Sifu Benny Meng's Wing Chun University

[coffeerox]

I just found this today while browsing WC videos. Benny Meng of the VT Museum started an online learning program similar to what you see with Michael Wong and Jin Yeung (or is it Young, sorry) The difference is that this is not free, it costs 35 bucks/mo to subscribe to current and future videos within the curriculum. Here are some sample clips from the training videos

Intermediate Lap Sau

Pak Sau

What do you guys think about this? In my opinion, the content is good. I'm kind of disappointed they mixed in the old videos instead of making new ones and supplementing that with Chu Shong Tin's seminar (which I've seen btw). If you check out the SNT curriculum page, you'll see what I mean. These videos come from the VHS tape they made a long while back.

http://vtm-dlp.com/catalogue/snt/snt.html

Utilizing both videos does make it easier to understand but I think it would have been more helpful if it was more structured and step by step rather than giving us the run-down and then covering finer points through the seminar.

Once it gets into the new videos though, it gets a lot better. He goes through the lesson explaining the details and showing us the application and it's different variations. This is the kind of step by step I was talking about.

Having gone through both Jin's and Michael Wong's lessons, I would say that the lessons are on par. They are all valuable as they have something different to teach. For instance, Michael Wong focuses on adapting WC to real life situations and Jin focuses on body structure and concepts. Both of them actually compliment each other very well.

As for the value, the catch is that you'll be paying 35 a month for a month but you'll be waiting for new videos to be created and uploaded. Once you've seen and practiced all there is, the subscription loses it's value very quickly. Personally, I prefer Michael and Jin's model however I am drawn to what Benny Meng has to offer.

 

[geezer]

The topic of learning WC from books, video and on-line courses has already been covered. The opinion of experts is clear: Don't waste your time or money.

DVDs, videos, books and the like can be a great supplement to hands on training, but never a substitute. If you frequent Jin Young's website, you'll note that this is all he's trying to do. His videos are a great supplemental aide to his students in the Hawkins Cheung - Gary Lam sub-system. And, they are a great way to share and discuss ideas with other WC branches. They aren't a "do-it-yourself" program!!!

Another thing, investigate what's available, visit different classes, then make a decision, and commit to one system or branch for at least six months. Don't monkey around, switching from group to group. Even within the WC family, you shouldn't try to "cherry pick" just what you like from different groups. That's like trying to build a car with parts from half-a-dozen different models. Even if they are all the same brand, you still wont end up with something that works well!

So, if you don't like what's available on your side of town (my group for example) then get out to Tempe and visit Joy's class... but don't waste his time if you aren't serious! No car? No problem. My tiny, 4 foot 11-in. tall 14-year old daughter decided she wanted to attend an arts high-school in Tempe. Every day she'd get up a dawn, walk to the light-rail station and commute 50 minutes each way to get there... because she really wanted to go to that school. A student transport pass cost her less than $30 a month. My point is that it can be done. Or you can sit at home, watch you-tube and "teach yourself". See how that works for you!

 

[Xue Sheng]

The topic of learning WC from books, video and on-line courses has already been covered. The opinion of experts is clear: Don't waste your time or money.

That about covers it.

Distance learning, Online Learning, Video learning in martial arts is at best a supplement to training with a real live teacher on a regular basis

 

[jks9199]

Dude -- you've had people all but offer to come and pick you up so that you can train.

What the hell else do you want? There's no wing chun download for your brain, or pill that'll give you mad skillz. It takes real training, with a real teacher for all but a tiny handful of incredibly talented individuals who would excel at ANY physical undertaking.

Quit making excuses and looking for easy ways out, and invest some sweat equity. Geezer has told you about training opportunities that I have to accept his word are doable -- because you're the one who keeps making excuses and looking for distance training and the like.

 

[Boozmork]

Agreed. I was really introduced to Wing Chun through a few of those online tutorials.
It was a terrible idea because you don't really learn anything except the ability to mirror what you perceive to be correct.
With someone teaching you in person they can test you and give you specific advice and even tailor training exercises specifically for you.
I'm not as experienced as a lot of the people on here but three months with Sifu must equate to at least three years in front of youtube .

I have to do a bit of travelling to get to class as well. I don't see it as a negative though. It gives me chance to turn my mind onto training and off from everything else. And on the way back I get to detox a little and let the lesson sink in properly before my mind gets occupied by anything else.

Get to class!! Chi Sau is so much fun, you can't do that remotely without breaking your monitor

 

[mook jong man]

YouTube doesn't hit back.

 

[coffeerox]

what the hell are you guys talking about? seriously? This was a post about the content on Benny Meng's website, not about my training or whatever the hell you guys twisted it into.

