Shawn Obasi & Emin Boztepe friendly Chi-sau

Anarax

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But then again, Shawn's approach worked for Jay and Silent Bob. Or is it Jay and Silent Bob's approach worked for Shawn?
 

KPM

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Did it? I see someone with bad "Chi Sau" trying desperately to prove he has good Chi Sau by not doing Chi Sau. Can you honestly watch that video and say Shawn has great structure and a strong root? If not, did he prove his point?

---Look. This is not difficult. Chi Sau most certainly includes a "non-cooperative" phase....Gor Sau. And it isn't hard to tell when someone has something more than just a friendly cooperative roll in mind. And someone that has trash talked as much as Kevin Gledhill had about how superior WSLVT was to everything else should have had no problem sensing that and stepping up his game. But he didn't. So yes, that certainly proved something. If you think Obasi's skills were not good, then what does that say about Kevin Gledhill's skills when Obasi handled him so easily? Again, I'm not defending Obasi's actions. But you certainly are coming across as defending Kevin Gledhill after everything I've told you about him.
 

Anarax

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And someone that has trash talked as much as Kevin Gledhill had about how superior WSLVT was to everything else should have had no problem sensing that and stepping up his game.
The devil is in the details. I can't speak about Kevin's comments for I haven't seen them myself. There's nothing on Google about Kevin's comments that I can find.

So yes, that certainly proved something. If you think Obasi's skills were not good, then what does that say about Kevin Gledhill's skills when Obasi handled him so easily?
It says that someone who is going 100% in "Chi Sau" can move someone else who is limiting their movements to the drill. Shawn was shoving so hard he almost feel over because of his poor balance. Kevin critiquing Shawn's structure and root isn't unfounded. Shawn approaches it as "if I beat him his opinion is invalid". It's the old tactic of attacking the person instead of addressing what they say. Opposed to Shawn stepping back and analyzing his own structure and root.

But you certainly are coming across as defending Kevin Gledhill after everything I've told you about him.
I'm not defending Kevin. However, I can't judge a man for comments that he supposedly made without seeing them. There's very little info on Kevin thus I can't speak of his behavior. Shawn on the other hand has posted numerous videos that are consistent with his behavior in the video with Kevin. Meaning, there's more information to go on to establish a pattern of behavior with Shawn.

In summary I see no excuse for Shawn's behavior. He's hates criticism and threw a temper tantrum when the fight promoter respectfully told him he wasn't letting him in(M1 Video). I stand by my comment that he's a bully with something to prove. If you find his behavior acceptable then that's fine, but I don't. I think his type of egotistical mentality is hurting Martial Arts.
 

Nobody Important

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Reading through this thread gave me a migraine, lol.

So I'm going to add my 2 cents.

Intentions aside, from either party involved, what constitutes good Chi Sau let alone Chi Sau in general? In my understanding it can be many things, depending on the agreed "terms" of the engagement. Should Chi Sau be confined to the pre-defined parameters of the platform it's being conducted on, or, can change, variation and alteration of the platform be included and it still be considered Chi Sau? Isn't one of the maxims "If there is no bridge, create a bridge, then destroy the bridge" and another "When the hands break free, rush forward"? Who's rules state that Chi Sau practice has to be performed in a certain manner, such as "No going outside the platform", "No using muscle strength" or "No heavy pressure", "It's not a competition" etc? Without knowing the agreed upon, or lack thereof, rules who is to say anyone is doing the "Chi Sau" wrong?

The moment you challenge someone, it is no longer just Chi Sau. Chi Sau is a concept taught through various platforms, its a collective term. For example, if you challenge me to "Chi Sau" and you assume the Rolling Hands platform, Im not reciprocating, Im choosing a platform Im more comfortable with, like Circling Hands. If you insist on Rolling Hands I'm assuming your intentions are to prove how much better you are than me. Then it isnt Chi Sau its a fight, expect anything cause I'm coming at you to win.

The very nature of the Chi Sau exercise is competition, to understand how pressure and strength are used and how to effectively counter those forces via sensitivity, pressure, strength, endurance etc. It doesnt mean that youre trying to take someones head off, but at the same time, real pressure is needed to see whether or not something is going to do work as advertised under real world conditions.

In an altercation your advisory isn't going to give you the courtesy of fighting to your strengths, they will be fighting to theirs. You have to deal with it as effectively as you can. If this means muscling your way through, grabbing, pulling, breaking free, punching etc. who's to say that's "Wrong" that's not "Chi Sau"?

The whole idea that not using any strength, staying within a particular plaform, not grabbing or muscling is rediculous and counterproductive IMO to how a real fight is conducted. While it may be true that Chi Sau Isn't fighting, this doesn't mean it shouldn't emulate real world interaction. Your opponent will not dumb down their aggression, strength or strategy to cater to your comfort level and skill set. Varied pressure is required to make Chi Sau an effective exercise in understanding the dynamics involved in an altercation.

