Black Belt Requirements - empty thy wallet

[toejam]

I study Kempo Karate and I am currently brown belt - it's been just over 3 years to get here. We have black belt requirements over the next 7 months (x amount of kicks, crunches, pushups, etc) which I can understand.

Part of the requirements though, is that we must attend 7 seminars in this time, each one ranging from $60 - $100+. The test itself is expected to be around $800 for black belt. From then on, classes go from $86 per month to $120 per month.

Is it normal that you are *required* to attend seminars in order to get your black belt? That seems like a bit of a racket to me. Along with upping your fees by almost $40 per month to get (from my observations of black belt classes) no real difference in training.

What's most dissappointing about this situation though, is the fact that they have totally thrown this on students of my level. None of these prices or fees were ever discussed or given to us up front. I feel this is just plain misleading and not a good way to run a business...despite the fact that I have a lot of respect for a few of the instructors at this school.

toey.

 

[stone_dragone]

I would agree that if these requirements are just now being thrust upon you, it is poor leadership at the very least and total BS at worst. I can personally understand being required to attend a certain # of seminars from white to black belt, but so many in such a short amount of time ... knda tosses up a red flag to me.

Please don't flame me, but is it possible that the information was presented earlier in the last 3 years and you missed it somewhere? I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

The price of the test is a little high, but I'm cheap The increase in fee's might be due to a higher level of education that you are going to recieve following promotion to shodan.

My two bits

 

[Lisa]

I am cheap too

I have to agree with stone_dragone that putting that much pressure to attend that many seminars in such a short period of time really throws up red flags.

What I have an even bigger problem with is the fact that you were not made aware of this earlier. I think that is bad business. I think it is the responsibility of every instructor to inform fromt he beginning what the costs will be for their students and give them all the information needed to make informed decisions on their training.

Sorry you are going through this. Any chance of having a good heart to heart with them and trying to make some arrangements?

 

[toejam]

Please don't flame me, but is it possible that the information was presented earlier in the last 3 years and you missed it somewhere? I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

No flaming necessary, in fact I appreciate the opportunity to answer this question. I had a similar incident with something smaller around 12 months into my training. I spoke with them regarding the lack of transparency on that particular issue and it appeared to be sorted out. I have been impartially monitoring the transparency situation since as I wanted to make sure these were not just my issues that I was projecting onto the club - the current issue, in a way, has confirmed my fears.

I have been able to train in the black belt classes and have found them not to be imparting any more knowledge than in my current classes so the rise in fees, from a consumers point of view, don't seem to be worth it. A product is only worth what someone is willing to pay for it.

Sorry you are going through this. Any chance of having a good heart to heart with them and trying to make some arrangements?

Yes...I plan to have a meeting with them to discuss and clarify the issues. Belt wise, I'm definitely sorry that I have invested over 3 years only to come to a point where I could potentially have to make a decision to change direction and start over somewhere else. But if I am to apply any of the wisdom I have gained, then I guess sometimes for the betterment of the journey, these decisions may have to be made.

 

[tshadowchaser]

Only system to ever required me to pay for my black belt test was TKD.
I have never had to pay in any other system.
I stoped attending one system because the GM demanded that all students under him attend a seminar once every two months , at least, and it cost 50$ if it was a fight seminar and 150 if it was a forms seminar, plus a 1/4 oz of gold.
I think demanding you go to all off the seminars you mentioned and then paying the test fee and haveing the monthly fees go up is BS and you are getting ripped off. BUT that is OMHO

 

[still learning]

Hello, Sounds like a school out to make alot of money from it's students. $800.00 to test for Black Belts? Crazy!

At a our Kempo school..testing for all colors each time is $25.00 dollars..except for Black Belts....free...for all Black belt testing and up..!

Testing is only done twice a year, In front of our Professor and his top Instructors. Once in Hawaii (hike to get there and Las Vegas Seminar)..note (one does not need to attend the Seminar..you can test only.)

Our Professor knows you work hard to get there (testing for BB)...Must be recommended by your Instructor and approved by the Professor before testing. Professor says it is an honor to be there for your Black Belt.

Test is usually 4-5 hours long..covers many things from physcial,forms,techniques,breaking,plus a written 25 questions..and the Professor reads each one....done before testing takes place. ..

You may want to look at other Kempo/Kenpo schools..nothing wrong with starting over..you will learn quicker and a little different style from yours..Aloha

 

[jfarnsworth]

It should be your instructors honor to test you for black. The testing fees should be minimal if anything at all. Making you spend lots of money is just kinda wrong. It should be a privelage to a raking in of your cash.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

My view on it is this.
I do suggest seminars but do not require them. One because of the expense because there are not many around here.

$800 for a shodan test is crazy someone's trying to milk you for a lot of $$. I say don't pay it. I charge $150 per shodan exam includes a shureido embroidered black belt and a 11x17 certificate framed.

Also I don't agree with requiring so many in such a short time. This is one red flag for me.

Somethings stinks in my opinion

 

[Grenadier]

Difficult situation indeed. One one hand, I can certainly sympathize with you, that 800 bucks for a shodan exam, and all of the required seminars, in addition to the almost 50% increase in tuition is raising a whole lot of red flags here. Is this dramatic increase in spending only for the next 7 months, or is it for the rest of your time there?

On the other hand, you need to ask yourself: Is the school that you are training at this good? Are you getting a great education that justifies having to pay that much? If you can honestly say "yes" to the questions in this paragraph, then all you can do is bite the bullet. If you cannot say "yes" to these questions, then it's probably time to go elsewhere.

I'd have to agree with the others, though, that 800 bucks for a shodan exam is rather exorbitant for the most part. Maybe if that shodan exam were administered by one of the top people in the system, then perhaps the fee can be somewhat justified, but in all of the schools where I have trained, none charged more than 200 bucks for the exam.

 

[toejam]

Is this dramatic increase in spending only for the next 7 months, or is it for the rest of your time there?

No...the $120/month will be permenant once you reach black belt.

Maybe if that shodan exam were administered by one of the top people in the system, then perhaps the fee can be somewhat justified, but in all of the schools where I have trained, none charged more than 200 bucks for the exam.

Apparently, we are having four 4th dan and above instructors from other schools grading us. Which is fine, but some of us can't afford the expense that involves. I joined to learn what they know...not to pay them to find people that I have to pay to learn what these other people know.

Toey.

 

[Adept]

So you're looking at spending up to $1,500 dollars?

Thats one hell of an expensive belt. If I were you, I'd go down to the mall and buy one out of the bargain bin for $10.

If I were ever faced with a situation like that, I'd just train my *** off as a brown belt for the rest of my time at that school. You'll only ever be as good as you'll be, regardless of the colour of your belt, so you might as well save the money.

 

[matt.m]

Geez, my org teaches tae kwon do and hapkido. We have 3 conventions yearly. Orlando, Colorado and Cape Girardeau, MO. Each of the 3 vary in fee. Ranging only 50-100. They last from Friday night to Sunday afternoon. By the way, I study under the current President of the Organization and he wishes that students only go to one a year. You can go to all three if you wish, it is entirely up to you, however think of only one as mandatory.

Belt test for us is 25 for yellow and 120 for black belt. Monthly dues are only $40.00 a month. I am up for my green belt test next wednesday the 12th and the belt test fee is 50.00.

It does amaze me, oh well when Great Grandmaster Park founded Moo Sul Kwan he said that it should be more like a club and not a business money maker.

 

[pstarr]

I never require students to attend seminars- that has nothing to do with examination material. The test fee you quote is, in my opinion, extremely high!

The fact that you have just now been made aware of these things throws up a bunch of red flags-

Just my two yuan

 

[Paul B]

That is way too much.:erg:

I am thankful that at my club the cost is kept minimal. $25 a month/$20 a test for Gup/$150 for Chodan..that's it. The cost goes up $100 for each Dan level..just for the Org. cert,mind you..the test is free.

 

[Robert Lee]

At that much on costs I would think about looking into another place to train. But for some Blackbelt test you have to pay to either go to the testing or to have people brought in. And the 800 dollar fee may be just for your group on costs. airfare motel ect. But dues going up seems odd But 120 a month some schools charge that at the first. So I guess at times it is fare Thats part of dealing with certion organizations. And then certion schools. Do you feel that the training provides that level of instruction or if you feel you are not getting it do look else where. The saying sometimes you get what you pay for is right and wrong. That depends on the instrucors knowledge and how well he can increase your abilty through the program. Lots of ifs to look at.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

I forgot to add to my post earlier about the increase in monthly fees. Are the amount of classes you are attending increasing? How about length? If not then the monthly rate should not go up.

 

[Cirdan]

Red flags all over the place. In all the clubs I have been we were made aware of any special prices regarding shodan grading (free, normal price or double kyu) before we ever took our first belt. It almost sounds like some kind of secrecy within the school. The costs you mention are very high indeed and can only be justified if your club has the very best to offer. I have to ask, does your club grade a lot of black belts?

 

[toejam]

Are the amount of classes you are attending increasing? How about length? If not then the monthly rate should not go up.

No, classes run 6 days per week and you go as many times as you like. Length and amount attended will not change.

I have to ask, does your club grade a lot of black belts?

I would say there would be around 20 Black belts ranging from 1st to 4th dan.

Toey.

 

[Grenadier]

No...the $120/month will be permenant once you reach black belt.

Hmm, that is pretty high, although that could very well be normal depending on where you are located.

It's still a very difficult question to answer. Can you elaborate further, to give us an idea of what the payers of the higher tuition / fees would get? Are the seminars that good?

Yudansha having to pay close to 50% more tuition isn't exactly common amongst the martial arts community, and while some would say it's unfair (I don't necessarily disagree with them), some of those schools do offer more for the money. For example, some schools would give you maybe a couple of free private lessons a month, others would hold semi-private classes (only for black belts), perhaps give a discount on merchandise purchased through the school, etc.

From what you have told us (no discount on the seminars, a pretty high testing fee), it sounds as if your school does not give you the extra benefits, and that they are simply charging their dedicated students more money, because they know they can get it. I honestly hope that I am incorrect here, and if so, my apologies in advance.


The teacher (and occasional manager at my old school) in me says that dedicated students should be more willing to help out the school, and if that means charging them a bit more, within reason, then so be it, as long as they are getting a real benefit from paying that extra.

The student in me says that a school should be somewhat accomodating to its students, and that the dedicated ones should be rewarded for their loyalty and dedication. If a dedicated student pays more, then he should be eligible get more, plain and simple.

What exactly is the best compromise? I really don't know, and if I had the answer for that, I'd be writing books on this, and not scientific grant proposals...

 

[toejam]

Are the seminars that good?

Mark Klines has done a couple. Richard Norton also, although I didn't attend his. I attended a few but found them not to be of great value...or worth what was being touted.

Toey.