Should peak physical fitness be a requirement for promotion to Black Belt?

[K-man]

To me, fitness has nothing to do with a grading, unless it is a prerequisite for whatever reason someone likes to give. I have one guy training presently who will be about 70 years of age if he gets to grade for black. I don't care if he can't do 100 push-ups. I don't care if he can't run 5 km. What I want to know is, does he know the course material? Can he make the techniques work? Would he be capable of defending himself if the need arose and, mainly, is he ready to be a black belt?

Now if you have a style that says you have to go 20 2 minute rounds or more, so be it. That is the requirement of that school. In 20 years most of those guys won't be still training and of those that are, many wouldn't be capable of going those 20 rounds. All that peak fitness does at the time of the grading is demonstrate that you can achieve a certain level of fitness if needed.

If you are training a martial art for competition it is totally different. Your fitness produces the edge you may need to win. But then, you don't need the fitness to grade. You need the fitness to compete.

I am not saying that fat, lazy slobs with zero fitness would make good black belts. All I am saying that a good general level of fitness is all that is required.
:asian:

 

[granfire]

To me, fitness has nothing to do with a grading, unless it is a prerequisite for whatever reason someone likes to give. I have one guy training presently who will be about 70 years of age if he gets to grade for black. I don't care if he can't do 100 push-ups. I don't care if he can't run 5 km. What I want to know is, does he know the course material? Can he make the techniques work? Would he be capable of defending himself if the need arose and, mainly, is he ready to be a black belt?

Now if you have a style that says you have to go 20 2 minute rounds or more, so be it. That is the requirement of that school. In 20 years most of those guys won't be still training and of those that are, many wouldn't be capable of going those 20 rounds. All that peak fitness does at the time of the grading is demonstrate that you can achieve a certain level of fitness if needed.

If you are training a martial art for competition it is totally different. Your fitness produces the edge you may need to win. But then, you don't need the fitness to grade. You need the fitness to compete.

I am not saying that fat, lazy slobs with zero fitness would make good black belts. All I am saying that a good general level of fitness is all that is required.
:asian:

well put!

 

[jezr74]

I think fit enough to pass the grading is the minimum. I'd like to think that the school would be up front about the requirement from the time I joined, and then I would assess it at that time if I would go the membership.

Personally, I don't think peak fitness has anything to do with it. And I would'nt confuse it with correlation to ability or skill.

 

[geezer]

You can be fit and healthy pretty much forever.

Ha. Life is a lot shorter than most people realize.

 

[punisher73]

It depends on what your goals are for your school/system etc. Are you looking to insure that the art is passed on to the next generation? Are you looking to have a tough school of fighters? Are you competition based? It can go on and on.

I have known people who wouldn't be able to fight their way out of a paper bag, but could perform the techniques and explain how they worked and demonstrate that. They were great teachers, should they not have a black belt because they weren't in great shape?

I have known people who were very athletic and good fighters, but could not perform higher level things or do the material. They were just good at fighting and couldn't explain what they were doing to save their life. Should they be a blackbelt even though they can give nothing back to the art or insure that it is passed on to the next generation?

"Fitness" is a nebulous term. "Peak Physical Fitness" is even more so. Martial arts are not about a planned sporting event that you reach a "peak" for. If you are talking about "peaking" then it is not for a life long pursuit. Now if you are taking about raising your fitness levels based on the INDIVIDUAL, then that is a whole other topic. I remember reading an essay by a very high ranking Uechi-Ryu teacher that was asked to sit in as an honorary guest for some blackbelt testings, and him watching a lady in her 60's performing her kata and basics very well. She had a firm grasp on the material and could also explain it very well. She was failed because she could not spar the 5 rounds against 20 year old BB's. He relayed that he was disgusted with this because of mismatched goals and expectations for differing age groups.

I have also seen discussion on how much is adequate when it comes to fitness. You have some that want to find their physical ceiling and constantly push themselves harder and harder. Many burn themselves out as they get older, or stop because they wore their bodies out and have long term injuries. If "self-defense" is your goal, it doesn't make sense to do that. I have also seen people make the argument based on "averages". If we liken "fitness" on a bell curve, if we raise our fitness levels only slightly higher than that, then we are better than 85% of the population (70% average and below average). This allows you to have more time spent on other things, such as your technique etc. if you don't have the time to do physical training all the time.

