Sifu Emin Boztepe

[Journeyman]

I know you didn't say it was from the movie. People on other websites had said that even before you had posted the link here.

 

[Si-Je]

oh!
well, that was totally NOT my intention! But your right about people's conjecture and speculation. I say one thing, people read another totally. I've come across this on a couple of different boards. It is a good example of the + and -'s of the web, and just when people talk to eachother as well.
Misunderstandings are so easily come by. I didn't know Emin and Bas has issues because of this sort of thing either. Was that pretty recent?
I guess it doesn't matter much, it just goes to show the power of communication and the internet, media, etc.

 

[Journeyman]

From the comments on the newsgroups, it looks like the Rutten/Boztepe thing was going on around 1999. The link to the interview with Bas doesn't work anymore, but here's the relevant excerpt: Fredrik : There were talks about a challenge fight between you and Wing Tsun-fighter Emin Boztepe after an interview you did with me for Action Sports. How did it end? Bas Rutten : I have been to a seminar from Emin with a writer from Black Belt, an attorney, a lawyer and Marco Ruas. I told him that I was there because I heard that he challenged me on the street (which was of course not true) and that because of that I was there to fight him. He told me that he never challenged me but that I challenged him. I said that that was not true either because I didn't know him. Anyway, we went up to his office and there we called the guy who wrote everything in the magazine and we found out that this guy made up the whole thing and blew some things up too. Emin said that he wouldn't have a problem fighting me but that it had to be for a right reason. And he is right, if he didn't say but somebody else made it up like he said, then there is no reason to fight.

 

[Cthulhu]

I've got my opinions on the Boztepe/Cheung incident, but that was a long time ago.

I don't give a rat's about Boztepe/Gracie.

The Boztepe/EWTO thing is just friggin' politics, so a waste of time.

But someone way back on page 2 or 3 of this thread compared Boztepe to Bruce Lee. Now that's just stupid.

Cthulhu

 

[SilatFan]

“why would he want to? lol! I think you've missed the point of the Gracie and Emin conflict. Besides, he'd just get his ear bit off! ”
--The point is you wrote Royce was hiding behind the UFC when the UFC's response to Emin's request to face Royce was for Emin to compete before he faced the "champion."




“He's already fought these types of GJJ people, friend. no big deal”.
--If he's already faced these "GJJ types" and it's "no big deal" why not just face an actual Gracie? Also, if facing a "GJJ type" (however vague that description is) is valid enough to prove that WT vs GJJ why is it that a specific person, with a documented lineage in WT competing in the UFC is a inadequate demonstration of WT vs GJJ?



“And as for the "bystanders" at this tournament, they were all "masters" of their art, black belts under the others guy system. Not exactly bystanders. It was a "masters tournament" remember? “
--Look up the word. It has nothing to do with your MA rank.




Regarding the Emin/W. Cheung video:
“I'll try to hit on a couple of points here. Emin was a Turkish wrestler at the time of the Cheung fight. people keep refering to this fight as a demonstration of his "grappling skill". It is in a way, but Turkish wrestling is NOT "grappling" so to compare it to such is ignorance.”
-- Huh? There is a referee, they attempt to pin their opponent, they have a uniform (leather pants), it’s the national sport of Turkey, there is a national tournament held every July, they start standing, clinch and progress from there. Please explain the difference between grappling and Turkish wrestling.




“If a video of a pit fight isn't good enough for you to see the effectiveness of WT then, You seem to base alot of your opinions on the outcomes of UFC fights. sad.”
--The point is that you continue to reference a video of two men with unsubstantiated skill sets and experience (one a WT guy and one a “grappler”) as “proof” but when two KNOWN individuals with KNOWN skill sets and KNOWN lineages (Emin/Cheung) get into a fight and it’s caught on video that’s not as valid a piece of evidence?



“The guys that were claiming to be VT or WT in the early UFC years I really don't care about or am very impressed. I never saw them use a hint of Wing Chun in their fights”.
--How is it that they (in the UFC) are just “claiming” to be WT practitioners but a guy (in a nightclub tough man/”Pit Fighter” video) is most certainly a grappler?




“…. if that guy actually got the WT fighter to the ground in that pit fight the crowd would have just stomped his head most likely like they did when he was taken to the ground.”
--Never mind me watching too much MMA. Someone’s been watching too many Steven Segal B movies.




“Grappling, is it EVER a really good idea in the street? That is the true question.”
--If you want to know how to get back up, yes it is. If you want to learn how NOT to be held down and repeatedly struck by someone with only 2 years of high school wrestling, yes. Otherwise, no.

Regarding Matt Hughes beating Royce Gracie and what that has to do with this thread:
“It proves my point that no matter how many times they lose, people still think the Gracies are the "best".“
--Who wrote that? Besides we all know Emin is the best. He’d beat those gracies in a heartbeat but they are to afraid to fight him (you, me and Delmar.j know that). I mean who have they ever fought? Emin fought that older, smaller WC/WT guy. Now that’s putting it on the line!



“Royce has lost a couple of times before that fight. His fighters have been beaten on many occasions. But, you never see video of those fights. No, darlin' they only post videos where they win.”
-- uhm, Yes Royce has lost before Matt Huges. Who exactly does Royce train for MMA? And I believe that I’ve seen GJJ/BJJ practitioner lose before in MMA. Are you saying the UFC, Pride, KOTC and the like edit out all these loses?



“It's all propoganda to me, media blather and playing to the masses to get what they want. money.”
--You mean like putting a video on the internet of a younger, bigger Turkish guy beating up a smaller, older Chinese guy? I hear ya!



“I choose not to play those games, and make others that do play them wealthy, neither does Emin”.
--You got that one right!

 

[bcbernam777]

this thread is done man

 

[Si-Je]

“why would he want to? lol! I think you've missed the point of the Gracie and Emin conflict. Besides, he'd just get his ear bit off! ”
--The point is you wrote Royce was hiding behind the UFC when the UFC's response to Emin's request to face Royce was for Emin to compete before he faced the "champion."

He is. He's fought others without the UFC prelims.

Also, if facing a "GJJ type" (however vague that description is) is valid enough to prove that WT vs GJJ why is it that a specific person, with a documented lineage in WT competing in the UFC is a inadequate demonstration of WT vs GJJ?

Documented lineage will not win the fight for you. When people get hung up on this lineage thing makes me feel like we're talking about dog petigree. lol!

“-- Huh? There is a referee, they attempt to pin their opponent, they have a uniform (leather pants), it’s the national sport of

Turkey, there is a national tournament held every July, they start standing, clinch and progress from there. Please explain the difference between grappling and Turkish wrestling.

Told you, I don't know anything about turkish wrestling, to compare it would be folly. I just know it's not grappling.

--The point is that you continue to reference a video of two men with unsubstantiated skill sets and experience (one a WT guy and one a “grappler”) as “proof” but when two KNOWN individuals with KNOWN skill sets and KNOWN lineages (Emin/Cheung) get into a fight and it’s caught on video that’s not as valid a piece of evidence?

Evidence to what? That two WT/WC guys got in a fight? big deal. happens often I hear.

“--How is it that they (in the UFC) are just “claiming” to be WT practitioners but a guy (in a nightclub tough man/”Pit Fighter” video) is most certainly a grappler?

darlin', I didn't say he was most certianly a grappler, just that he 'tried" to grapple him to the ground.

--“…. if that guy actually got the WT fighter to the ground in that pit fight the crowd would have just stomped his head most likely like they did when he was taken to the ground.”

--Never mind me watching too much MMA. Someone’s been watching too many Steven Segal B movies.

If you watch the end of the clip, the crowd does stomp and kick the poor guy's head as he's on the ground. As for Segal, groovy, groovy man!
And a fellow Wing Chunner now. Pretty neat. lol!

--“…. Regarding Matt Hughes beating Royce Gracie and what that has to do with this thread:

“It proves my point that no matter how many times they lose, people still think the Gracies are the "best".“
--Who wrote that? Besides we all know Emin is the best. He’d beat those gracies in a heartbeat but they are to afraid to fight him (you, me and Delmar.j know that). I mean who have they ever fought? Emin fought that older, smaller WC/WT guy. Now that’s putting it on the line!