Chi Sau has various platforms and intensity levels, these teach different aspects about things like recovery, sensitivity, pressure, strength, neutralization, escape etc. It, IMO, cannot be confined to a singular platform. Some people are really good at Rolling Hands, some at Circling Hands some at Push Hands (Yes, some branches use this platform) others at Separate Hands. When combined they create a sphere of possible movement. All teach certain aspects, but one alone does not teach them all, and all are needed to understand how the concept of Chi Sau can be utilized.

So when I see these so called "Chi Sau" matches and people trying to justify this or that, condemn this or that and make comments like that person's Wing Chun is poor, I laugh. It isn't a realistic interpretation of any physical encounter and definately not the purpose of "Chi Sau" let alone a litmus to ones physical prowess in a realistic fight scenario. It's a platforms based d!ck measuring contest. The ritual is antiquated and potentially dangerous to the adept studying it as an interpretation of fighting, because it is a false representation of how an actual fight is really conducted.

Why don't y'all just spar? It's way more productive, will give accurate measurements as to where you are in your training and definitively prove whom bested whom. Leave Chi Sau on the practice floor where it belongs with all the other drills.

Rant over.
 
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KPM

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^^^^^^ To further your point.....here is a post that Mario Poljak made recently in the FB forum:

ABOUT CHI SAU

They was a several topics about chi sau...what is chi sau??
Isn't chi sau "the heart of Wing Chun Kuen"??
Yes, it could be said that is the case depending on your understanding or view point...so what is chi sau...method of techniques training or method of fighting or method of training various body mechanics in wing chun with partner?? when someone say that chi sau will not save you in a real fight, need to say that method of the chi sau that nearly everyone is familiar with, which is actually called Puhn/Poon Sau or rolling with the hands with exchange of some techniques with partner
is very limited chi sau method. We are dealing with only three techniques here (Tan Sau, Bong Sau, and Fuk Sau), and we are standing in a static position, and we exchange in such a position few more techniques and punches what can be limited in practical usage especially under the pressure...But in the manner of different body mechanics, actually have many forms of chi sau. So many, in fact, that can't even list them all.
Here are a few of the versions of chi sau in no particular order and few words about different layers/levels in chi sau and their chinese names...it is hard to say what can be different layers in chi sau, but under this term we can consider different method of practice and training in chi sau....different levels in chi sau we can apply only on understanding of body and motion mechanics and how much is someone trained in chi sau....here is the list of different methods of training/layers of chi sau with chinese names....
Poon Sau - drilling the basic double arm rolling mechanics of the Tan sau, Bong sau, and Fuk Sau.
Bai Ying Chi Sau - Irregular structure sticking hands(here is meaning on loosing the balance and regain lost balance with body mechanics)..
Bong An Chi Sau - Blindfolded sticky hands
Baat Sin Choi Chi Sau - 8 Immortals table sticky hands for demonstrations
Chi Gok Chi Sau / Ji Gok Chi Sau / Gee Gok Chi Sau - Light sticky hands
Chi Sau Chi Gerk - Sticking hands with sticking legs exercise
Dan Chi Sau - Single sticking hands exercise
Gor Dan Chi Sau - Attacks in single sticky hands
Gu Deng Chi Sau - Sitting sticky hands
Gung Lik Chi Sau - Heavy sticky hands to develop power--training exercise for developing power controling...
Haan Kiu Chi Sau - Walking on the bridge chi sau
Joi Yin Chi Sau - Following the shadow in chi sau; a type of chasing chi sau with lot of different stepping motions and moving in all directions...
Kum La/Qin Na Chi Sau - Joint locking techniques applied in chi sau
Lay Wai Chi Sau - Leaving the gap sticky hands
Look Sau/Luk Sau/Gung Lik Chi Sau - Heavy sticky hands like combat exercise..
Lut Sau Chi Sau - Attacking from man sau position and immediately going into sticky hands
Mah Bo Chi Sau - Moving sticking hands
Man Sau Chi Sau - Asking hand within sticky hands...sticking hands only with man sau movement...one pracitioner make punches and other make man sau movement only while sticiking opponent's hands....
San Sau Chi Sau - Slow attacks in sticky hands
Seung Chi Sau - Double sticky hands exercise
Seung Yan Chi Sau - Double sticky hands with three people
Seung Yan Dan Chi Sau - Single sticky hands with three people
Seung Yan Jou Wai Chi Sau - Moving sticky hands with three people
Sor Sau Chi Sau - Trapping sticky hands
Toi Dit Chi Sau - Takedowns in chi sau
So, what is chi sau again?? The answer is; it depends on the chi sau what someone train....
Can training chi sau help you survive in a real fight?? Yes, but only if you understand the whole story of what chi sau is.
If you think, standing still and rolling tan/bong/fuk with exchange of few punches with partner, is going to somehow magically defeat a real opponent, than you are in a wrong idea about body mechanics and fighting body abilities...
If you already understood that there are many forms of chi sau, and that it is a critical part of Wing Chun training, what train various body mechanics what you can use on best way in fight, than you understand your body abilities and your fighting abilities...
The primary training tool for pratical usage is Look Sau, which is one of the many forms of chi sau. If used properly, you can find that look sau can be effective tool for training people to become truly effective fighters in a much shorter time span than other available options. It is far more dynamic and can include all techniques. You are learning proper structure, footwork, center line and central/combat plane theory and application, sensitivity and relaxation under stress, real time problem solving, techniques, situational awareness, and more, all at the same time. If done properly it is not so overwhelming as one might think, yet the rewards are great.
So will chi sau save you in a fight??
That depends on which chi saus you are referring to.
They all have their purposes in training excellence, just be aware that there is much more to "chi sau" than you may realize.
 

