with great intensity. This is an absurd arguement. Anyone who is going to get anywhere in any sport art must train very long and very hard in order to reach their full potential or to stand a chance against other sports fighters. ...

Again, we don't train to fight pro fighters. We train realistic self-defense. Apples and Oranges my friend. And I would not fight someone who does train as a pro athlete in a realm of rules and regulations. This would not benefit my situation. I'm broke all the time and can't afford the grocery bill to train like those folks, the gym membership, the personal trainers, and we work for a living, so don't train 8 hours a day. lol!
(although we'd love to, and now the school is opened we may be able to train 8 hours a day!!)
So, why would I fight a man/woman who trains like that under any kind of rules? funny, so funny.

Inside the dojo, you deal with partners who are not trying to beat you. Even in sparring, they probably don't want to hurt you. To say that you can fight well, you need to fight against people who are. To prove it, you need the 3 Cs above. ...

Again, I don't need to prove it by beating the crap out of someone. We spar with full gear like MMA folks do in their gyms. In an actual fight things would get much more vicious, and dirty. Even dirtier than in the octagon, or cage.
So, how can you "practice" someone trying to kill you? lol!
Again, silliness. Your going to far with your concept of reality. Or not far enough, if your thinking that fighting in the cage is the equalivalent to reality on the street.

Many boxers and people throwing boxing punches have won streetfights without breaking their hands. Your hands and wrists probably are not properly conditioned, but those of others are. ...

LOL! Again, I'm not Mike Tyson! That's my point. unless your strong and muscular then these types of styles won't benefit you. Your proving my point.

Perhaps you should start with being able to fight well against one person you know is coming and progress to multiples and surpises. ...

That's exactly how we train. ;)

You have lapsed into theory. Who have you been able to fight against sucessfully in this manner? ...

I've used the art when I needed it, and we've sparred and tried out our techniques with other schools and types of fighters. I've been pretty successful, my teacher has done very very well. We have a few instructors that are buddies of ours and we go to eachothers schools and "play", share techniques and sparr for good cross style practice. Even a few tournaments. No big deal. Just checking out ourselves to make sure we're learning and progressing as we should.

This is more nonsense. ...

You shut the door to your mind far too quickly. You've been told what is possible and impossible and you do not question it. The mind is very powerful.
I came from a strong Ju-Jitsu background when I started WC and had to train myself not to be defeated just because I was put in a joint lock, or to think that I had submitted someone and won just because I had them (especially my teacher who always got out of my holds) in a choke, or armbar. I found that my perceptions of fighting and "winning" were distorted and my confidence in my ability to submit misplaced. Sure, on the average joe I'd probably be okay, but anyone trained to strike or a wacked out idiot from the street would be another story.

I used to think very much the way you do in these matters until I started training WC. I had to get slapped around alot before I came to understand that what I was trying to do to my instructor as counters were NOT working. I was drilled and trained that these techniques will always work, and they don't. simple as that. I was mad, I was frustrated, I was sad, I was a stubborn student and difficult for him to train in my first year.
But, once I learned to let go of my old training, I could open my mind to
what was being taught to me and learn. Making me a better martial artist (I'm only a "fighter" in the street when I absolutely have to be, not in the ring or cage.) teacher, and person.

I think you missed the gist of my post. And will not explain more to you. Becasue it seems you just wish to fuss.
 

Rook

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when I say "master" I mean to have a full understanding of the art in question. There are not very many masters these days, and to aspire to be one before crosstraining would be impractical.

What would you consider a "full understanding?" Even at the end of his life, Funakoshi said that he was only begining to understand the most basic block in karate, and he is considered the father of Japanese karate, and by some all modern karate.

I wouldn't consider a fight in the gracies personal gym a fight without rules, dear. lol!

They have no prohibited techniques and no restrictions on tactics or strategies.

Probably because the really good WC people don't care about competition and have nothing to prove to other stylists. You seem to be very confrontational about this competing stuff, and get your feathers ruffled about people that aren't impressed with your competitions.
Question, can you kick the groin? Gouge the eye? Kick the knee? Chop the throat?

With the Gracies or the Bullshido people etc - ABSOLUTELY. People try it over and over. As for the knee kick it is both common and universally allowed in ALL major MMA competitions.

I ask because I don't know anything about these competitions. Don't really care. But I know that MMA and the Gracies have many rules of combat regardless of what is said.

The modern tournaments do have many rules. If you want to fight without them, you need to set up a challenge match, which is neither hard to do nor uncommon.

I don't know why people don't compete from wing chun schools, I don't have any control over what others do or don't do. Nor do I know why.

I do. They lose, and they know they will lose, and have decided that a more potent strategy for getting students is to appeal to people who don't know any better rather than trying to "correct" the record.