@geezer: I don't hate your class/branch/sub-system or anything, I meant every word that I said when I was trying to get it together so I can start coming back down. Actually recent events have shown me that I need to get back more than ever.

Dude -- you've had people all but offer to come and pick you up so that you can train.

I DO have people that come pick me up to train. Every Wednesday in fact. It's not a class, but we at least have people trained in other styles that I can at least play around with, like spar, do drills shown to me in videos and test my application to see what the result is. This is an alternative while I get my finances together to go back to geezer's class.

This thread wasn't even about me. I was showing you guys what I found and I wanted to know your opinion on the CONTENT of the clips, not what you think about self training and turning it into an issue about me.

I don't even feel welcome anymore because I feel that as soon as I try to say something you're gonna get me for me being a self-trainer. Thanks a lot guys.

His videos are a great supplemental aide to his students in the Hawkins Cheung - Gary Lam sub-system.

A student of his asked if it was possible to do it at home, he said yes. That's all I need to know about Jin's videos. A part of self-training is the student, how able he is to absorb what is being taught and putting it into practice. If the student can't learn what is being taught to him at home, how is he able to learn when being taught in person? Benny Meng has covered this question as well. It says on the FAQ that some things can be done solo, but for the most part you need a training partner to make this happen. Even Michael Wong after oh, 20 or so odd lessons, says that you need a partner.

@Steve, if you can get a day off on Wednesday afternoon/evening, I invite you to come over to our training sessions. We don't just sit there and theorycraft. I'm not saying we know everything and are masters or whatnot, we just come together to put into practice what we learned.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

The general view is that video and book training is a compliment to, not a replacement for classroom training. Learning under a qualified instructor will be faster, more reliable, provide immediate feedback and correction. Learning by book or video means you risk repeating mistakes and incorrect movements until they become hard to "unlearn" when you do finally start working steadily with a real instructor. A couple buddies coming by to play martial arts is not a substitute for a serious study group led by an experienced practitioner. If you memorize the alphabet ACBDFE, it'll be a chore to fix it later.

Content of the clips is fine. Most of the clips from reliable instructors are.

 

[coffeerox]

A couple buddies coming by to play martial arts is not a substitute for a serious study group led by an experienced practitioner.

That goes against Bruce Lee's idea of putting things into practice to see if it works or not. The simple fact is, something is being taught to me, I drill it as shown, and I test it in sparring. That's already more than what most Wing Chun students do!

Even within the WC family, you shouldn't try to "cherry pick" just what you like from different groups. That's like trying to build a car with parts from half-a-dozen different models. Even if they are all the same brand, you still wont end up with something that works well!

I don't agree with that at all. If you want to say that, then might as well denounce Jeet Kune Do, both Jun Fan and Concepts because that's exactly what they do. Might as well throw in MMA while you're at it.

What I do, is the same concept as JKD, but applied to only 1 style. For instance, there's different stances used by different WC lineages. William C's adopts a sideways stance with a rear and lead leg. Others use a square on stance, some just use a straight up natural fighting stance. The point is not that you cherry pick one of these and use it as you like. The point is that you study why they are used, put it into practice and find what works.

It could be that all of it works, but they are trained that way for a specific purpose. For instance, Master Wong's uses both square on AND the traditional WC stance as well as a natural fighting stance. Why? Because in a real life situation, you're not going to be ready to go into your WC stance. You have to do what is natural for you, your automatic reflexes that WC trains, will come in and THAT is where your stance work will come in.

It's not cherry picking at all. It's learning the varieties within your style and why those variations exist. There is no "this way" or "that way" you use "no way" as "way". Tan Sau is a Tan Sau, doesn't matter what lineage you are from, there may be MORE ways to use Tan Sau that you haven't thought of, but the more ways you learn to use Tan Sau, in the end, it's just a Tan Sau.

This idea also came from Bruce Lee's Tao of Jeet Kune Do. It's not a riddle book, you have to have a certain level of comprehension (which is outside of Martial Arts) to understand what he is saying.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

You're not Bruce Lee.

 

[jks9199]

You're not Bruce Lee.

He ain't even Leroy Green...

 

[coffeerox]

typical attitudes of poor martial artists, I can't even call you martial artists if you can't accept somebody the way they are and discuss things like gentleman. Like i said this post wasn't meant to be about self-training and wasn't meant to be about me, however YOU people made it about me.

You can say whatever you like about my martial art background but we all come from different walks in life and have our strengths in our own areas. I'm more insulted by the fact that people aren't debating the issue at hand and instead resorting to personal attacks because that's all you can do. If you want to do that then I can play that game too. Just remember not to get angry because I'm the best there is in that area. You started it, not me.