I think that physical fitness is important, but it should not be the only criteria for martial arts.

 

[K-man]

Ha. Life is a lot shorter than most people realize.

And as time goes by it's harder and harder to pick yourself up from the floor.

 

[wingchun100]

To me, fitness has nothing to do with a grading, unless it is a prerequisite for whatever reason someone likes to give. I have one guy training presently who will be about 70 years of age if he gets to grade for black. I don't care if he can't do 100 push-ups. I don't care if he can't run 5 km. What I want to know is, does he know the course material? Can he make the techniques work? Would he be capable of defending himself if the need arose and, mainly, is he ready to be a black belt?

Now if you have a style that says you have to go 20 2 minute rounds or more, so be it. That is the requirement of that school. In 20 years most of those guys won't be still training and of those that are, many wouldn't be capable of going those 20 rounds. All that peak fitness does at the time of the grading is demonstrate that you can achieve a certain level of fitness if needed.

If you are training a martial art for competition it is totally different. Your fitness produces the edge you may need to win. But then, you don't need the fitness to grade. You need the fitness to compete.

I am not saying that fat, lazy slobs with zero fitness would make good black belts. All I am saying that a good general level of fitness is all that is required.
:asian:

I see your point. I mean, will a 70 year old man be able to kick as fast as a 20 year old? Probably not. But does that mean he doesn't know what he's doing? No, he can still get the grasp of the art and its techniques.

 

[drop bear]

Ha. Life is a lot shorter than most people realize.

It is if you don't care about fitness.

Nobody else watchers are you fitter than a pensioner?

 

[Pwen Arye]

Excellent point... I'm certainly not skinny or ripped. But I'm more than reasonably fit...

Yeah being fit and being physically appealing are two different things. When we sign up at Universal Kempo we are giving a testing cycle sheet that has all of the exercises and techniques that we need to complete for each belt test.

Black Belt Testing

10 sets of floor wipes aka "mop the floors"

100 push ups

100 sit ups

120 second tricep hold (can only drop three times)

Jump ropes 8 minutes 2 times

squats 50 times 2 times

ladders

The above can be modified for older students.

 

[yak sao]

I don't run unless I am on fire.

Stop, Drop and Roll

 

[MJS]

Is it only about meeting the requirements of an Art's knowledge, history, techniques etc. and fulfilling the required hours/classes - or does a student of an art also have to be in his/her peak physical shape compared to where they were when they started?

I can certainly see a few sides of the coin here. Obviously, as it was already said, by K-Man, I believe, being able to have skill, perform the material properly, having a strong working knowledge of it, etc, is important. Of course, on the flip side, I also feel that the person performing, should have some reasonable stamina, and not get gassed in a minute or two.

I'll admit...in all the years that I've trained, the training I'm doing now, is by far, the most physically demanding. My teacher is old school, and his classes are no joke. Even the beginner class is hard. However, my teacher isn't cold hearted..lol..so if you need to slow down or stop for a second, that's fine. In addition to the conditioning that we get during class, I also workout on my own, both at the gym, lifting weights, cardio, etc, as well as the body weight exercises, at home. IMO, any little thing I can do to help myself, is a plus. I'll pick things that suck, such as burpees, mountain climbers, set a timer, and do sets of them for a set amount of time. It sucks, but IMO, it's doing stuff like this, that'll help you down the road. No, I'm not in peak shape, but I'm in a hell of a lot better shape now, than I was before I joined this dojo.

Belt tests: Well, yeah, they're hard. By the time you're done, you're soaked with sweat, and you know you put in the blood, sweat and tears. If you don't, then you probably won't pass. Each test ends with sparring. Depending on the rank you're testing for, that'll determine how many people you fight and for how long. My first belt test, I think I fought 2 people...that was it! My last test....I fought 2 people, for a total of 4 times. One black belt, and one brown belt, for what seemed like an eternity, even though it was only about a minute. But when you don't get more than a quick 20sec rest in between...well, needless to say, by the 3rd fight, it was more survival than anything else. And IMO, this is what they want to see. They want to see you busting your ***, giving 120%, even though you're sucking wind, and at what point you'll either just give up or reach down, and muster up that burst of energy, and pull thru.

So yes, I think people should be in reasonable shape, but consideration should be given accordingly.

 

[WaterGal]

I think that having peak physical fitness to perform your system efficiently would be a must and also a by product of good training!