In a perfect world that would be so... But last I checked many many people take grappling these days. Plus, last time I experienced a street confrontation, they are NEVER alone.

Many fights are one on one. Also, most people are not skilled in grappling.

That may be so, but it doesn't detract from the "fact" that Emin is an experienced fighter. So, your point is moot.

Emin has not proven that even ONE of his streetfights ever even took place - you have simply chosen to take him at his word without any video or court documents or anything. Also, even if his streetfights were real, they would prove little about his abilities as a fighter, as many people win just as many streetfights without any martial arts ability, so it really doesn't mean that he fights better or as well as anyone else.

Darlin', these people that have come to our class have been students of wrestling and BJJ/MMA for a year or two. These were NOT purse professional fighters. I never said that they were, or that they were 'PRO". That would be silly. Your being silly. This conversation is becoming silly. lol!

Assuming your "anti-grappling" worked at all, that is why. The fact is that it still has NEVER ONCE been used sucessfully against ANY quality professional fighter... so how can we be discussing it as a defense against their tactics if it has never been used sucessfully against them?

If we wish to compete against these Sherdog.com fighters then we'll train a student or my instructor/husband will train to compete. (He's been wanting to do that for some time now, he like to compete.)
And per your aggressive request, we WILL take video and "produce it".

I will look forward to seeing it.

Yes, dear. I have. But what does it matter to you? I have all the proof I need through training, and experience.

You must not have fought anyone competent yet... thats what I keep saying.

Again, we don't train to fight pro fighters. We train realistic self-defense. Apples and Oranges my friend. And I would not fight someone who does train as a pro athlete in a realm of rules and regulations. This would not benefit my situation. I'm broke all the time and can't afford the grocery bill to train like those folks, the gym membership, the personal trainers, and we work for a living, so don't train 8 hours a day. lol!
(although we'd love to, and now the school is opened we may be able to train 8 hours a day!!)
So, why would I fight a man/woman who trains like that under any kind of rules? funny, so funny.

Because their fighting seems to work a lot better?

Again, I don't need to prove it by beating the crap out of someone. We spar with full gear like MMA folks do in their gyms. In an actual fight things would get much more vicious, and dirty. Even dirtier than in the octagon, or cage.
So, how can you "practice" someone trying to kill you? lol!

You don't practice stuff that can't be done full contact; thats how sports stylists become proficient is by fighting will full resistance rather than demostrating their eyepoke on a compliant opponent.

You CAN still test the "dirty" tactics you seem so enamored with.

LOL! Again, I'm not Mike Tyson! That's my point. unless your strong and muscular then these types of styles won't benefit you. Your proving my point.

How so? I have seen very small boxers who can hit quite hard FOR THEIR SIZE.

That's exactly how we train. ;)

Except that you (and anyone from your style to date) haven't managed to beat any one competent opponent and according to your remarks above, aren't interested in trying.

I've used the art when I needed it, and we've sparred and tried out our techniques with other schools and types of fighters. I've been pretty successful, my teacher has done very very well. We have a few instructors that are buddies of ours and we go to eachothers schools and "play", share techniques and sparr for good cross style practice. Even a few tournaments. No big deal. Just checking out ourselves to make sure we're learning and progressing as we should.

No, you discussed preventing a submission via strikes, a very specific claim. When has this happened and against what level of opponent with what consistancy?

You shut the door to your mind far too quickly. You've been told what is possible and impossible and you do not question it. The mind is very powerful.

I believe anything there is proof for and nothing there is not. I believe little that I have been told and not SHOWN. Extraordinary claims demand extraordinary proof... I'd settle for regular proof... I'd respect some beginings of proof... I could discuss progess towards the beginings of proof. You have given me nothing of the sort - just claims and a demand that I trust you rather than being shown evidence.

I came from a strong Ju-Jitsu background when I started WC and had to train myself not to be defeated just because I was put in a joint lock, or to think that I had submitted someone and won just because I had them (especially my teacher who always got out of my holds) in a choke, or armbar. I found that my perceptions of fighting and "winning" were distorted and my confidence in my ability to submit misplaced. Sure, on the average joe I'd probably be okay, but anyone trained to strike or a wacked out idiot from the street would be another story.

I used to think very much the way you do in these matters until I started training WC. I had to get slapped around alot before I came to understand that what I was trying to do to my instructor as counters were NOT working. I was drilled and trained that these techniques will always work, and they don't. simple as that. I was mad, I was frustrated, I was sad, I was a stubborn student and difficult for him to train in my first year.
But, once I learned to let go of my old training, I could open my mind to
what was being taught to me and learn. Making me a better martial artist (I'm only a "fighter" in the street when I absolutely have to be, not in the ring or cage.) teacher, and person. I think you missed the gist of my post. And will not explain more to you. Becasue it seems you just wish to fuss.