Just because that's the only time you've ever seen Emin fight doesn't mean that's the only guy he's fought. Emin doesn't travel around with a camra and challenge people like the Gracies. He's had 200-300 street fights and challenges, the guy is no hack. Again, just because he doesn't have video of every single fight to prove to people like you, all you focus on is the one Chueng video.

--“…. “Royce has lost a couple of times before that fight. His fighters have been beaten on many occasions. But, you never see video of those fights. No, darlin' they only post videos where they win.”

-- uhm, Yes Royce has lost before Matt Huges. Who exactly does Royce train for MMA? And I believe that I’ve seen GJJ/BJJ practitioner lose before in MMA. Are you saying the UFC, Pride, KOTC and the like edit out all these loses?

Oh, just stop. all you want to do is argue. You quote me stating that they only post videos of when they win, this is a true statement. and then state something totally unrealated. I've never seen the Shamrock and Gracie fought replayed again, when he beat Gracie in a 45 min. fight on the ground. (granted it is kinda borring) lol!

--“It's all propoganda to me, media blather and playing to the masses to get what they want. money.”

--You mean like putting a video on the internet of a younger, bigger Turkish guy beating up a smaller, older Chinese guy? I hear ya!

Again, get off it. There are "older smaller Chinese guys" that could give Emin a great run for their money. Fungs master for one, you can't touch that guy. WT/WC doesn't work like that. Plus, no one made any money off that silly fight. You should check out Emin's interviews on the situation, there you could hear it from him on both the Chueng fight and the Gracie deal.



I do believe your right, this thread is done. I've been on a couple of boards and people talk these incidents to death. It really gets no where and proves nothing. I've watched the interviews, talked to people that are directly linked to Emin, and read the stuff online. I've made up my own mind after checking out what facts are available to me. These opinions of mine are NOT just based on some stupid fight clip between two WC stylists, or on what people say on boards.
But if you want to base your opinions on these things, that's your choice and free will. But baiting arguement and such is not going to get anyone anywhere.

 

[Si-Je]

oh man! and you train silat, of course. Well, I won't bother you anymore about wing chun principles or tactics. I should have checked your profile sooner. This thread is done. All to be said has been said and then some.
Have a Groovy day!

 

[SilatFan]

oh man! and you train silat, of course. ....

LOL! What gave me away?

 

[Si-Je]

I thought you may have trained some wing chun too. And we had kinda gotten off topic talking about martial art technique. This is a very controversial topic to people of all arts and I've found it difficult to explain and describe wing chun technique to other stylists online. You practically have to write a "book". lol!
The techniques and principles are very simple in concept, but you don't realize the full potiential and effectiveness until you feel it, do it, and train it. I didn't mean to come off snobby or mean, I just made an assumption before looking at the arts you take.
But the political aspects of Sifu Emin's reputation and martial art career are can be discussed without Wing Chun theory. I just think it very unfair that people are so brutally judgemental of people of his stature. Emin, Chueng, the Gracies, whoever, their all human beings, with flaws and strengths. Because of their high profiles, people expect more from them, which it is right to ask more of a "master", but I think it gets out of hand at times. And people forget that these people are really just men, people too. And they respond to situations like a human would.
With Chueng, Emin was young and idealistic.
With the Gracies, Emin was insulted and maybe a bit defensive.
With Leung Ting, Emin was betrayed, hurt, and had to start all over.
These are all human feelings, and he delt with them the best he knew how at the time and probably has learned from these experiences and grown from them. Moved on.
I know that I probably wouldn't have delt with these situations any better, and most likely far worse. lol! I have a pretty rough temper that I try to control, and a pretty blunt view of dealing with folks that give me trouble. I think he's shown pretty good restraint, diplomacy, honesty, and fortitude, all things considered. But, that's just one person's opinion of another.

 

[SilatFan]

I thought you may have trained some wing chun too. And we had kinda gotten off topic talking about martial art technique. This is a very controversial topic to people of all arts and I've found it difficult to explain and describe wing chun technique to other stylists online. You practically have to write a "book". lol!
The techniques and principles are very simple in concept, but you don't realize the full potiential and effectiveness until you feel it, do it, and train it. I didn't mean to come off snobby or mean, I just made an assumption before looking at the arts you take.