LFJ

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This again... :facepalm:

I especially find it absurd that he challenges Kevin to a drill.

That would be absurd, and it is absurd to think thats what happened.

Competitive chi-sau is an absurd thought in the VT Kevin does, and is not something he would ever engage in.

In reality, Kevin had been sharing some drills with Shawn, explaining his style. Then it came Shawns turn to show his.

Hence, Kevin was not even attempting to counterattack, and was just allowing Shawn to do his thing.

Shawn then triumphantly posted the footage as a challenge, and people like KPM, who had had their egos bruised by Kevin, jumped all over it, and they ignore the truth of the situation because it feels better to have had a win, as embarrassing a win it is to claim.

Kevin even said in the end "this isn't Chi Sau" and looked confused.

He said this isnt our chi-sau, contrasting their approaches, since they had only been taking turns to show the other person how they do things.

KPM still argues that Kevin should have sensed Shawns intentions and stepped it up against him, essentially turning chi-sau into a fight, which is silly and again, not something Kevin would ever engage in. He was right to just stop.

I would have responded in much the same way as Kevin, only stopping it much sooner, but Kevin was respectfully giving Shawn his turn.

The whole thing is really as simple as that. Those who ignore the facts of the situation and continue to dishonesty treat this as some sort of challenge or proof of anything to do with fighting skill are doing so to spite Kevin for his previously abrasive posting style.
 

KPM

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KPM still argues that Kevin should have sensed Shawns intentions and stepped it up against him, essentially turning chi-sau into a fight, which is silly and again, not something Kevin would ever engage in. He was right to just stop.

Well, welcome back LFJ!

Given that Kevin's style is WSLPBVT, and that in nearly every video posted of PB he is doing Chi Sau that is not just a simple cooperative roll.....but rather a video of him blasting his partner and often chasing him back into a wall....why is it that Kevin was unable to do the same kind of thing with Shawn?

Bayer actually blasted Obasi in this one. Why didn't Kevin do that?


Bayer bounces these guys all over the place. Why didn't Kevin do this to Shawn?


And while no one is trying to hurt anyone here, I think there is certainly a "competitive" element involved.



So if Kevin was as good as he made himself out to be, and WSLPBVT was so superior to everyone else's Wing Chun as he made it out to be, why was it that Obasi handled him so easily and he couldn't do to Obasi what Bayer is able to do in each of the videos above? No, in reality, Kevin had been running his mouth and insulting many people and when it came down to it couldn't back up what he had been saying. I'm pretty sure much the same thing would happen with you, that is if you ever had the guts to actually let someone video you! ;)
 

LFJ

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why is it that Kevin was unable to do the same kind of thing with Shawn?

You assume inability, while Kevin did not even attempt to interrupt Shawn while he was showing his method. Thats called respect. It would be different if an unsuccessful attempt had been made.

Bayer actually blasted Obasi in this one. Why didn't Kevin do that?

Shawn was attending a seminar and being instructed. It was not a match, and not what Kevin and Shawn were doing.

Bayer bounces these guys all over the place. Why didn't Kevin do this to Shawn?

It was Shawns turn to show his method. You keep ignoring that. Kevin offered him his arms to roll with, allowing Shawn to do his thing, and nothing more. If someone wants to show you how they do a drill and you purposely dont play along, that would be quite disrespectful.

And while no one is trying to hurt anyone here, I think there is certainly a "competitive" element involved.

That is your misconception, having never studied WSLVT.

No, in reality, Kevin had been running his mouth and insulting many people and when it came down to it couldn't back up what he had been saying.

Just like I said, ignoring the facts and trying to turn this into something its not clearly comes down to spiting Kevin for past grievances.