When you say that, what do you consider to be "peak" physical fitness? I suspect people are defining that in different ways. When I think "peak" fitness, I think of marathon runners and Navy SEALs, people that exercise near the maximum of what the normal human body can do.

 

[Buka]

When you say that, what do you consider to be "peak" physical fitness? I suspect people are defining that in different ways. When I think "peak" fitness, I think of marathon runners and Navy SEALs, people that exercise near the maximum of what the normal human body can do.

In the OP I was referring to a student's own "peak" fitness, which would be the best shape they've been in since they started.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

but how long can you hold your peak?

If we are talking being at your absolute peak fitness then you will not be able to hold it indefinitely and will have some ups and downs. However, you can be at a high level of fitness in that moment. So while walking around at your absolute peak in fitness would be hard to maintain you can walk around and be in top physical shape during your daily life. I believe in being in great physical shape as a martial practitioner. Granted there will be ups and downs, injuries, etc. but we can strive and achieve physical fitness at a high level for our entire life provided we do not have a debilitating injury, illness, etc. Each individuals peak physical fitness is of course determined by their unique characteristics and everyone will be different. However, we can all strive to be our absolute best if possible. Having great physical fitness will also be a huge advantage if you ever have to use your martial skills in a violent confrontation. Not a little advantage a huge advantage! This needs to be understood by practitioners because being out of shape puts you at a disadvantage to utilize your martial skills. Way to many martial practitioner's let their physical conditioning go as they achieve advanced skill sets and technique. They may think that their technique and skill will carry them through. This in my opinion is a huge mistake and one to be avoided if possible. Instead try to be in great physical shape. The best you can be for your individual body. Flexible and strong with great cardiovascular health. If you can do this then you will in the end reap the benefits during your everyday life and also if you ever have to use your martial skills in a violent encounter. At my age I try to continuously stay in shape and my every day activities help to do that. Every day I dedicate practice time to myself on top of teaching multiple times during the course of a day. (private and semi-private lessons) I also walk, run, bike, hike, climb, swim, etc. every day. Some kind of activity to stay in shape on top of lifting kettlebells, heavy ropes, Indian dumbells, calisthentics, stretching, etc. Some day's are hard, some day's are light but always there is some activity to stay fit and in shape. Why do I do it? Well I like it but also I maintain focus and fitness on top of martial practice so that I will be functional for the next violent encounter I might endure. It also helps me keep up with the eighteen and twenty year olds during training!

 

[K-man]

If we are talking being at your absolute peak fitness then you will not be able to hold it indefinitely and will have some ups and downs. However, you can be at a high level of fitness in that moment. So while walking around at your absolute peak in fitness would be hard to maintain you can walk around and be in top physical shape during your daily life. I believe in being in great physical shape as a martial practitioner. Granted there will be ups and downs, injuries, etc. but we can strive and achieve physical fitness at a high level for our entire life provided we do not have a debilitating injury, illness, etc. Each individuals peak physical fitness is of course determined by their unique characteristics and everyone will be different. However, we can all strive to be our absolute best if possible. Having great physical fitness will also be a huge advantage if you ever have to use your martial skills in a violent confrontation. Not a little advantage a huge advantage! This needs to be understood by practitioners because being out of shape puts you at a disadvantage to utilize your martial skills. Way to many martial practitioner's let their physical conditioning go as they achieve advanced skill sets and technique. They may think that their technique and skill will carry them through. This in my opinion is a huge mistake and one to be avoided if possible. Instead try to be in great physical shape. The best you can be for your individual body. Flexible and strong with great cardiovascular health. If you can do this then you will in the end reap the benefits during your everyday life and also if you ever have to use your martial skills in a violent encounter. At my age I try to continuously stay in shape and my every day activities help to do that. Every day I dedicate practice time to myself on top of teaching multiple times during the course of a day. (private and semi-private lessons) I also walk, run, bike, hike, climb, swim, etc. every day. Some kind of activity to stay in shape on top of lifting kettlebells, heavy ropes, Indian dumbells, calisthentics, stretching, etc. Some day's are hard, some day's are light but always there is some activity to stay fit and in shape. Why do I do it? Well I like it but also I maintain focus and fitness on top of martial practice so that I will be functional for the next violent encounter I might endure. It also helps me keep up with the eighteen and twenty year olds during training!