I don’t feel a particular need to put my entire martial arts resume on the profile. I’d guess most people here don’t as well. My personal focus now is on the Chinese/Dutch/Indonesian arts as well as grappling. But I have previously studied Wing Chun under 2 different instructors/lineages for a limited time. The excessive reiteration of how much better their methods were than other arts, especially MMA/BJJ, as opposed to what I saw and felt led me to eventually move on. I just felt like, at worst, it was mostly hype and at best it was comparing apples to oranges. It doesn’t mean that I discard the art but there is only so much time in the day and you try to use your time as best as you can. I understand what you’re trying to say as far as the technical expression of WC/WT. I just don’t agree with the conclusion or how the argument is framed. No big deal, right? Just my opinion.

 

[Si-Je]

I've come across that attitude with wing chuners as well. When I first started learning the art from my husband he came off really arrogant to me about the superiority of wing chun and it burned me pretty good. I'd taken several other arts previously, and no one likes to hear that what they've spent years studying is inferior. We argued from time to time, and as I kept studying I kinda saw his point of view.
He's got rank in Kempo, Judo, Kendo, and whatever he learned in the marine corps, so his point of view wasn't totally without merrit.

But, we really try not to get so snobbish about the effectiveness of wing chun over some other styles. I guess we come off that way sometimes because we can counter some of the more popular styles pretty effortlessly using WC. WC's simplicity and directness just makes it quicker to counter.

Actually, the school we're opening up will have a few other styles being taught other than wing chun, and we encourage students to learn about the other styles too. Zapota and Kempo will be available to learn at the "kwoon" we're opening.

But for me, wing chun just works the best out of all the other arts i've taken. It's the first art where I actually generate real power in my punching, I don't have to throw or grapple a stronger opponent, the techniques are so simple (it's mindboggling sometimes how simple) and seem to fit my body type and small stature very well. I've even continued training throughout my pregnancy without difficulty.

Now, WT on the other hand doesn't seem to work for me as well at times as the WC. Small differences in movements make a big difference when your short and a featherweight like me. lol!
My hubbies a big man and he uses more WT to move straight into an opponent, while if I do that at times I've actually ended up smacking right into some big guys chest face first. ouch! lol!

With the WC there's more pivoting and utilization of angles for a smaller person against a very big opponent. Again, just small differences that make the world of difference when I'm doing technique against someone who would knock my block off with one strike. I don't have alot of room for error.

We train with MMA guys and grapplers from time to time and it's a good work out, good training for us. But personally, I wouldn't fight that way. Too much dependance on strength (which I don't have! lol!) and effort.
I kinda call WC the "lazy art" because you stay so relaxed, more so than any art i've taken.

But I understand how much of a "turn off" it is when a teacher constantly preaches to you how wing chun is the best. We truely try not to do that, and just concentrate on teaching the technique. It takes so long to really get into the "meat" of WC, that to preach would waste the students valuable time. Plus, we seem to practice more application, light sparring, sparring with gear on, than many other schools do, which the students really like. That way they can constantly experiment and test the techniques we teach.

 

[monji112000]

The excessive reiteration of how much better their methods were than other arts, especially MMA/BJJ, as opposed to what I saw and felt led me to eventually move on.

Common sense should be you determining factor, not what people say. If someone can't do it with someone in a "realistic" position.. then don't waste your time.

I personally don't consider someone with limp arms, soft attacks, rolling over with just a push ect.. realistic. BUT HEY thats just me


I have been told that Ip man himself didn't believe that one style was better than another. Each had their own merits.

 

[Shogun]

I don't know why, but it seems people are using the word "grappling" to describe someone who grabs, instead of one of the various studies of such.

