Weng Chun Chi Sau & chinese wresting?

JadecloudAlchemist

Master of Arts
Joined
Feb 12, 2007
Messages
1,877
Reaction score
82
Location
Miami,Florida
How would you suggest countering a Bagua fighter using Wing Chun?
One does straight lines and one goes around straight lines using angles though both are not absolutes.

There was a famous fight between Bagua(circling) and Xingyi(straight line)

Neither could defeat the other thus the legend is you see both training in each other art.
 

Xue Sheng

All weight is underside
Joined
Jan 8, 2006
Messages
32,551
Reaction score
7,174
Location
North American Tectonic Plate
How would you suggest countering a Bagua fighter using Wing Chun?

To me questions like this are much the same as how would you suggest a Wing Chun person roller skates or how would you suggest a wing Chun person eats lunch or what is the best way for a Wing Chun person to get through airport security

There really is no answer since no 2 people are exactly the same and most will approach it differently

If you are looking to standardize a wing chun response to bagua all I can say is ultimately the wing chun person will lose since you will only have one response and no 2 bagua fighters are going to approach the fight the same way and much of their response will depend on the force and energy thrown at them by the wing chun person. Best to train wing chun and forget about how to defeat style A or how to best style B IMHO and just trust in your training of Wing Chun.

And more to JadecloudAlchemist's post. How would a wing chun person fight a Bagua/Xingyi person that might be switching styles on you during the fight. Or a Shanxi style Xingyiquan person that learned circle walking as part of Xingyiquan or Gao style Bagua person that trained linear attacks? There is no answer.

Just train wing chun, use what you learn and if you did it right it should work for you just fine
 

Yoshiyahu

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
1,351
Reaction score
14
Location
St.Louis Missouri
Well to answer the question how WC guy roller skates I can share that with you...typically I roller skate in linear path although we are skating in the circle my leg movements are linear. I tend to crazy legs on two wheels and also sometimes I crazy leg on one foot. I also do some oneleg spins. I don't do splits on skates any more...I need to get that flexibility back. But I can also skate from side body stance similiar to a horse stance only with both toes pointing outwards...pretty cool huh?



To me questions like this are much the same as how would you suggest a Wing Chun person roller skates or how would you suggest a wing Chun person eats lunch or what is the best way for a Wing Chun person to get through airport security

There really is no answer since no 2 people are exactly the same and most will approach it differently

If you are looking to standardize a wing chun response to bagua all I can say is ultimately the wing chun person will lose since you will only have one response and no 2 bagua fighters are going to approach the fight the same way and much of their response will depend on the force and energy thrown at them by the wing chun person. Best to train wing chun and forget about how to defeat style A or how to best style B IMHO and just trust in your training of Wing Chun.

And more to JadecloudAlchemist's post. How would a wing chun person fight a Bagua/Xingyi person that might be switching styles on you during the fight. Or a Shanxi style Xingyiquan person that learned circle walking as part of Xingyiquan or Gao style Bagua person that trained linear attacks? There is no answer.

Just train wing chun, use what you learn and if you did it right it should work for you just fine
 

dungeonworks

Black Belt
Joined
May 7, 2006
Messages
540
Reaction score
18
How would you suggest countering a Bagua fighter using Wing Chun?

Watch what comes in, avoid or redirect the attack, follow it back in and attack off of that. The round kick in that video? Easy, front kick the hip and follow up with punching or move in and jam him up.

Outside of Wing Chun? Dodge the kick, shoot for a takedown since round kicks are a ripe invitation for them in most instances, and work from there depending upon the millions of variables that would create....work for dominant position, choke, punch, gouge, poke eyes...whatever presents itself.

Kickboxing response, I'd slam out a hard kick at the rear leg...again, entirely depends on the millions of variables that could happen. It's the same with anything for me when fighting....I don't think, just react or bait for a reaction.
 

dungeonworks

Black Belt
Joined
May 7, 2006
Messages
540
Reaction score
18
Also, I don't know anything about Bagua so I wouldn't have a formulated plan, just response to stimuli and energy given at the moment. I am new still to Wing Chun (by Wing Chun standards) and am not ready to use it if it doesn't come out as a reaction.

I cannot understand why you often ask about Wing Chun vs (Inster Art Here) when the focus of it isn't on "style vs style" so much as sticking to the principles and acting/reacting regardless??? I am taught it is not so much a techique based art but a principle based art to be used from Wing Chun structures....something to that effect. That is how I understand it anyway. Also, I still do not see what people mean when they claim Wing Chun was meant to be learned fast because I have not seen anything learned fast at this point (1 year). Don't read that as I don't think it works because I am not saying that...just that it is not learned fast as some claim. Boxing, Kickboxing, Karate, MMA/Grappling, and even Tae Kwon Do I learned relatively quick and was able to use it within months at a basic level. Sensitivy, which Wing Chun is ultra heavy on is not learned quick for me. I have sensitivity in the other arts I mentioned, but Wing Chun has it down to a curricular science and sylabus. Sure, the movements in the forms are quickly memorized, but to the point of fighting using WC principles excusively and adeptly? No. I don't see where that comes quickly...not yet, unless there is an epiphany awaiting in my near future. The hard work perfecting this is the addictive quality of this style for me. It is incredibly deep and the fact that the forms (...or kata where I come from) have sooo much to do with the art and what is practiced outside of the forms is really good to see. In Karate and TKD, the forms were hardly used for fighting application and were more "catalog" of techniques than utilitarian in their use. From what I can see with WC, the forms are the foundation and everything to the style. Karate and TKD technique could be learned without kata and likely why many see "kata" as useless. I liked kata as a cool down or meditative tool, but the combinations of moves were out dated IMVHO.
 

Yoshiyahu

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
1,351
Reaction score
14
Location
St.Louis Missouri
I don't know about karate katas. but I see some videos on youtube of karate master using moves from the kata...the katas contain chin na and arm breaks leg breaks. But most people who take TKD or Karate only really focus on the punches and the kicks. But not much else...Also Karate at upper levels deals with sensitivity but you don't start learning about flow,sensitivy and soft force until your black belt. With Wing Chun you start learning right away...

Why some say WC is fast to learn...Is because historically it only took three years to learn the entire system. Some schools still teach it that way...others make you wait years before going to next level. So some people teach the system slower than others...

As for fighting with WC...It depends. If you spar do you only attempt to use WC or do you fall back on other arts too??? If you spar all the time with friends using only WC you will suck at first...but after a couple of months many things will start opening up to you. Later on those things you start to realize will become accessible in fighting situtation after many hours of meditation and drilling.



Some Teachers make you wait before fighting with WC. Some teachers only have you do chi sau and dan chi sau and drills but no free sparring???


It depends on the teacher. But if your already able to hold your own in a fight...you don't need the sifu to teach you so much how to fight with a new system. You just need learn applications and drill them. An when your on your own...Spar with others...When it gets warming I have to start meeting people in my area who train other arts too. I plan on spending alot time sparring this summer.

But as for WC...your fairly new...you only have the first form and maybe learning the second. I suggest practicing all the different blocks of Wing chun along with practicing all your punches and kicks in the air that you know. Then doing it over and over again will help open your mind up.


Also, I don't know anything about Bagua so I wouldn't have a formulated plan, just response to stimuli and energy given at the moment. I am new still to Wing Chun (by Wing Chun standards) and am not ready to use it if it doesn't come out as a reaction.

I cannot understand why you often ask about Wing Chun vs (Inster Art Here) when the focus of it isn't on "style vs style" so much as sticking to the principles and acting/reacting regardless??? I am taught it is not so much a techique based art but a principle based art to be used from Wing Chun structures....something to that effect. That is how I understand it anyway. Also, I still do not see what people mean when they claim Wing Chun was meant to be learned fast because I have not seen anything learned fast at this point (1 year). Don't read that as I don't think it works because I am not saying that...just that it is not learned fast as some claim. Boxing, Kickboxing, Karate, MMA/Grappling, and even Tae Kwon Do I learned relatively quick and was able to use it within months at a basic level. Sensitivy, which Wing Chun is ultra heavy on is not learned quick for me. I have sensitivity in the other arts I mentioned, but Wing Chun has it down to a curricular science and sylabus. Sure, the movements in the forms are quickly memorized, but to the point of fighting using WC principles excusively and adeptly? No. I don't see where that comes quickly...not yet, unless there is an epiphany awaiting in my near future. The hard work perfecting this is the addictive quality of this style for me. It is incredibly deep and the fact that the forms (...or kata where I come from) have sooo much to do with the art and what is practiced outside of the forms is really good to see. In Karate and TKD, the forms were hardly used for fighting application and were more "catalog" of techniques than utilitarian in their use. From what I can see with WC, the forms are the foundation and everything to the style. Karate and TKD technique could be learned without kata and likely why many see "kata" as useless. I liked kata as a cool down or meditative tool, but the combinations of moves were out dated IMVHO.
 

mook jong man

Senior Master
Joined
May 28, 2008
Messages
3,080
Reaction score
261
Location
Matsudo , Japan
I have sparred a Bagua man with the strikes being pulled , which on reflection was a mistake . A friend brought him into the academy to see how he would go against me .

The bloke was twice the size of me , he got set and I got set , I immediately stepped in with a Pak Sau and punch that would have splattered his nose across his face , he didn't react to it or acknowledge the strike because he didn't even see it .

Then he went straight into his spinning around routine , I continued to chase after him sticking to him like glue , you could'nt really gain any arm contact because he was spinning around so much . He did move around a lot using most of the space we were in , everytime he turned I threw elbows at his back , and palm strikes and punches at his kidneys .

After we finished he says , see that , I just struck you 3 times in the groin , he probably did , but what about in the first instance where my Pak Sau and punch probably would have knocked him out and the ten gazillion strikes I threw at his back and kidneys when he was turned away from me .

I just smiled to myself and left it at that , because he was a friend of my mates . The whole thing was a waste of time really , if you are going to spar somebody from another style make sure they acknowledge your strikes .

I know the Wing Chun hands are very fast and sometimes people don't see them , but I think the best way is to put on equipment and use semi contact so that they have to acknowledge that you have hit them , or they have hit you , otherwise it is just a waste of time .

I have to say the next guy he brought in to have a go , a bouncer at one of the pubs in Sydney was a lot more sensible , he just threw a couple of hooks at me which I countered and punched him lightly in the chest , he'd say yep you got me there , yep you got me there and later on I taught him for a couple of lessons .

I don't believe in hurting people to prove that your style is better than theirs , because if they have been training longer in their style they just might be better than you and everybody no matter who they are is susceptible to taking a hit .

But if you are going to do it pad up and put some equipment on , acknowledge that you have been hit and learn from it and try not to kill each other . You want to be able to grow to be an old Wing Chun student with all your faculties not one who's punch drunk .
 
OP
Si-Je

Si-Je

Master Black Belt
Joined
Sep 14, 2006
Messages
1,033
Reaction score
17
Location
Texas
Mook! Your naughty! lol!
Sifu's my WC dummy on occasion, that's why I started that thread on "living, breathing, WC dummy." :)
That's a great drill, especially when he's teaching me something new to do in chi sau or I'm having trouble with an application.
My footwork is horrible, gotten so rusty. Must start doing that all day around the house. Then add the dai sau, to bong sau, to tan sau stuff he likes to have me do now. (we sneak in a dai sau right before bong sau to get more structure and forward force on the bong sau, and to make sure we get turned INTO bong sau and not just throw it out there to collapse.) But, you knew that. ;)
Dai sau, the hidden move in Si Lim Tao....

But, I definately need to move more in my chi sau. I'm too stationary. Sifu says that I'm at where I'm supposed to be and just now getting to the level to step more, but, I'm the impatient one. So much WC doesn't make sence to me the way it's taught. They only train the beginnings of the actual motion you'll need to complete in the street. (I know, I know, because your a beginner) But, I didn't understand what the hell I was doing until I got to the level where the forward motion was being completed. connect the dots.
So, I show the students the beginning technique that their learning, and then show them where their goal is to GO with it when then get their stance, kick, deflection, and chainpunching all into it at once. That takes the confused looks off faces alot, and they drill more because now they have a GOAL.
;)
 

Yoshiyahu

Master Black Belt
Joined
Jul 1, 2008
Messages
1,351
Reaction score
14
Location
St.Louis Missouri
I have actually be working on techniques with out the motions more. To be like immovable mountain. When I was beginner I was really good At just standing in one place an blocking on coming attacks from two the three guys with out get struck. Now I suck. I am so use to skill and movement I don't have the same skills as I did back then. I have been working on standing in one place an firing off techinques. Because sometimes In a fight you don't have any where to move forward to. Your like in bath room fighting or a stall. Forward pressure will get you no where. No room to do anything but trap,punch,deflect and shift. May be some C-Steps or small side steps but no real full front steps. I have been in situtations where you don't have real room to move. An you have to defend in YGKYM. Not good if your not use it.



So I think its beneficial to practice both. WC actually trains you to use one hand, Fight in the dark, Fight in the clinch(Inside), Fight with your back against the wall, Fight on knees and to fight in any given sitituation. I believe the techniques in static stance teach you how to defend and attack with out needing to move backwards or forwards. Which is a benefit. I believe this to be a Kung of Wing Chun!


Mook! Your naughty! lol!
Sifu's my WC dummy on occasion, that's why I started that thread on "living, breathing, WC dummy." :)
That's a great drill, especially when he's teaching me something new to do in chi sau or I'm having trouble with an application.
My footwork is horrible, gotten so rusty. Must start doing that all day around the house. Then add the dai sau, to bong sau, to tan sau stuff he likes to have me do now. (we sneak in a dai sau right before bong sau to get more structure and forward force on the bong sau, and to make sure we get turned INTO bong sau and not just throw it out there to collapse.) But, you knew that. ;)
Dai sau, the hidden move in Si Lim Tao....

But, I definately need to move more in my chi sau. I'm too stationary. Sifu says that I'm at where I'm supposed to be and just now getting to the level to step more, but, I'm the impatient one. So much WC doesn't make sence to me the way it's taught. They only train the beginnings of the actual motion you'll need to complete in the street. (I know, I know, because your a beginner) But, I didn't understand what the hell I was doing until I got to the level where the forward motion was being completed. connect the dots.
So, I show the students the beginning technique that their learning, and then show them where their goal is to GO with it when then get their stance, kick, deflection, and chainpunching all into it at once. That takes the confused looks off faces alot, and they drill more because now they have a GOAL.
;)
 

Latest Discussions

Top