I agree with what you are saying but perhaps the coloured portion could be expanded. Deliberately letting your physical condition deteriorate is certainly stupid in a martial art/self defence context and in life generally. To perform at the very best you can requires you to have the very best level of fitness you could achieve. I don't believe this is possible for most people, if indeed any. Most people can maintain a reasonable level of fitness, for their age, if they make the right choices.

Like you, I try to maintain my fitness and to date have managed to mix it with those decades younger. Certainly technique and ability help me do that. But the OP was talking in terms of promotion to black belt.

If it is a requirement to be at 'peak' fitness to be awarded a black belt, should a person be required to relinquish his rank if his fitness level drops. The label on the tin says "Can of Worms".
:asian:

 

[geezer]

In the OP I was referring to a student's own "peak" fitness, which would be the best shape they've been in since they started.

OK, so imagine a pretty fit middle-aged guy starts training (or training again after a long time off) and regularly supplements his training with weight training and cardio (running and biking). He works hard, keeps to a good program, keeps charts, and makes progress. Unfortunately in these years back at training he also suffers injuries. Serious stuff. You know stuff like herniated disks, blown out knees, and the general decline that happens as you move from being late forty-ish to nearly sixty-ish.

That's my situation. And the situation of most of my peers who I began with back in the seventies. We all work hard, but fitness is a very relative thing. Robert is almost crippled with gout. Harry, who was once a TKD champeon has two artificial knees. And there are the older guys like Joy, who I see on occassion. He's almost deaf and definitely a bit heavy. Any of these guys can take care of themselves when it comes to self defense. You definitely don't want't to tick them off! And, they are each a font of wisdom. But at the peak of fitness? Hardley.

It's been about 28 years since I was last promoted in rank. I really want to get my next grade before I turn 60 next year. But I seriously doubt that I could safely get into the physical condition I was in back when I was about 52-54 (before my back and knee injuries) to get the rank. All I can do is train. Forget my doctor and the physical therapist who told me to give this stuff up. Listen to the other doctor (a former karateka) who says "procced , but carefully" ...and see how it goes.

 

[Big Don]

My Sifu tells a story of when GM Richard 'Huk' Planas came to teach a seminar years ago. It seems the host started off the class with push ups and other calisthenics. GM Planas asked if they taught fitness or Kenpo.
Fitness is a great thing to aspire to, but, if you're supposed to be learning a martial art, it is secondary at best.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

If it is a requirement to be at 'peak' fitness to be awarded a black belt, should a person be required to relinquish his rank if his fitness level drops. The label on the tin says "Can of Worms".
:asian:

Personally I do not believe in a person relinquishing anything that they have earned.


I am a proponent in the Martial Sciences of being in great physical shape. I see this as one of the key things in a martial practitioner's development. Attribute training, cardio training, technique training, etc. Each person will be of course different in what they can achieve as no to people are the same. What I believe is a great mistake is when someone gets a high technical skill set and let's their physical attribute training and cardio go by the way side. In self-defense being in shape may just be the one thing that carries you through a violent conflict. Even more than your technique. In order to make your technical skills work you probably have to have some level of fitness. Otherwise you just may not be able to implement your technique during a violent situation. This is after all a physical skill that is athletic. The more athletic and in shape you can be the better your likelihood of success. This is some thing we all need to understand!

 

[Jaeimseu]

IMO, instructors should strive to be in "decent" shape, especially if you list fitness as a benefit of your program. Having said that, if you aren't preparing for a 12 round fight, there's no true need to be in that kind of shape.

I guess I would hope that an instructor would be in comparatively better shape than an average person of the same age, or working to get there.

Sent from my SHV-E210K using Tapatalk

 

[K-man]

IMO, instructors should strive to be in "decent" shape, especially if you list fitness as a benefit of your program. Having said that, if you aren't preparing for a 12 round fight, there's no true need to be in that kind of shape.

I guess I would hope that an instructor would be in comparatively better shape than an average person of the same age, or working to get there.

I agree totally that all instructors should strive to be in 'decent shape'. I would go a bit further and say that the instructors should have been in decent shape to start with and should be making sure they are maintaining better shape than the average person full stop. At 65 I don't have an issue matching it with anyone of any age in normal training. Different if I was competing in tournaments but I have given those away. However, the average person on the street hasn't a lot of strength or fitness. If my level of fitness was comparable to the average person of my age I think I would be giving martial arts away and taking up lawn bowls.
:asian: