Sifu Emin Boztepe

[DeLamar.J]

This is simply and utterly false. The Gracie have no-rules change that was and is open to anyone. They have never declined to fight under no-rules conditions.

You are a victim of what good media coverage can do. "we will fight under no rules, as long as you do it at our gym with 50 of our homeboys all aound you" Like the person above stated, they need to meet Emin on neutral ground. It will NEVER NEVER happen, because he is a reputable master, and right now ju jitsu is what sells, and once he beats them, now his art sells. Its comparable to electric cars, now the gas companies dominate with money and power, and will keep it that way for as long as possible with lies, lawyers, and media.
So what do they do, make it difficult, and then use lawyers, money and media to manipulate the situation. But in the end, the truth will rear its ugly head, it could take a lifetime though.

 

[DeLamar.J]

Also, the UFC has this "no rules" stigma that follows it around, when that is far from the truth. The UFC's rules benifit kickboxing/wrestling fighters. There are some real Kung Fu masters out there that would destroy all of the UFC competitors out there right now, but as I stated in another thread on Chinese secrecy, the PUBLIC, and the COURTS, are not ready for true Chinese martial arts.
Chinese martial arts is very brutal, people can be maimed for life, even killed. The herd is not ready for this. The media will continue to manipulate all of you who dont see the truth.
I dont blame Emin for backing off, because the media will eat most anyone alive. The media will paint you a bad guy, and the herd will trample you. He understands this, so he backed off. I wish I was a good enough martial artist to back him, and had the money and connections to help expose everything, but unfortunately the most I can do is sit behind a computer screen and tell my side, and more than likely I will be taken as seriously as every other keyboard warrior out there, what a shame.

 

[bcbernam777]

This is simply and utterly false. The Gracie have no-rules change that was and is open to anyone. They have never declined to fight under no-rules conditions.

Even though he has personal examples. Tunnel Vision is hazardous to your health

 

[Rook]

Also, the UFC has this "no rules" stigma that follows it around, when that is far from the truth. The UFC's rules benifit kickboxing/wrestling fighters. There are some real Kung Fu masters out there that would destroy all of the UFC competitors out there right now, but as I stated in another thread on Chinese secrecy, the PUBLIC, and the COURTS, are not ready for true Chinese martial arts.
Chinese martial arts is very brutal, people can be maimed for life, even killed. The herd is not ready for this. The media will continue to manipulate all of you who dont see the truth.
I dont blame Emin for backing off, because the media will eat most anyone alive. The media will paint you a bad guy, and the herd will trample you. He understands this, so he backed off. I wish I was a good enough martial artist to back him, and had the money and connections to help expose everything, but unfortunately the most I can do is sit behind a computer screen and tell my side, and more than likely I will be taken as seriously as every other keyboard warrior out there, what a shame.

The UFC is not itself a no-rules contest and never was. It is perhaps what sanshou contests are to CMA, perhaps a little more.

If he would have fought and won repeatedly, "the media" would be on his side. The people I see in the MMA world search for the best fighters and best methods as proven in recorded fights against competent opponents.

 

[Rook]

Even though he has personal examples. Tunnel Vision is hazardous to your health

He repeated Boztepe's fantasy story. The Gracie's open challenge is posted all over the internet and used to be posted all over the magazines... its not closed to anyone, Boztepe included. If he had video of himself showing up at a Gracie's gym and being turned away, that would be different. Instead, we just have him saying that they wouldn't fight him.

 

[Journeyman]

Here's the exchange of letters between the two sides of the Boztepe and Gracie/UFC flap. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.martial-arts/msg/763155976768b0ec?oe=UTF-8&output=gplain

 

[Si-Je]

The UFC is not itself a no-rules contest and never was. It is perhaps what sanshou contests are to CMA, perhaps a little more.

If he would have fought and won repeatedly, "the media" would be on his side. The people I see in the MMA world search for the best fighters and best methods as proven in recorded fights against competent opponents.

It was when it first started. I remember the old UFC, people got really hurt. One guy got his whole side of his face caved in by elbow strikes. It was disgusting. Back in the day I think they only disallowed biting because of AIDS, but other than that it was anything goes, and the martial artists that used to compete went into the ring and came at eachother like their life and health depended on it.
Now they fight like their afraid to get hit. Their purse fighters, just like boxing now. It's a business, a sport, very much like the boxing commission (which is all over UFC) and has brought the corruption with it too.