What's sad is that this is coming from the moderator and administrator. I would expect this from a member but you guys run the site. Your attitude is supposed to be above this but it isn't.

 

[coffeerox]

geezer, pick your best student and we'll do a sparring match. We'll see what a self-taught has to offer.

 

[geezer]

what the hell are you guys talking about? seriously? This was a post about the content on Benny Meng's website, not about my training

OK, to get back to the OP, I'm not a huge fan of Benny Meng's interpretation of the art, but that's just my personal opinion. As far as the video'd go, I've only seen "sample clips" similar to the ones you posted, and I think they are probably useful to Mr. Meng's students. However, I am not a fan of "distance learning", even outside the martial arts. I'm old school about that. Even when talking about purely academic subjects, I'd rather sit my butt down in a small classroom and learn face to face with a good professor... and not through some online program. Now when it comes to learning a martial art like WC, I think that is all the more true. You can't get the "feel" without crossing bridges with people that have experience. My problem with the videos is that they are seem to be presented as a "course" in WC. I simply don't see that as workable. On the other hand, Jin's stuff seems to be presented as a supplement for his student, and a way of sharing with other WC folks. I don't have a problem with that at all.

@Steve, if you can get a day off on Wednesday afternoon/evening, I invite you to come over to our training sessions. We don't just sit there and theorycraft. I'm not saying we know everything and are masters or whatnot, we just come together to put into practice what we learned.

As you know, I have the Y class on Weds. eves. so that won't work. But we do a Sat. thing at Kiwanis Park and it might be fun to get together. Also, I think it's great that you actually experiment with stuff on your own. I'm all for that. I think the best students always try to take what they learn in class and test it out on their own. The question is, "If you haven't committed to a school yet, exactly what are you testing out?" I know some guys that are great martial artists who never got a really high rank in any traditional art, but they did have a really strong foundation before going off on their own. Something to think about.

 

[geezer]

geezer, pick your best student and we'll do a sparring match. We'll see what a self-taught has to offer.

Sorry, didn't see this, I was typing a reply to your earlier remarks (see above). Anyway, you sound a bit angry. I think you should just try to relax and take it in stride. I've been doing my best to help you, but a lot of people seem to be mis-interpreting what you say already, and this might also be taken the wrong way. It would be better to PM me about sparring practice. I'm off to Disneyland on Thurs. but will be back in about 6 days. Keep in touch. --Steve

 

[jks9199]

typical attitudes of poor martial artists, I can't even call you martial artists if you can't accept somebody the way they are and discuss things like gentleman. Like i said this post wasn't meant to be about self-training and wasn't meant to be about me, however YOU people made it about me.

You can say whatever you like about my martial art background but we all come from different walks in life and have our strengths in our own areas. I'm more insulted by the fact that people aren't debating the issue at hand and instead resorting to personal attacks because that's all you can do. If you want to do that then I can play that game too. Just remember not to get angry because I'm the best there is in that area. You started it, not me.

What's sad is that this is coming from the moderator and administrator. I would expect this from a member but you guys run the site. Your attitude is supposed to be above this but it isn't.

Interestingly enough, I've said NOTHING about your skills. I've never met you nor seen you move; you may be one of that tiny minority I mentioned.

I have, repeatedly, addressed your attitude. I'll say it bluntly: as long as you make excuses, you won't be successful in your training. When you choose to stop making the excuses, and find ways to make it work -- then you may well excel.

A "violence prone playgroup" (to steal a name) can be a great training environment, once you have a certain base level of skills built up. Until then, unless you have someone with a lot of skill guiding and shaping it, you stand a much better chance of getting hurt and ingraining bad habits and improper technique that you feel "works." I've got a student who took several years to realize that, rather than relying on tricks and trying to over-analyze what his opponent might do, if he simply did what he was taught -- and kept working with it until he could do it under pressure -- he'd succeed. That's why I don't encourage students to spar without supervision.

I suppose, though, that we're derailing this thread, which you apparently started to discuss the one website. I apparently misunderstood your seeking opinions about it; you weren't intending it as means of furthering your own training without actually attending formal (or informal) classes with a wing chun sifu, and just wanted to kibbitz about the site.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Let me make this perfectly clear.

You want things to go your way, you write a script and hire actors. You want feedback, accept that you're not going to like all of it.

I stated a true fact. You are NOT Bruce Lee. Lee was traditionally trained, you are not. Lee is considered a martial arts genius, acknowledged by serious players in the arts as such. You're a kid learning from books and videos making an *** out of himself on a web forum full of traditional martial artists. I have no idea of your ethnicity, so can't say if you and he are both Chinese, however Lee is dead, and you are not. So I have listed at least 3 verifiable ways you are NOT like Bruce Lee.

As to the "I can play the game too" and all that, I'll be even blunter:
1- Read the rules again. You did read them when you signed up right?
2- Pay careful attention to the part about "Challenge Posts".

Now, if you wish to continue to post about training off videos and books, accept the fact that the majority of the members here look at that material as supplemental at best, and you'll continually be reminded of that. If you don't want to hear it, I suggest you find a forum populated by like minded folks and hear what you want to hear.

As to the videos, as I said, they are ok. However you yourself said "would have been more helpful if it was more structured and step by step" which is why you train from a legit instructor. You don't have to wait for "tape 2" to get more information, you simply ask for clarification.

Just because you -think- you are monkeying the movements right, doesn't mean you are. My JKD instructor was anal in correcting every little thing. Hands off by a degree, elbows a quarter inch too wide, stance an inch too wide, etc. My Wing Chun instructor was just as particular in correcting things. My bookshelf is has 4 shelves over flowing with books by some seriously good folks. My video library, huge, and the Youtube bookmarks several thousand long. When I want to train, I find a flesh and blood instructor, I don't just go out back and bang with my friends. Course, my videos are out there. Lets see yours.

 

[Tensei85]

To OP,

I've previously trained under Benny Meng for over a decade. So to the question of the thread, I would say the content for the Online University will be detailed & generally decently put together. Take note, I say "will be" as I haven't viewed the actual University site so I can't comment much on the content provided. But let me say from the vid's offered & posted it seems well put together with decent knowledge & can be used as a complementary training device as long as it's not substantially different from what your Sifu has to offer and you have that particular skill set training platform in motion.

Benny Meng is a knowledgeable practitioner & Instructor of Wing Chun, has something to offer the community.

"Now is it worth $35 per month"? I would say it depends on the knowledge of the Student that is intending to use this device for training purposes.

If your brand new & don't know your way around Wing Chun than I would say most likely yes, it provides some type of structure & unit as well as it is from the same source, well give or take a few haha.

Now if your well experienced and can see what is genuine, not that this is not. Than I would say you really have what you need so train more with that, so probably would not be worth your $35 instead spend it for a private lesson with your Sifu, would get more out of it.

So that's really all I can say to this thread without getting too personally involved which is never good over the Internet.

Haha confusing but hope it helps.

p.s. I'm glad your taking your training more seriously and am looking for ways to train with Geezer, he's a great guy! Lot to offer...

Enjoy

Also p.s.s Addendum, If your brand new and have a Sifu it may or may not be useful as it may just confuse you & the instructions your Sifu is providing so take that into consideration as well but still decent knowledge provided none the less.

 

[mook jong man]

I just found this today while browsing WC videos. Benny Meng of the VT Museum started an online learning program similar to what you see with Michael Wong and Jin Yeung (or is it Young, sorry) The difference is that this is not free, it costs 35 bucks/mo to subscribe to current and future videos within the curriculum. Here are some sample clips from the training videos

Intermediate Lap Sau

Pak Sau

What do you guys think about this? In my opinion, the content is good. I'm kind of disappointed they mixed in the old videos instead of making new ones and supplementing that with Chu Shong Tin's seminar (which I've seen btw). If you check out the SNT curriculum page, you'll see what I mean. These videos come from the VHS tape they made a long while back.

http://vtm-dlp.com/catalogue/snt/snt.html

Utilizing both videos does make it easier to understand but I think it would have been more helpful if it was more structured and step by step rather than giving us the run-down and then covering finer points through the seminar.

Once it gets into the new videos though, it gets a lot better. He goes through the lesson explaining the details and showing us the application and it's different variations. This is the kind of step by step I was talking about.

Having gone through both Jin's and Michael Wong's lessons, I would say that the lessons are on par. They are all valuable as they have something different to teach. For instance, Michael Wong focuses on adapting WC to real life situations and Jin focuses on body structure and concepts. Both of them actually compliment each other very well.

As for the value, the catch is that you'll be paying 35 a month for a month but you'll be waiting for new videos to be created and uploaded. Once you've seen and practiced all there is, the subscription loses it's value very quickly. Personally, I prefer Michael and Jin's model however I am drawn to what Benny Meng has to offer.

I only watched the first two clips because my internet connection is really slow.
From the bits I saw it was nothing ground breaking , pretty basic really.
With the first clip the major difference I saw with the way he did lap sau and the way we do it is that his Wu Sau hand was right back.

