Sifu Emin Boztepe

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yipman_sifu

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Does anyone here know about why he left the EWTO?. I heard that Boztepe is considered to be one of the best street fighters in the world. I don't know why some Wing Chun Sifus and trainers have negative attitude whenever his name is mentioned. It is because he fought William Cheung, or because he challenged the Gracies. I think that Wing Chun people never issue challenges and fight only in actual situations. I think Boztepe was considered to be a fast desicion making trainer that was using Wing Chun in street challenges, that's why the Wing Chun community had negative looks at him. I personally thinks that he is an extremely good Sifu and a very good gentlman. Most people I crossed hands with that met with Boztepe says exactly opposite to what people says about him. They say he is a very good guy and respecting anyone regarding his fighting experience. What do you think about him?.
 

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Attacking William Cheung would be a big part of it. If memory serves his "challenge" to the Gracies was done in such a way that there was no doubt they wouldn't bother. And his Anti-grappling stuff is... well... silly.

Whatever his personality in person is, the way he has promoted himself and his image is not something worthy of much respect.
 
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Andrew Green said:
Attacking William Cheung would be a big part of it. If memory serves his "challenge" to the Gracies was done in such a way that there was no doubt they wouldn't bother. And his Anti-grappling stuff is... well... silly.

Whatever his personality in person is, the way he has promoted himself and his image is not something worthy of much respect.

Regarding the Gracie challenge. You looked into it as a guy trained in a Jujitsu way. You will definitely say that. The real fact is Boztepe issued a message of the challenge to be fought out of the ring that the Gracies are used to. They knew that the street is not to their favor where actual fights takes place. After all Boztepe's background reveals that he trained in Turkish Wrestling which is more harder than grappling in its concepts. My point is not that wheather Wing Chun or BJJ dominates, both are good and useful. I want to say that Boztepe is a fighter that no one can ever deny.

Regarding Cheung. He thaught that his Wing Chun was the only best, and always challenged the Leung Ting lineage. Cheung said that no one could defeat him, and Boztepe did one thing, proved that Cheung's Wing Chun has it weakness and that practise is the key to victory.
 

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yipman_sifu said:
Regarding the Gracie challenge. You looked into it as a guy trained in a Jujitsu way. You will definitely say that. The real fact is Boztepe issued a message of the challenge to be fought out of the ring that the Gracies are used to.

That's not the way the Gracie Challenge worked. The Gracie Challenge was anyone, anywhere, under no rules. That's how they made themselve famous.

My understanding is that after issuing the challenge they basically told him to "come on down" and he set up a bunch of other criteria to back out, without saying he backed out.
 

bcbernam777

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I am sorry but I dont respect the man only because of the manner in which the Cheung incident occoured as well as other incidents. To me he seems to be arrogant and thuggish, not my cup of tea as a person, as a martial artist the only way I could judge is to taste it for myself
 

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bcbernam777 said:
I am sorry but I dont respect the man only because of the manner in which the Cheung incident occoured as well as other incidents. To me he seems to be arrogant and thuggish, not my cup of tea as a person, as a martial artist the only way I could judge is to taste it for myself

Do you know him personally? What are your impressions of him?

Regarding the Gracie challenge, by now it is impossible to know with absolute certainty who said what, the internet is full of hearsay. But, AFAIK, the Gracies agreed to fight him in a police district and he refused, right?
 
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yipman_sifu

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WingChun Lawyer said:
Do you know him personally? What are your impressions of him?

Regarding the Gracie challenge, by now it is impossible to know with absolute certainty who said what, the internet is full of hearsay. But, AFAIK, the Gracies agreed to fight him in a police district and he refused, right?

Not sure of the saying Lawyer, but I heard that Boztepe challenged them at the begining and they refused. Later they wanted to accept his invitation and challenge him. Boztepe refused and said that his Sifus put him into this and he didn't want it.

That is not important. We know that Boztepe was very confident and was young. I personally loves Wing Chun but beleives that a challenge against the guy who uses this theory that states "The idea of jiu jitsu is to give the little guy, a chance to beat the big guy" is not easy. I cannot say that Boztepe would lose, but it is very hard to win someone like Royce once your down on the ground, because he is almost invinsible there.
 
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Regarding that the Gracies challenged the martial artist in their gym and won. That' true they won most of the matches but not all of them. I heard that the Gracies taped only the victories. That doesn't mean that they are bad. Royce was in the process of learning how to defeat opponents and how to overcome his weakness. Same goes to Wing chun about Beimo contests. Although master Wong won more than 100 matches without losing. Other of his companions lost to other styles in some of the matches.

Boztepe's challenge were not among these Gracies challenges as I beleive. It was a different kind of invitation by Boztepe to prove that WT was the best fighting form ever. I don't know why he wanted to do that, it seems that he didn't realized that his reputation went down after this and the old Cheung incident. Martial arts is not just being the best, but respect and admiration is what makes the man. It seems that Bozrepe realized this and appologized to the Gracies at the end.
 

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yipman_sifu said:
Boztepe's challenge were not among these Gracies challenges as I beleive. It was a different kind of invitation by Boztepe to prove that WT was the best fighting form ever. I don't know why he wanted to do that, it seems that he didn't realized that his reputation went down after this and the old Cheung incident. Martial arts is not just being the best, but respect and admiration is what makes the man. It seems that Bozrepe realized this and appologized to the Gracies at the end.

I imagine he wasn't expecting his reputation to go down ;)

Basically he stole the Gracie's idea and tried to use it for himself. The Gracie's made challenges that they where quite certain would never get accepted as well. The habit of challenging the current top boxer for example.

Boxer has nothing to gain, and a lot too loose. And chances are he would have as they trained to beat guys with those skills. Money also wouldn't be their and the boxing organizations would've stepped in and put a end to it even if he wanted to accept.

With Boztepe it came off as a big bluff, one that he would have lost. ANd as I'm quite sure they did accept and he wanted a bunch of silly conditions that made it pretty much impossible, it made things look worse for him.

Simple truth is if he wanted to fight one of them, he could have called them up, set a date and gone down to one of their schools. I'm pretty sure they would've accepted and we'd have seen it in the next Gracie in Action video.

Her made a big bluff, everyone called him on it. Basically that's all there is.
 
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Andrew Green said:
I imagine he wasn't expecting his reputation to go down ;)

Basically he stole the Gracie's idea and tried to use it for himself. The Gracie's made challenges that they where quite certain would never get accepted as well. The habit of challenging the current top boxer for example.

Boxer has nothing to gain, and a lot too loose. And chances are he would have as they trained to beat guys with those skills. Money also wouldn't be their and the boxing organizations would've stepped in and put a end to it even if he wanted to accept.

With Boztepe it came off as a big bluff, one that he would have lost. ANd as I'm quite sure they did accept and he wanted a bunch of silly conditions that made it pretty much impossible, it made things look worse for him.

Simple truth is if he wanted to fight one of them, he could have called them up, set a date and gone down to one of their schools. I'm pretty sure they would've accepted and we'd have seen it in the next Gracie in Action video.

Her made a big bluff, everyone called him on it. Basically that's all there is.

Everything is possible Andrew. After all whenever I heard about the Botepe/Gracie challenge from someone, I hear a different story. It seems that this story were discussed in a big way like you said although it wasn't worth it. That's why you cannot get the exact detail. Any how. Lets just close this issue and confess that Wing Chun and BJJ never lacked techniques, but it is the individual progress.
 

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If you do some research, this is what you'll find about why Sifu Boztepe left the EWTO. It consisted of two factors, money and a lack of trust. The way the international organization is setup is that the head of each region pays GM Leung Ting a cut, much like a franchise works. By the mid 90s Sifu Boztepe had attained a "superstar" status among the WT/martial arts world. This status was not undeserved as he was a top notch fighter and, by most accounts, defeated William Chung.

This is the part of the story that is subject to whose side you believe. According to Si-fu Kernspecht Sifu Boztepe was not paying his franchise fees and distancing himself from both Si-fu Kernspecht and GM Leung Ting. He was also teaching seminars in Germany and other places without the permission of the Heads of those regions. That is a no-no.

Sifu Boztepe claimed that GM Leung Ting and Si-fu Kernspecht had made a lot of money off of his name and that the EWTO would not be the size that it was without him, therefore he should have been afforded special privileges. He also claimed the GM Leung Ting and Si-fu Kernspecht got all Dynasty on him and tried setting up ambushes and destroying him. Either way there were irreconcilable differences and they parted ways. Hence EBMAS, which appears to be all the WT Sifu Boztepe learned up to that point and Latosa Escrima.

As far as the Gracie challenge goes, Sifu Boztepe felt that they were insulting many great martial artists, like Gene Lebell, and needed to be taught a lesson. He just didn't want to do it on their terms. They wanted him to come fight in the UFC, but he didn't want to fight through a bunch of people to get to the Gracies. They reiterated their open challenge and offered to fight at their school, but Sifu Boztepe didn't trust them. He countered by offering to fight in a neutral location with the press available to document it. All money made from the fight would go to charity. The Gracies refused this offer. Eventually both sides felt it wasn't worth their time and the matter faded to history.



Ben
 

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Flash25 said:
If you do some research, this is what you'll find about why Sifu Boztepe left the EWTO. It consisted of two factors, money and a lack of trust. The way the international organization is setup is that the head of each region pays GM Leung Ting a cut, much like a franchise works. By the mid 90s Sifu Boztepe had attained a "superstar" status among the WT/martial arts world. This status was not undeserved as he was a top notch fighter and, by most accounts, defeated William Chung.

This is the part of the story that is subject to whose side you believe. According to Si-fu Kernspecht Sifu Boztepe was not paying his franchise fees and distancing himself from both Si-fu Kernspecht and GM Leung Ting. He was also teaching seminars in Germany and other places without the permission of the Heads of those regions. That is a no-no.

Sifu Boztepe claimed that GM Leung Ting and Si-fu Kernspecht had made a lot of money off of his name and that the EWTO would not be the size that it was without him, therefore he should have been afforded special privileges. He also claimed the GM Leung Ting and Si-fu Kernspecht got all Dynasty on him and tried setting up ambushes and destroying him. Either way there were irreconcilable differences and they parted ways. Hence EBMAS, which appears to be all the WT Sifu Boztepe learned up to that point and Latosa Escrima.

As far as the Gracie challenge goes, Sifu Boztepe felt that they were insulting many great martial artists, like Gene Lebell, and needed to be taught a lesson. He just didn't want to do it on their terms. They wanted him to come fight in the UFC, but he didn't want to fight through a bunch of people to get to the Gracies. They reiterated their open challenge and offered to fight at their school, but Sifu Boztepe didn't trust them. He countered by offering to fight in a neutral location with the press available to document it. All money made from the fight would go to charity. The Gracies refused this offer. Eventually both sides felt it wasn't worth their time and the matter faded to history.



Ben

mmmm not what I have heard but any how who the hell knows, it just starts getting sickening when this ego stuff starts getting out of control, I mean these men do love to blow their own trumpet and to a certain extent think they are invinciple, I read a post from another post of someone who went along to challenge EB, who refused him because he (eb) was so good he would defeat him and make him look bad in front of everyone else, this smacks to me of ego, something there is a little to much of even amongst the so called "masters" of today, (and I do use the term very litely). People often mistake arrogence with self confidence, they are not the same thing, From what I have read seen and heard this is his bread and butter. There is a saying that Bruce Lee said that I use over and over again, i always keep this saying in mind, and many of these so called masters, including Boztepe would do well to keep in mind:

"THE GREATEST MISTAKE OF A MARTIAL ARTIST IS TO ANTICIPATE THE OUTCOME OF COMBAT, YOU MUST NOT BE THINKING OF WHETHER WIN OR LOSE, BUT LET NATURE TAKE ITS COURSE, AND IN THE PROPER TIME YOUR TOOLS WILL STRIKE"
 

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Andrew Green said:
Attacking William Cheung would be a big part of it. If memory serves his "challenge" to the Gracies was done in such a way that there was no doubt they wouldn't bother. And his Anti-grappling stuff is... well... silly.

Whatever his personality in person is, the way he has promoted himself and his image is not something worthy of much respect.

The attack on William Cheung is what soured me on the man. However, enough time has passed that I'm willing to give him a second chance. He was young at the time and we all make stupid mistakes.
 
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Flash25 said:
If you do some research, this is what you'll find about why Sifu Boztepe left the EWTO. It consisted of two factors, money and a lack of trust. The way the international organization is setup is that the head of each region pays GM Leung Ting a cut, much like a franchise works. By the mid 90s Sifu Boztepe had attained a "superstar" status among the WT/martial arts world. This status was not undeserved as he was a top notch fighter and, by most accounts, defeated William Chung.

This is the part of the story that is subject to whose side you believe. According to Si-fu Kernspecht Sifu Boztepe was not paying his franchise fees and distancing himself from both Si-fu Kernspecht and GM Leung Ting. He was also teaching seminars in Germany and other places without the permission of the Heads of those regions. That is a no-no.

Sifu Boztepe claimed that GM Leung Ting and Si-fu Kernspecht had made a lot of money off of his name and that the EWTO would not be the size that it was without him, therefore he should have been afforded special privileges. He also claimed the GM Leung Ting and Si-fu Kernspecht got all Dynasty on him and tried setting up ambushes and destroying him. Either way there were irreconcilable differences and they parted ways. Hence EBMAS, which appears to be all the WT Sifu Boztepe learned up to that point and Latosa Escrima.

As far as the Gracie challenge goes, Sifu Boztepe felt that they were insulting many great martial artists, like Gene Lebell, and needed to be taught a lesson. He just didn't want to do it on their terms. They wanted him to come fight in the UFC, but he didn't want to fight through a bunch of people to get to the Gracies. They reiterated their open challenge and offered to fight at their school, but Sifu Boztepe didn't trust them. He countered by offering to fight in a neutral location with the press available to document it. All money made from the fight would go to charity. The Gracies refused this offer. Eventually both sides felt it wasn't worth their time and the matter faded to history.



Ben

Go to charity. That's true. Boztepe wrote exactly the letter considering the charity issue and said that he wanted to check the real telents in the street where real fighting usually takes place. Some WT trainers said that Boztepe's idea was to prove that fighting in a ring or your place (Gracie Gym) is not a great idea, fighting in an unknown place would be better. Well that's the whole idea.
 

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If you do some research, this is what you'll find about why Sifu Boztepe left the EWTO. It consisted of two factors, money and a lack of trust. The way the international organization is setup is that the head of each region pays GM Leung Ting a cut, much like a franchise works. By the mid 90s Sifu Boztepe had attained a "superstar" status among the WT/martial arts world. This status was not undeserved as he was a top notch fighter and, by most accounts, defeated William Chung.

This is the part of the story that is subject to whose side you believe. According to Si-fu Kernspecht Sifu Boztepe was not paying his franchise fees and distancing himself from both Si-fu Kernspecht and GM Leung Ting. He was also teaching seminars in Germany and other places without the permission of the Heads of those regions. That is a no-no.

Sifu Boztepe claimed that GM Leung Ting and Si-fu Kernspecht had made a lot of money off of his name and that the EWTO would not be the size that it was without him, therefore he should have been afforded special privileges. He also claimed the GM Leung Ting and Si-fu Kernspecht got all Dynasty on him and tried setting up ambushes and destroying him. Either way there were irreconcilable differences and they parted ways. Hence EBMAS, which appears to be all the WT Sifu Boztepe learned up to that point and Latosa Escrima.
Ben

Yup, that pretty much summs it up! Nasty, nasty politics, big egos, and dirty tricks. lol!
 

DeLamar.J

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I always thought that William had an open challenge to other Wing Chun students. If he was beaten, that doesnt make the guy who one a bad guy.
 

DeLamar.J

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That's not the way the Gracie Challenge worked. The Gracie Challenge was anyone, anywhere, under no rules. That's how they made themselve famous.

My understanding is that after issuing the challenge they basically told him to "come on down" and he set up a bunch of other criteria to back out, without saying he backed out.

I know people personally who were refused by the Gracie family because the fight had no rules. They have certain rules that they play by, or they wont fight. I'm sure they would fight some street thugs with no rules, but I know they refuse challenges from reputable kung fu masters in no rules fighting.
 

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All over the web people talk about these two incidents.
I've watched some of Emin's interviews and before I heard from his mouth his side of the storys my opinion of him was very similar to those here.
He did seem arrogant and such. But my opinion has changed now that I've seen and heard new facts on the situations.

The Chueng fight: Chueng place public challenges in magazines and such that he was the best, his wing chun the best. He placed an open challenge to anyone who thought could beat him. Emin obliged. He knew his weakness, and took him to the ground. Thus, he won. Emin's comments on this issue were very diplomatic, and reasonable. He was young and idealistic. Bruce Lee is a very stong influence on him at that time. Bruce Lee did very similar challenges when he was alive, and was criticized and sometimes not well liked. They both are very idealistic, and honest in their dealings with others. This sometimes isn't received well by others, and seen as arrogance, or threatening.

The Gracies: These guys have great manipulation of the media, strong corporate sponsorship, money, and they know how to work it to their advantage. The same goes here, they offered an open challenge to all. But their not delivering what they advertise.
They say they fight without rules, this is not so. When they go to a challenge match they go as a large group. I see this as a type of "gang" mentality. Very aggressive, and unfair to the challenger who usually has little to no backing in comparision.
What Emin didn't like was their arrogance in the "way" that they challenge other martial artists. Again, he is idealistic, and wishes others to be respectful to others. He was angry about what they were doing and accepted their open challenge. He wrote to the owners of UFC and stated this and that he wanted to challenge Gracie. They wanted him to go through the UFC rules and rank up to the champion, Gracie. He did not wish do this, think. UFC would have made ALOT of money off Emin going through their "system" and he wasn't playing that game.
The Gracies responded and invited him to their school. Again, that would not be a smart move for anyone. They hold all the cards, you don't fight your opponent on their "turf", with their "rules". This is what Emin was trying to get them away from, their comfort zone.
He recomended a place that was neutral to both parties with media there to fairly document the outcome, no mats, no rules. The Gracies declined, stating that Emin was being difficult and questioned his integrity, courage, etc. very rude.
This all eventually became a "deal breaker" because neither side could agree on fight terms. Then the Gracies sent their lawyers after Emin and he backed off the entire subject when the Gracie's threated to sue. So, he dropped it.
Check out his interviews.

Enough of that now.
As for leaving EWTO. There was many reasons for him leaving. The Chueng fight had nothing to do with it. At the time it just benifeted EWTO. The Gracies didn't have anything to do with it.
He left because him and Leung Ting were very very close, and he was betrayed by those he trusted and respected. This was all due to money, ego, and such, but not on Emins part as far as I can tell. He was of valid rank to teach and do what he wanted independently. These men did try to set him up and "destroy" him. He was warned by his escrima friend that they had several men waiting to "jump" him in public and if he went well... he'd win and he'd go to jail, look a bully and bad person. So, he didn't show up to the banquet. The anti-grappling he incorporated was an issue. It was new to WT and helped to take it to another level. Leung Ting wanted to charge every WT sifu big money to learn it. Emin did not. He wanted all WT practicioners to be able to learn it reguardless of money. All money politics.
Leung Ting couldn't discredit him publicly so he took away much of his students and schools. Offering students "sifu" that weren't of the level to be ready of it. Basically promoting people as a bribe to leave Emin while he split from Leung Ting's organization. This worked quite well. And Emin was hurting financially, emotionally, and as a teacher and martial artist.

Personally, my point of view on the entire mess is that these politics are what really hurt the arts. All arts in general.
People are made feel like they have to take "sides" on issues that really have nothing to do with them.
These are human beings, Emin and Lueng Ting, and because they are in such a public spotlight people are creully judgemental of everything they do and say. Personally, I concider both men, just men. And don't base my life, training, or philosophys on either one.
But, as a Woman I find that this environment is very detrimental to all, and see why there aren't many female sifus. I would like to become good enough to be a sifu one day, but I really don't see this as practical for many reasons. I see these behaviours as a "boys club" as do many other women, and I wouldn't play these games the way their being played.
My husband teaches me, and he's a Level 5 technician. I can trust him to teach me right, and to do right by me. If I were to train under another man I would not have this respect and trust for there is too much politicing and self interest involved in what many teachers do. Not only because he's my husband, but because he's my best friend, and a man that see's what is going on here and has seperated himself from all of it.

Great spirits have always encountered violent opposition from mediocre minds. - Albert Einstien
 

Rook

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I know people personally who were refused by the Gracie family because the fight had no rules. They have certain rules that they play by, or they wont fight. I'm sure they would fight some street thugs with no rules, but I know they refuse challenges from reputable kung fu masters in no rules fighting.

This is simply and utterly false. The Gracie have no-rules change that was and is open to anyone. They have never declined to fight under no-rules conditions.
 
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