As for the MMA world looking for the "best" fighters in the world. That's just not true. Emin has fought in over 200 street fights and challenges, and has a reputation for winning all. What they look for is fighters that are "marketable". They all fight the same in UFC. Hardly any have even studied a martial art, just MMA. I remember when the term "mixed martial artist" didn't even exist, and if one was considered so then they had rank in at least two different arts. These guys don't study, they train to box, wrestle, kickboxing in a gym all geared to train you for the rules of UFC cage fighting.

I really liked what Delmar said eariler. The reference to oil companies and electric cars is a perfect senario, as well as the "mob" or "herd" mentality. This is very prominant in America always has been. People really aren't interested in truth as much as they are in whats the "fad". Truth has never been very popular even worldwide, but here it's worse.
Maybe if I was a big strong guy I'd enjoy MMA and BJJ more and see more value in them as an art. But, I'm not, and truely not interested in either for I've tried these techniques and they simply do not work for me against a larger attacker. I find Wing Chun to be highly effecient, simple, direct, and quickly devastating. We are also very desensitized as a culture and I've found that many MMA and BJJ stylists shrug off the thought of being hit repeatedly in the head face, and neck. They train to take a couple of hits to get the take down, this will not work the way many think.

Check out this video of a WT stylist fighting in a pit fight. It shows the effectiveness of WT against a larger opponent. This is a real no holds barred fight (don't worry, it's not too gruewsome! lol!) but it is pretty awesome.

http://comegetyousome.com/viewvid.php?id=428

Notice when the guy grabs him and picks him up why grappling isn't always a good idea. The WT guy stays totally in form, and uses only Wing Chun the whole time. no need for another art.

 

[Si-Je]

Here's the exchange of letters between the two sides of the Boztepe and Gracie/UFC flap. http://groups.google.com/group/rec.martial-arts/msg/763155976768b0ec?oe=UTF-8&output=gplain

Those letters that were written back and forth are exactly the "boys game" I speak of in my earlier post, of that I wouldn't play. My husband loves challenges, and fighting and competing. I've already made plans as to how these will take place if they come up. He's been challenged to fight at a masters tournament in the recent past, but I didn't want him to go. It was a set up. obviously.
Where the GM of the style had a couple of hundred of his "followers" and students, and black belts there, whereas my husband would just have me.
The Gracies want to operate like this as well.
I found the reference to fighting at a police gym very amusing. Not exactly a neutral place. lol!
Emin seems to be a pretty good guy, and he's very intelligent as well. A true martial artist. But, these letters quickly go nowhere. And as I see it, gracies hiding behind the UFC. I've seen video where they go to another martial artists school and fight. But never without an all out "gang" of their own who hover around the fighters like vultures. I don't find that acceptable either. I don't know why the gracies didn't come to Emins school, or meet at the gyms of the martial arts magazines that he requested. But it's really not that important.
Everyone's going to have their opinion on this as well as the Chueng fight, and why Emin left EWTO. Again, the policticing in martial arts does the real damage to the arts. Egos and reputations and blah, blah. Maybe because I read alot of the Tao, and such I really see these situations and events differently than some.
I see lack of respect being given to either side in those letters, and as a woman see the attitudes differently.
But, to me, it's all a great lesson. Since my hubbie wants to compete, and accept challenge too. Hopefully I'll be better prepared and know how to deal with such behavior if the occasion arises. Which, unfortunately, it probably will, since we are opening a school in an area so saturated with BJJ, MMA, and TKD. Again, he's a guy, and looks forward to it. But, I shudder to think. Yet see the necessity in educating the public to our art. It's just a shame that people require so much psudo-truth and proof, like video and such. If people could really just try something new and different and make up their own minds themselves all this mess wouldn't be necessary.

 

[Rook]

It was when it first started.

No. There were fines for biting and eye attacks from the beginning. Eventually, there was a rule against biting, eye attacks and groin attacks, and then it expanded from there.

I remember the old UFC, people got really hurt. One guy got his whole side of his face caved in by elbow strikes. It was disgusting.

Elbow strikes to the face are still perfectly legal in the UFC and many other MMA organizations.

Back in the day I think they only disallowed biting because of AIDS, but other than that it was anything goes, and the martial artists that used to compete went into the ring and came at eachother like their life and health depended on it.
Now they fight like their afraid to get hit. Their purse fighters, just like boxing now. It's a business, a sport, very much like the boxing commission (which is all over UFC) and has brought the corruption with it too.

The traditional martial artists are still welcome... they just can't win enough fights in the lower organizations to make it to the UFC anymore.