But, whe pull out the mats, and have them put on head gear with a metal face shield and go to town. I've had grapplers sparr with me, and because of my size, sure, I sometimes get taken to the ground, but by then they've been hit, kicked, and kneed so many times they haven't been able to do much to me when we get to the ground. Then with anti-grappling I get them off and am back on my feet.

let me give you an example. I am by no means the best grappler. but I hold a blue belt in gracie jiu-jitsu and have been wrestling 10 years. I have also sparred with WT people so I have that exp. I was sparring with one of the technician ranks (is that right?). I told him he could strike me to defend takedowns. now, he wasn't going to hit me full contact, but to be fair, I wouldn't strike back..only grapple. he assumed position, I shot in, ate a VERY light elbow to the shoulder, and KOed him temporarily with my double leg. I then mounted and head and arm choked him. this is one example of a real grappler as opposed to that guy in the video who simply picked up the street fighting WT guy.

 

[bcbernam777]

I don't know why, but it seems people are using the word "grappling" to describe someone who grabs, instead of one of the various studies of such.



let me give you an example. I am by no means the best grappler. but I hold a blue belt in gracie jiu-jitsu and have been wrestling 10 years. I have also sparred with WT people so I have that exp. I was sparring with one of the technician ranks (is that right?). I told him he could strike me to defend takedowns. now, he wasn't going to hit me full contact, but to be fair, I wouldn't strike back..only grapple. he assumed position, I shot in, ate a VERY light elbow to the shoulder, and KOed him temporarily with my double leg. I then mounted and head and arm choked him. this is one example of a real grappler as opposed to that guy in the video who simply picked up the street fighting WT guy.

And I am sure there are plenty of Story's on the other side of the camp too.

 

[Shogun]

Yeah, there is. one of the stories goes:

"WT anti-grappling won't work against guys who train with division 1 all-american wrestlers and GJJ black belts, so we should probably start learning this stuff if we want to negate it in a fight"

not an exact quote, but a rough translation of the words and actions. Our schools cross train like that. we pick up on these weaknesses in each other's arts. etc

 

[bcbernam777]

Yeah, there is. one of the stories goes:

"WT anti-grappling won't work against guys who train with division 1 all-american wrestlers and GJJ black belts, so we should probably start learning this stuff if we want to negate it in a fight"

not an exact quote, but a rough translation of the words and actions. Our schools cross train like that. we pick up on these weaknesses in each other's arts. etc

Then there are the other stories of where WC fighters kicked the **** out of Grapplers, but of course (according to the majority on any forum) they are moot because they are personal accounts. I have taken on a grappler (BJJ) who came of second best. Listen shogun why dont you stay in your MMA world, because obviously its unbeatable, there is no need to mix with such poor plebians who obviously pale beneath your mighty art.

 

[Shogun]

Then there are the other stories of where WC fighters kicked the **** out of Grapplers, but of course (according to the majority on any forum) they are moot because they are personal accounts. I have taken on a grappler (BJJ) who came of second best. Listen shogun why dont you stay in your MMA world, because obviously its unbeatable, there is no need to mix with such poor plebians who obviously pale beneath your mighty art.

well then you didn't understand my point. I don't discredit WT. we teach out of a WT school, and I beleive it has a lot to offer. I also train traditional Jujutsu systems btw. I just find it offensive and downright disrespectful (not to mention careless) for a teacher to claim anti-grappling will work against a seasoned grappler. it won't. plain and simple. The only way to get better at grappling and anti grappling....is to grapple. .....You don't learn sailing to learn how to swim just because sailing has a little water involved.....I am not a MMA nuthugger, I just find it laughable when teachers tell their students "yeah, when a wrestler shoots in like this..." and they show how a wrestler WOULDn't shoot in...ya know what I mean. they are gonna get their students hurt. if they want to show how to do this stuff, I reccomend two things:

1. learn a grappling system, or at least the first basics..
2. Don't make claims what they are doing is going to work agianst someone who only does lots and lots of grappling.

regards,
Kyle

 

[bcbernam777]

I always thought the best anti-grappling was to punch them in the nose

 

[Shogun]

I always thought the best anti-grappling was to punch them in the nose

sounds liek a good option, but I am refering to WT instrcutors saying "a wrestler will shoot like this.." and they lean in like they are trying to tickle them or something. now these students have it in their muscle memory and have no knowledge of how a wrestler will actually shoot, plus, on the chance they get into it with a wrestler, instead of playing it safe they may have a false confidence because they have ......you know, basically what I am saying is don't train to defend against stuff that you haven't trained. chances are its wrong.