Ours is forward and in line with our Bong Sau , both making contact with the opponents punching arm , so that they both support each other .
As we roll up into Bong Sau our Wu Sau or Dai Sau is driving up so that the opponents strike is deflected up .

Having our Wu Sau already in a forward position supporting our Bong Sau means we can absorb greater force and our Wu Sau is already in position to latch their attacking arm down rather than having to travel from further back.
It might seem like a trivial difference but nano seconds count in Chi Sau sparring and in real fighting.

In the second clip I am in agreement with the contact point of his Pak Sau because the heel of the palm is in the natural line of the bone structure of the forearm.

I don't know whether he was trying to cater for beginners by just giving them a simple straight punch defence or not .
But we prefer to use the Pak Sau mainly for breaking through a guard , its pretty low on my list as a deflection to a straight punch I must say.

The reason for this is that the palm heel area is a very small surface area in which to intercept someones wrist at very high speed.

In comparison , the surface area when using a Tan Sau or counterpunch is a lot larger using the forearm to intercept , this is a lot more forgiving at very high speed and pretty much only has to be placed on the centreline in order to make contact rather than trying to parry across with a Pak Sau .

Plus the fact that it is rather passive in execution , only turning the incoming force away laterally , even though it can be followed up almost at the same time with a strike from your other hand.

The Tan Sau or using your centreline punch to intercept are very invasive and aggressive right from the get go.
The opponent is immediately on the defensive as the techniques can deflect and strike through in one motion using only the one arm.

The driving elbow force inherent in these techniques will also have a much more adverse effect on the opponents structure , often times smashing straight through and collapsing their arms and affecting their balance Mainly because it is aimed at the centreline rather than merely redirecting force sideways.

Pak Sau has its place as an emergency type technique if you haven't got time to mount a better defence , but it shouldn't be a go to technique for defence against straight punches.

There are superior techniques that are a lot more economical and indeed much safer for the user.

PS. Don't be so disrespectful to Geezer , the bloke was probably already training in Wing Chun while you were still on your mummy's tit.

 

[coffeerox]

You want feedback, accept that you're not going to like all of it.

I WASN'T ASKING FOR FEEDBACK FOR MYSELF

I WASN'T ASKING FOR SELF-TRAINING FEEDBACK

THAT IS COMPLETELY OFF-TOPIC

Tensei85 and mook jong man's posts were exactly the kind of discussion I was looking for. Instead I'm getting RAGGED ON!!! How the hell do you think I'm going to react to it? Defensively of course. You and other people are challenging me hard and I'm hitting back. I don't care who it is.

I stated a true fact. You are NOT Bruce Lee. Lee was traditionally trained, you are not. Lee is considered a martial arts genius, acknowledged by serious players in the arts as such. You're a kid learning from books and videos making an *** out of himself on a web forum full of traditional martial artists. I have no idea of your ethnicity, so can't say if you and he are both Chinese, however Lee is dead, and you are not. So I have listed at least 3 verifiable ways you are NOT like Bruce Lee.

Your problem is that you think I'm trying to "BE" like Bruce Lee and I'm not. I'm merely following his research and teachings. Just because I understand what he is saying and you don't doesn't mean you can discredit me and my intelligence.

I read the Tao of Jeet Kune Do. I took that and used it in a different direction, but still kept the same concept. You and anybody else can criticize me all you want for it but I'm not going to change my mind.

2- Pay careful attention to the part about "Challenge Posts".

Practice what you preach. Don't challenge me and say all these things when it's off-topic and then expect me not to react this way.

Now, if you wish to continue to post about training off videos and books, accept the fact that the majority of the members here look at that material as supplemental at best, and you'll continually be reminded of that.

That's fine but that was not the topic of this thread. *I* was not a topic of this thread until people MADE ME the topic of this thread. This thread was not about self-training and it was made into one. You're not listening to me. Of course you're not because you're too busy being right that you don't see you're wrong.

Bob Hubbard. You don't like me very much, you don't like what I believe in, and you react according to that. I don't blame you. What I really criticize you on is that you are an administrator and you don't hold yourself up to that standard. You're going around flaunting your power like every other admin and mod I've seen. You can't hold your ground in a real conversation so what are you gonna do, ban me? LOL that's all you can do. I bet talking is all you can do in real life too.

Seriously. Forget what I've said in the past, and just treat me like a human being, because that is what we all would like to be treated. I haven't done anything to you to deserve this treatment. I've shown nothing but respect towards you but you've shown nothing but contempt for me. It may or may not be the actual truth, but that is the way *I* see and feel about it, so that is the way it is. How you react is up to you.