As for the MMA world looking for the "best" fighters in the world. That's just not true. Emin has fought in over 200 street fights and challenges, and has a reputation for winning all.

The thing is, everyone with internet acess can be believed to have won as many fights and they choose to type on their website. Where is the record of any of these fights?

(By the way, many bouncers can easily match the 200 street fights figure.)

What they look for is fighters that are "marketable". They all fight the same in UFC. Hardly any have even studied a martial art, just MMA. I remember when the term "mixed martial artist" didn't even exist, and if one was considered so then they had rank in at least two different arts. These guys don't study, they train to box, wrestle, kickboxing in a gym all geared to train you for the rules of UFC cage fighting.

They do study, just not a traditional art. They study the techniques that are proven most effective to date... best practices rather than traditions. Also, the majority of MMA gyms do train in things other than just the cage part, including the weapons drills and such.

I really liked what Delmar said eariler. The reference to oil companies and electric cars is a perfect senario, as well as the "mob" or "herd" mentality. This is very prominant in America always has been. People really aren't interested in truth as much as they are in whats the "fad". Truth has never been very popular even worldwide, but here it's worse.
Maybe if I was a big strong guy I'd enjoy MMA and BJJ more and see more value in them as an art. But, I'm not, and truely not interested in either for I've tried these techniques and they simply do not work for me against a larger attacker. I find Wing Chun to be highly effecient, simple, direct, and quickly devastating. We are also very desensitized as a culture and I've found that many MMA and BJJ stylists shrug off the thought of being hit repeatedly in the head face, and neck. They train to take a couple of hits to get the take down, this will not work the way many think.

The thing is that it has worked and worked with a very high level of consistancy. The only people who can stay standing long enough to land good strikes are highly capable grapplers using wrestling sprawls and takedown defences.

Check out this video of a WT stylist fighting in a pit fight. It shows the effectiveness of WT against a larger opponent. This is a real no holds barred fight (don't worry, it's not too gruewsome! lol!) but it is pretty awesome.

http://comegetyousome.com/viewvid.php?id=428

Notice when the guy grabs him and picks him up why grappling isn't always a good idea. The WT guy stays totally in form, and uses only Wing Chun the whole time. no need for another art.

What is the consistancy for these tactics though?

 

[Si-Je]

What is the consistancy for these tactics though?

Did you see the video? I'm not sure I understand what your asking.

I just stumbled on that video one day playing around, and was really happy to finally find a video of WT being used properly in a fight.

For the two WT guys that fought in UFC were not what I would call a good example of their art. I'm not sure what they were doing, but I didn't see any WT being executed. It's like they froze up or something.
Which can happen to the best of us. lol!

 

[Journeyman]

The problem with that video is that the Wing Chunner would have been slammed to the ground within the blink of an eye by anyone with even minimal skill at grappling. Good job by the Wing Chunner at countering what was served up to him though.

 

[ed-swckf]

The problem with that video is that the Wing Chunner would have been slammed to the ground within the blink of an eye by anyone with even minimal skill at grappling. Good job by the Wing Chunner at countering what was served up to him though.

You grapple then?

 

[Si-Je]

The problem with that video is that the Wing Chunner would have been slammed to the ground within the blink of an eye by anyone with even minimal skill at grappling. Good job by the Wing Chunner at countering what was served up to him though.

see, that's what I mean. I really don't see much of a chance for the guy to really take him to the ground. He's getting pummled with fists and elbows. He tried to take him to the ground but pain became a big distraction. This is the desensitizing I'm talking about. This is a bare knuckle fight, street pit fight. Once the other guy is on the ground the crowd is kicking him. You don't want to go to the ground. bad scene.

I'm come across alot of grapplers that think this way. They come to class and state that they can take us to the ground quickly. Which by all means, they surely can! very fast!

But, whe pull out the mats, and have them put on head gear with a metal face shield and go to town. I've had grapplers sparr with me, and because of my size, sure, I sometimes get taken to the ground, but by then they've been hit, kicked, and kneed so many times they haven't been able to do much to me when we get to the ground. Then with anti-grappling I get them off and am back on my feet.

Now, many times they find (with the gear on of course) that they cannot take me to the ground. with the head gear on we can show them the force of the punching, heel kick, knees, elbowing, and such without hurting them. It still moves and changes their balance and body direction when they go for the takedown, making them have to try to re-group and try another angle of attack. All while their getting kicked, kneed, chain punched and elbowed. It's harder than it seems to take someone down when your getting hit many times within seconds.

