Weng Chun Chi Sau & chinese wresting?

Si-Je

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That Weng Chun style is my new fascination! I always wondered what the shaolin style of WC would look like. This seems like it would be what it might be.
I really like the way she uses her whole body when she does wrist rolls, and re-direction.
Their chi sau is fascinating too. Not as rigid and stationary as the chi sau I normally see and practice.
Meaning, when I do chi sau with my Sifu his pressure always moves me backwards until I get so pressured I tense up. I pivot when it's necessary but this doesn't seem to get the job done. And watching Weng Chun style chi sau (even though it's arm movements are much wider) the stepping around the persons force and stepping more into them and to the side accompanied with your bong sau or tan sau in Chi sau opened a whole new world to me in my application of chi sau.
I'm feeling like DUH, step into them and to their side when their force/pressure is too great!
Why no one do this? Why is everyone so stationary in chi sau?
I can understand being stationary to learn it at first, but as you advance wouldn't you practice chi sau as you would WC application? By moving into AND to the side of the opponent, turning their body and flowing around their force?

look at this video again.. my Sifu says it looks like they use the butterfly swords alot and base alot of their empty hand technique on the movements of the butterfly swords.
Chi Sau at 2:35

This video is cool too:
Weng Chun form at the beginning. Notice how they roll the torso with the hand and small wrist movements.
Neat dan chi? drill at 38 seconds..And it looks like their chi sau works in more close quarters than I've seen in other WT/WC styles chi sau. They almost look "jamed up" their so close, or collapsed. Their stance is very wide, looks like the butterfly sword stance, or the dragon pole stances.
You'll see at 3:18 their weapons stuff. Looks like they use the "escrima" style sticks just like they would the butterfly swords. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RuACNJIuMY
And the kicker, looks like chinese wrestling at 1:45, WC ground fighting techniques. Looks like suai chao takedowns and throws. (can't spell that, sorry. )

What are all ya'lls thoughts?
 
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Yoshiyahu

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Their chi sau is fascinating too. Not as rigid and stationary as the chi sau I normally see and practice.

At my Tai Chi class we do both Stationary Chi Sau then we go on to moving Chi Sau. We do of course push hands too. Both stationary and movement. But some bigger people prefet stationary. It allows them to use their power more. Like this one older guy. He loves to uproot you. Which means nothing to me. Because I am smaller guy so he can move out of my stance with enough strength I just continous hit him while he is uprooting. An this one guy did moving chi sau with one time...He is alot older an couldn't do it too well. He is more of non-movement type of guy. But some of the younger guys love to move an do chi sau. It eventually becomes a an out sparring match. Lol..

I can understand being stationary to learn it at first, but as you advance wouldn't you practice chi sau as you would WC application? By moving into AND to the side of the opponent, turning their body and flowing around their force?
 

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That Weng Chun style is my new fascination! I always wondered what the shaolin style of WC would look like. This seems like it would be what it might be.
I really like the way she uses her whole body when she does wrist rolls, and re-direction.
Their chi sau is fascinating too. Not as rigid and stationary as the chi sau I normally see and practice.
Meaning, when I do chi sau with my Sifu his pressure always moves me backwards until I get so pressured I tense up. I pivot when it's necessary but this doesn't seem to get the job done. And watching Weng Chun style chi sau (even though it's arm movements are much wider) the stepping around the persons force and stepping more into them and to the side accompanied with your bong sau or tan sau in Chi sau opened a whole new world to me in my application of chi sau.
I'm feeling like DUH, step into them and to their side when their force/pressure is too great!
Why no one do this? Why is everyone so stationary in chi sau?
I can understand being stationary to learn it at first, but as you advance wouldn't you practice chi sau as you would WC application? By moving into AND to the side of the opponent, turning their body and flowing around their force?

look at this video again.. my Sifu says it looks like they use the butterfly swords alot and base alot of their empty hand technique on the movements of the butterfly swords.
Chi Sau at 2:35

This video is cool too:
Weng Chun form at the beginning. Notice how they roll the torso with the hand and small wrist movements.
Neat dan chi? drill at 38 seconds..And it looks like their chi sau works in more close quarters than I've seen in other WT/WC styles chi sau. They almost look "jamed up" their so close, or collapsed. Their stance is very wide, looks like the butterfly sword stance, or the dragon pole stances.
You'll see at 3:18 their weapons stuff. Looks like they use the "escrima" style sticks just like they would the butterfly swords. ;)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9RuACNJIuMY
And the kicker, looks like chinese wrestling at 1:45, WC ground fighting techniques. Looks like suai chao takedowns and throws. (can't spell that, sorry. )

What are all ya'lls thoughts?

I don't know man the first thing that springs to my mind is Crouching Tiger , Hidden Dragon . It looks like somebody learnt a bit of Wing Chun and added it to Wu Shu . I didn't watch the whole clip , but the bit where she spins around with the knives that would be suicide .

The movements seem to be very big and flowery and not at all compact and direct like the Wing Chun I am used to. The Chi Sau they do seems to be very open and they are actually hunched over , it would be very interesting to see if they could stop a fast palm strike to the chest , I know I can't even if my Fook Sau is a little bit off center , let alone like theirs are .

The women is skilled obviously , but to me it looks like some one has taken Wing Chun and tried to jazz it up some what . There are some applications you could take from it and make them work , but the bulk of their techniques leave you too exposed for my liking .

I do agree with one thing you should move around in Chi Sau , Sigung says that it stops your thighs from tensing up , relaxed thighs are a very important part of the stance and teaches you to move your body as one unit .

As for moving to the side I would often trap people in chi sau sparring by reefing them off to the side with both hands ala Bil Gee and attack their blind side .
But still a very interesting video and good to see how other people do things .
 
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geezer

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Their chi sau is fascinating too. Not as rigid and stationary as the chi sau I normally see and practice.
Meaning, when I do chi sau with my Sifu his pressure always moves me backwards until I get so pressured I tense up. I pivot when it's necessary but this doesn't seem to get the job done. And watching Weng Chun style chi sau (even though it's arm movements are much wider) the stepping around the persons force and stepping more into them and to the side accompanied with your bong sau or tan sau in Chi sau opened a whole new world to me in my application of chi sau.

I never thought of good WT/WC chi sau as "stationary". You move with your opponent's force... always springing forward, flowing around, being pressed back, turning aside to spill the pressure, and springing forward again... with your hands, arms, legs, and body. The difference is that the movements are very small and economical. Never move an inch more than you have too.

The woman's movements in the video were elegant, powerful and beautiful. But, to me, they did not look as economical as the WT/WC I'm more familiar with.
 

kaizasosei

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First time i hear of the style...the lady looks quite tough. Pretty hot too. I'd keep my distance though until i know it's safe to make a move.


j
 
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Si-Je

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Well, if WC is from shaolin then it could have been wider when it was first conceived. I'd bet the boat opera people "tightened" up the techniques being that they were on a boat most of the time. Tighter quarters, fighting bandits and pirates and whatever travelling around.
Just a theory. :)

As for Chi sau being so stationary, that's just how I see alot of people practicing it in videos and in classes. They pivot and step in sometimes, but they don't move around the room like these folks do. I just liked it.
I'm little, I've got to move more like that, but more forward into partner. We've been working on that this week, otherwise I get pushed back when doing chi sau with Sifu Hubbie. And eventually get tense because I'm tired of getting pushed backward! Ack!
Pivot relieves some of the pressure, but then he pivots and I'm right back where I started, getting pushed backwards.
If I step and pivot to his side and move my butt, I get better results. Should've been taught that at the get go.
 

Yoshiyahu

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Well after practicing those steps for a long time one should automatically try to adapt them to Chi Sau. This could give you an advantage!



Well, if WC is from shaolin then it could have been wider when it was first conceived. I'd bet the boat opera people "tightened" up the techniques being that they were on a boat most of the time. Tighter quarters, fighting bandits and pirates and whatever travelling around.
Just a theory. :)

As for Chi sau being so stationary, that's just how I see alot of people practicing it in videos and in classes. They pivot and step in sometimes, but they don't move around the room like these folks do. I just liked it.
I'm little, I've got to move more like that, but more forward into partner. We've been working on that this week, otherwise I get pushed back when doing chi sau with Sifu Hubbie. And eventually get tense because I'm tired of getting pushed backward! Ack!
Pivot relieves some of the pressure, but then he pivots and I'm right back where I started, getting pushed backwards.
If I step and pivot to his side and move my butt, I get better results. Should've been taught that at the get go.
 
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Si-Je

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I went to TaiJi Legacy years ago when I first started taking WT/WC. The guys sparring were total line fighters. All they did was blast stright into eachother chainpunching and hook kicking. (never once did I see someone use Heel Kick) and bam! guess what? They both just there in the middle of the ring chainpunching the crap out of eachother. Looked like a cock fight! lol!
They fight, moving straight forward and go straight backwards.
Yuck, and I'll tell you why.
Would a female do this against a big guy? And not be defeated? Why chainpunch your opponent, if their doing the very same to you?
Move!
Move forward AND to the side. And these were advanced students competing from schools all over the nation, and some from overseas.
No body moves to the side in sparring, fighting?
Chi Sau competition was even worse. They just stayed there, stationary, not hardly kicking, no side stepping. Lots of pivots, but so what? Each hardly ever got the other trapped, hit, etc. What's the point of training for the stalemate?
These are two times where the WC training of each student should have become "live". You train like that in class stationary to learn chi sau, but now your SPARRING with Chi sau. Whether in Chi Sau competition or continious sparring free style. There was not "liveness", just programmed charging in chainpunching in advanced stance (man, I'm hating that C-stepping advanced stance more and more. It makes people one dimentional)
That stance should ONLY be used when wedging the opponents stance and structure. Not when your 5 feet or more from them "skipping" as you chain punch the air chasing after the opponent's face.
Just my opinion. Sorry, got a bit fussy there. :)
But, it does bother me. This is the attitude that gets Wing Chunners beat when going against a grappler, MT fighter, or boxer. Charging into "nothing", telegraphing their movments from a room away, it takes all the "deception" away from WC/WT. And it's predictable, readable, and anticipatable, thus easier to counter.

Stepping to the sides AND forward into opponent. Only chain punching when they are in range to actually hit. Using wedging stance (C-step, whatever) to trip, tip over, or attack the opponent's stance, turn them, etc. not as an actual "charging" stance. (Unless you're like Sifu Emin and can take one step in C-stepping, humbo stance and just ZOOM across the entire room in one motion! lol! wish I could do that!)
"Best way to not get hit, no be there." Mr. Miagai.
 

Yoshiyahu

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Yea well we use c-step, and also counter step or diamond step...this moves to your opponents side...we also have side step...which we have to use...because alot of the students are bigger than teachers...


I went to TaiJi Legacy years ago when I first started taking WT/WC. The guys sparring were total line fighters. All they did was blast stright into eachother chainpunching and hook kicking. (never once did I see someone use Heel Kick) and bam! guess what? They both just there in the middle of the ring chainpunching the crap out of eachother. Looked like a cock fight! lol!
They fight, moving straight forward and go straight backwards.
Yuck, and I'll tell you why.
Would a female do this against a big guy? And not be defeated? Why chainpunch your opponent, if their doing the very same to you?
Move!
Move forward AND to the side. And these were advanced students competing from schools all over the nation, and some from overseas.
No body moves to the side in sparring, fighting?
Chi Sau competition was even worse. They just stayed there, stationary, not hardly kicking, no side stepping. Lots of pivots, but so what? Each hardly ever got the other trapped, hit, etc. What's the point of training for the stalemate?
These are two times where the WC training of each student should have become "live". You train like that in class stationary to learn chi sau, but now your SPARRING with Chi sau. Whether in Chi Sau competition or continious sparring free style. There was not "liveness", just programmed charging in chainpunching in advanced stance (man, I'm hating that C-stepping advanced stance more and more. It makes people one dimentional)
That stance should ONLY be used when wedging the opponents stance and structure. Not when your 5 feet or more from them "skipping" as you chain punch the air chasing after the opponent's face.
Just my opinion. Sorry, got a bit fussy there. :)
But, it does bother me. This is the attitude that gets Wing Chunners beat when going against a grappler, MT fighter, or boxer. Charging into "nothing", telegraphing their movments from a room away, it takes all the "deception" away from WC/WT. And it's predictable, readable, and anticipatable, thus easier to counter.

Stepping to the sides AND forward into opponent. Only chain punching when they are in range to actually hit. Using wedging stance (C-step, whatever) to trip, tip over, or attack the opponent's stance, turn them, etc. not as an actual "charging" stance. (Unless you're like Sifu Emin and can take one step in C-stepping, humbo stance and just ZOOM across the entire room in one motion! lol! wish I could do that!)
"Best way to not get hit, no be there." Mr. Miagai.
 
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Si-Je

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Yea well we use c-step, and also counter step or diamond step...this moves to your opponents side...we also have side step...which we have to use...because alot of the students are bigger than teachers...

Those are all good, they get you wedged into the opponent. Do you C-step towards the opponent from 5 feet or more away? I've been seeing alot of this lately. People stepping 3-4-5 times in advanced stepping c-steping before the even reach the opponent. Chainpunching the air all the way there too. :)
 

mook jong man

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Well, if WC is from shaolin then it could have been wider when it was first conceived. I'd bet the boat opera people "tightened" up the techniques being that they were on a boat most of the time. Tighter quarters, fighting bandits and pirates and whatever travelling around.
Just a theory. :)

As for Chi sau being so stationary, that's just how I see alot of people practicing it in videos and in classes. They pivot and step in sometimes, but they don't move around the room like these folks do. I just liked it.
I'm little, I've got to move more like that, but more forward into partner. We've been working on that this week, otherwise I get pushed back when doing chi sau with Sifu Hubbie. And eventually get tense because I'm tired of getting pushed backward! Ack!
Pivot relieves some of the pressure, but then he pivots and I'm right back where I started, getting pushed backwards.
If I step and pivot to his side and move my butt, I get better results. Should've been taught that at the get go.

I was always told to manouver around a big heavy opponent as though they were a big heavy wooden dummy . If it takes too much effort to shift them , then shift your self instead .

In fact It might be a good exercise for you to do , to have your husband stand there with his arms out rigid like a wooden dummy and you move around him , keeping in contact with his arms and flowing around them with your various techniques .

Don't forget to use your legs as well , when you are on the outside of his arms pull him into low kicks with one or both hands to counter his range advantage .
P.S. please do not ask me how you can simulate the 3rd low arm. :uhohh:
 

Yoshiyahu

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Ha ha...no...I usually wait for the opponent to approach me an when they are in two to one front step distance or lunge step distance I move in with a front kick or kick to the shins. While chainpunching or attempting a wrist lock to punch.

C-step is manuever for when your in the clinch or trapping range...its not distance travel step...front step that kinda of lunges is good for taking distance..But people typically come to me..So i counter. Circle or side step. Bagua walking the circle works well with With Wing Chun. I think a stepping side kick helps bridge the gap too.

But five feet..wow..you might do a fifty to hundred c-steps...lol...thats not economical...in my opinion. WC steps like counter and c-step is for inside fighting mostly.

Those are all good, they get you wedged into the opponent. Do you C-step towards the opponent from 5 feet or more away? I've been seeing alot of this lately. People stepping 3-4-5 times in advanced stepping c-steping before the even reach the opponent. Chainpunching the air all the way there too. :)
 

mook jong man

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Those are all good, they get you wedged into the opponent. Do you C-step towards the opponent from 5 feet or more away? I've been seeing alot of this lately. People stepping 3-4-5 times in advanced stepping c-steping before the even reach the opponent. Chainpunching the air all the way there too. :)

What is C- stepping ?
Yeah throwing out attacks before your in range is a waste of energy and just plain stupid. There is a critical distance where your attacks will land and any attack you launch out of this critical distance will quickly be countered .

This distance can be increased with skill of course , I remember my own Sifu could bridge a gap with a charging knee and cover well over 3 metres in the blink of an eye . But for the average student it means you should wait until the attacker is in kicking range . Be like a cat , don't pounce until it is too late for the prey to get away .


Si-Je you are definitely on the right track with your stepping movements , what works for your husband will not necessarely work for you , I learned very early on from experimentation that a backward step with one leg pivoting the whole body will counter a powerful forward charge , same thing goes for stepping forward 45 degrees as well .

You can't always depend on a stationary pivot , sometimes the force can be too great , especially if your training with a big Wing Chun guy who knows how to move their weight . The picture you paint of the Wing Chun guys trying to out chain punch each other is comical I must say , for heavens sake learn to develop the skill of throwing a low heel kick when the hands are occupied .

If for whatever reason some one is matching your hand speed or you just can't break through their defences start throwing low heel kicks , give them something else to think about . Its not likely they will be able to stop a fast low heel kick while their hands are occupied , remember if you can't break through in a matter of seconds start throwing those kicks .

I just happen to know a good exercise that you can use to cultivate this reflex , when you are doing chi sau , start moving forward doing a light low heel kick to your partners knee with each step you take .

Go up the room a couple of metres then give your partner a go coming back , do the same thing with the hook kick , hook kick the inside of thigh , hook kick the outside of the thigh and then combine it with low heel kick, each time you step one of your legs does an inside or outside hook kick and the other leg does a low heel kick .

One of the problems that students have with this exercise is that because they are thinking about their legs they slack off on the forward force in their chi sau , make sure you keep a continuous flow of forward force through your arms even though you are thinking about your legs .

If you have a forward force that comes on and off each time you raise your leg a good Wing Chun man can detect that shift in weight and know that you are about to kick and be able to counter it by hitting you , throwing you off to the side , or simply jamming your kick.
 

geezer

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Do you C-step towards the opponent from 5 feet or more away? I've been seeing alot of this lately. People stepping 3-4-5 times in advanced stepping c-steping before the even reach the opponent. Chainpunching the air all the way there too. :)

Mook's right. Chasing after your opponent, throwing air-punches when you are clearly out of range is a pointless waste of energy. If you can't catch 'em, it's probably better it hang back in character-two stance looking vulnerable, and when they move in to attack you, explode forward!

As regards fighting your hubby, see if you can slip behind him and punch him in the back. I can't tell you exactly how to do that... but my wife did it to me and it hurt like hell. And she doesn't even know Wing Tsun. I think it's some kind of devious ability carried in the XX chromasomes. The longer I stay married, the more I believe the Yim Wing Chun legend!
 

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....As regards fighting your hubby, see if you can slip behind him and punch him in the back. I can't tell you exactly how to do that... but my wife did it to me and it hurt like hell. And she doesn't even know Wing Tsun. I think it's some kind of devious ability carried in the XX chromasomes. The longer I stay married, the more I believe the Yim Wing Chun legend!

That hurt laughing the hot coffee out of my nose! :) I can relate to this Geezer!
 

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I don't know why they are chain punching the air..never heard that one. Unless their punches are being blocked by their opponent...What do you guys think of this video...do you think this is Wing Chun answer to Muay Thai fighthers?:

http://video.google.com/videosearch...-8&sa=N&tab=wv#q=bruce li&hl=en&emb=0&start=0

I don't see what you mean??? Looks just like any counter punch with spinning kick from Tae Kwon Do or Karate style...just a little more flowery, for lack of better word.

Bagua is more internal style like Tai Chi correct??? My friend takes it and like it a lot.
 

Xue Sheng

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At my Tai Chi class we do both Stationary Chi Sau then we go on to moving Chi Sau. We do of course push hands too. Both stationary and movement. But some bigger people prefet stationary. It allows them to use their power more. Like this one older guy. He loves to uproot you. Which means nothing to me. Because I am smaller guy so he can move out of my stance with enough strength I just continous hit him while he is uprooting. An this one guy did moving chi sau with one time...He is alot older an couldn't do it too well. He is more of non-movement type of guy. But some of the younger guys love to move an do chi sau. It eventually becomes a an out sparring match. Lol..

Just as a note; Taiji push hands is Tuishou, there are just various types of tuishou from stationary to free style.

Chi sau is Cantonese for the Mandarin tuishou.
 

Yoshiyahu

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How would you suggest countering a Bagua fighter using Wing Chun?


I don't see what you mean??? Looks just like any counter punch with spinning kick from Tae Kwon Do or Karate style...just a little more flowery, for lack of better word.

Bagua is more internal style like Tai Chi correct??? My friend takes it and like it a lot.
 

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