Ok.
 

shesulsa

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ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Admin note:

To be honest, this same argument coming out of everything is tiresome and now a bit off-topic ... again.

If there is anything further to discuss on the original topic, then this is the final warning to do so before the thread is closed. For the ongoing debate on TMA vs MMA, take it somewhere else ... another thread or TGD.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
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Si-Je

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The issue of why Emin has left EWTO has been addressed. My instructor was a Si-Hing of his when this all was taking place, and we have our insight to why he left based on seeing it happen as it happened.

And this very topic always seems to bring up William Chueng, the Gracies, and the effictiveness of anti-grappling on every post i've ever seem made on any board on the net. I find that to be very interesting and strange, since neither Chueng, or the Gracies have a THING to do with why he left.
Although, his creation and intigration of anti-grappling does. For it sparked an ugly money disagreement between him and Ling Ting, which led to further ugliness when Ling Ting tried to get him arrested by setting up 5-6 people to jump him as he came to an event (which he was invited to by Ling Ting with the premiss of safety and good will).
Thus, he was warned by his escrima teacher not to go, that these men were going to attack him and then Ling Ting was going to call the cops on Emin, portraying him as a bully and instigator and thus, getting him arrested. All to discredit Emin so Ling Ting could charge outrageous fees to current Sifu's to learn the anti-grappling, and so he could keep in under his system only.
So, Emin didn't go, and dodged that bullet. While Emin wanted it taught for virtually no money to all Wing Chun Sifu's in all federations, not just EWTO.

Emin split off from EWTO and Ling Ting, starting his own federation. Stating that he'd made alot of money for Ling Ting, and was not going to be used by him anymore. Emin was heartbroken, they were great friends and his Sifu for over 20 years. Like a father to him. And it seems that Emin was horribly betrayed by his master.
So, Ling Ting went to closing down his schools in Europe and America, thus bankrupting Emin. He gave many Technicians ranking as Sifu if they would leave Emin and join his federation. So, most of them took that deal.
Emin has had to rebuild from the ground up after the betrayal of his teacher. There is the truth on why he left. Ugliness, greed, and corruption in a federation, and his desire to be free of it.
This is very controversial topic all by itself, and I dont' know why people feel the need to throw William Chueng and the Gracies into it, MMA and all the other noise. Most people don't and won't like this posting, but it's the truth to what happened to Emin. He even talks about it in his interview from that time, we have it on VHS at the house. I believe Emin, I believe my husband, what others believe is not my concern, nor, my responsibility.

I really like Emin Boztepe, I think he is a great man, and great martial artist. He's very idealistic, and I believe that his intentions are generally good natured. He has a good sense of humor, a great grasp of truth, whether in reguards to martial art techniques or life, and the ability to demonstrate his skill and knowledge in his art. I respect the man. And there aren't many "masters" that I respect and agree with in the arts.

I regards to getting off topic:
I apologize if I offended others with my opinions on martial arts. And this is a discussion that has plagued many boards on the net. There really seems to be a large divide between MMA and TMA, and people take each for their own reasons. We teach, so I am very interested and passionate about this subject. This issue is something me and my husband deal with on almost a daily basis while teaching and training. As we have trained and has experience with both, our opinions are not blind or biased without basis for our reasons.

It's been really educational for me to find out how people really feel on these issues in regards to teaching. Having these annoying discussions has given me more insight on what people want out of training, what they expect, what their pre-concieved notions are when coming to class, what their fears are, and thus, to make me a better teacher.

I'm human, I have opinions, views, and beliefs. Obviously they're not shared by others here, or are very unpopular. This is also good to know for the betterment of me, our school, and our students.

So, I thank you for letting me know where your opinions lie, and what you think of mine. I didn't write what my instructor/husband wanted me to say, for this issue truely vex's him in how people think about true self-defense. And again, I apologize if anyone was annoyed or offended. That was not my intention. My intention was to provoke thought and discussion.
 

bcbernam777

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ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Admin note:

To be honest, this same argument coming out of everything is tiresome and now a bit off-topic ... again.

If there is anything further to discuss on the original topic, then this is the final warning to do so before the thread is closed. For the ongoing debate on TMA vs MMA, take it somewhere else ... another thread or TGD.

G Ketchmark / shesulsa
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I agree however it makes it difficult when time after time a certain select few from the MMA camp seem to take it up on themselves to highjack every single thread in the WC section that may contain even the merest whiff of grappling/anti grappling to do one thing, ridicule the arts effectiveness. I dont see the WC set doing the same to the MMA section. And I sure as heck am not going to let someone denigrate WC on its own forum, if they want to run it down then they can take it to the MMA forum and ***** about it to their hearts content.
 
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