 

[Journeyman]

Not much anymore. Rotator cuff problems limit me nowadays. What was interesting to me in the video was shoulder leading, head across the opponent's body grappling attempt by the bigger guy(similar to the position presented in Guiterrez's Wing Tsun book if I recall correctly)--that was mistake number one. Even so, he managed to lock his hands around the wing chunner's back, but he just picked him up and held him there--mistake number 2. A grappler with even a little skill would have had him on the ground instantly from that position.

 

[Journeyman]

"You don't want to go to the ground. bad scene." That's true in a streetfight, but if he didn't want to go to the ground he probably shouldn't have been grappling with the Wing Chunner at all.

 

[Si-Je]

Not much anymore. Rotator cuff problems limit me nowadays. What was interesting to me in the video was shoulder leading, head across the opponent's body grappling attempt by the bigger guy(similar to the position presented in Guiterrez's Wing Tsun book if I recall correctly)--that was mistake number one. Even so, he managed to lock his hands around the wing chunner's back, but he just picked him up and held him there--mistake number 2. A grappler with even a little skill would have had him on the ground instantly from that position.

I've watched to old Gracie fights of UFC and BJJ challenges. He just walks up to the opponent and grabs them above the waist and muscles them down that way. Or they grab the neck and shoulders and just kinda sit down on the ground on their butt dragging the opponent on top of them. not like they seem to do in MMA nowdays, where they shoot in lower and faster.
I think that's why Guiterrez uses that as a staple. He was taught by Emin the anti-grappling.
Yet, I still think no. a grappler would not be taking that guy to the ground, and if he did he'd be hurting bad. But that's just my opinion.
When disgussing theoritacly what one fighter could do to another it's all just speculation. There are many variables involved in a real fight that you cannot always forsee. luck, bad luck, lol!, endurance, pain tolerance, will, etc. It's too much like trying to bet on a horse race. It's a gamble to guess and fun, but you won't know till it happens.

 

[DeLamar.J]

The bottom line is that the gracies will never fight Emin in a no rules fight, ever. They want him to join UFC, but why, I thought they were no rules fighters, and last I checked UFC has rules. Im sure Emin would have no problem meeting them on neutral ground in a street fight, but they will never do it.

 

[bcbernam777]

He repeated Boztepe's fantasy story. The Gracie's open challenge is posted all over the internet and used to be posted all over the magazines... its not closed to anyone, Boztepe included. If he had video of himself showing up at a Gracie's gym and being turned away, that would be different. Instead, we just have him saying that they wouldn't fight him.

ok if you haven't done earlier provide some links

 

[Rook]

The bottom line is that the gracies will never fight Emin in a no rules fight, ever. They want him to join UFC, but why, I thought they were no rules fighters, and last I checked UFC has rules. Im sure Emin would have no problem meeting them on neutral ground in a street fight, but they will never do it.

If they were not going to fight him, he should have gone there and gotten them on tape cowering... I am certain that the Gracies would have fought him gladly however. They have never backed down from their no-rules challenge to date, and I very much doubt that they would refuse to fight him either.

 

[Rook]

I've watched to old Gracie fights of UFC and BJJ challenges. He just walks up to the opponent and grabs them above the waist and muscles them down that way. Or they grab the neck and shoulders and just kinda sit down on the ground on their butt dragging the opponent on top of them. not like they seem to do in MMA nowdays, where they shoot in lower and faster.

Different takedowns. The older gracie fights tend to use "pulling guard" where they attain guard while the opponent is still standing and let gravity do the work. They also can use relatively slow takedown because the opponents lack stability and wrestling defense. The modern fighters are compelled to use better takedowns because that their opponents are all versed in wrestling sprawls and hence it is necessary to have highly developed wrestling takedowns.

I think that's why Guiterrez uses that as a staple. He was taught by Emin the anti-grappling.
Yet, I still think no. a grappler would not be taking that guy to the ground, and if he did he'd be hurting bad. But that's just my opinion.
When disgussing theoritacly what one fighter could do to another it's all just speculation. There are many variables involved in a real fight that you cannot always forsee. luck, bad luck, lol!, endurance, pain tolerance, will, etc. It's too much like trying to bet on a horse race. It's a gamble to guess and fun, but you won't know till it happens.

I am pretty certain that this fight represents a very much unskilled and possibly untrained opponent who gives no indication that he understands grappling even at the most rudimentary level.