I'm pretty sure much the same thing would happen with you, that is if you ever had the guts to actually let someone video you! ;)

Im back on the west coast. Come at me, bro! :walkingdead: Ill chi-sau battle you to the death, homie...
 

dudewingchun

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You assume inability, while Kevin did not even attempt to interrupt Shawn while he was showing his method. Thats called respect. It would be different if an unsuccessful attempt had been made.



Shawn was attending a seminar and being instructed. It was not a match, and not what Kevin and Shawn were doing.



It was Shawns turn to show his method. You keep ignoring that. Kevin offered him his arms to roll with, allowing Shawn to do his thing, and nothing more. If someone wants to show you how they do a drill and you purposely dont play along, that would be quite disrespectful.



That is your misconception, having never studied WSLVT.



Just like I said, ignoring the facts and trying to turn this into something its not clearly comes down to spiting Kevin for past grievances.



Im back on the west coast. Come at me, bro! :walkingdead: Ill chi-sau battle you to the death, homie...

Excuses.
Kevin talked himself up a lot then looked bad.
 

LFJ

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Excuses.
Kevin talked himself up a lot then looked bad.

Looked bad at what?

He was playing Shawns demo dummy, allowing Shawn to show his thing. What exactly was he supposed to look good at?
 

Anarax

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Many martial art drills have levels of advancement once the student progresses to a certain point. Depending on the purpose of the drill, it can have pressure, aliveness and even resistance. The key question is what is the drill for? There are MA drills that are done with full resistance, conditioning drills done at full speed and takedown defense drills done with full force. Students must develop a rudimentary understanding of the techniques, form and purpose of these drills before going all in when practicing them. However, there are other drills that aren't meant to be done with full resistance nor "free-play". There are drills that develop sensitivity, flow, finesse, dexterity, speed and agility. This is where a lot of confusion comes into play.

On a large scale to a reasonable degree we can say there aren't any "right" or "wrong" styles. However, with drills we can't all be right. If a student is doing a punching drill by kicking the heavy bag they're not developing punches. It doesn't mean their training is completely unproductive, but they're not training what they think they're training. Sensitivity is a crucial skill in many styles of martial arts, especially Wing Chun considering it's range. However, when some Wing Chun schools incorporate techniques like flying knees, kicks and double leg takedowns into Chi-Sau it detracts from the sensitivity development. This can stem from lineage, premature advancement, lack of understanding, etc. Unfortunately, it's prevalent in a lot of Wing Chun today.

You have a lot of instructors/students that practice this half chi-sau half sparring drill without actually sparring and without a more sensitivity focused chi-sau. This creates an enormous skill gap that leaves a lot students ill-prepared. Yes, Chi Sau has pressure and a certain degree of aliveness, but that doesn't automatically make it a free for all in which anything is allowed. That's what sparring is for, another crucial training component lacking in a lot of Wing Chun schools.
 

WahFist

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WahFist -- Welcome to MartialTalk! Thanks for the input. I hope you hang around and continue to contribute. :)

BTW are you still actively training WT?
I haven't trained WT for ages. (Every once in a while I still do forms, footwork, and hit a standing bag sometimes). I just rolled BJJ again with an old training partner that also hadn't been at it for a while. I am thinking about going back to a WT class.
 

WahFist

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WahFist -- Welcome to MartialTalk! Thanks for the input. I hope you hang around and continue to contribute. :)

BTW are you still actively training WT?

Two other fun facts from the early 90s in LA.

!) Will Parker (a super laid back genuinely nice guy) who was a high-level WT (back then maybe 2nd TG) teacher from San Antonio would also come to LA sometimes to train when Sifu Emin was around. Will was really good and could effortlessly destroy anyone in our training group. But, Emin could make him look like a student at day 1 off the street. Will told us about how Emin would practice dealing with hard chain punches by standing with his back to a wall (sometimes Will's refrigerator as I recall) and then have Will come at him with chain punches as hard and fast as Will could. Will told us he hated the drill because it never ended well for Will.

2) I also got to watch Emin and Remy Latosa practice with sticks one day. I remember Remy was showing Emin about generating "short power" at closer distances with the stick. I did not really understand. But was cool to see, especially as Emin was the student.
 

geezer

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Two other fun facts from the early 90s in LA.

I also got to watch Emin and Remy Latosa practice with sticks one day. I remember Remy was showing Emin about generating "short power" at closer distances with the stick. I did not really understand. But was cool to see, especially as Emin was the student.

Ageed! Rene and Emin are both awesome in their skill. And I find that Rene's Escrima complements WT really well ...especially Emin's interpretation of WT. BTW that's Rene Latosa (not Remy Presas)! :)
 

yak sao

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Ageed! Rene and Emin are both awesome in their skill. And I find that Rene's Escrima complements WT really well ...especially Emin's interpretation of WT. BTW that's Rene Latosa (not Remy Presas)! :)

Those guys are definitely in the top 1% of skill level
 

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