Shorinjikempo/Jeet Kun Do/Aikido/Kuk Sool Won

[Xue Sheng]

You're right, I guess I was expecting a lot. You had mentioned before to look into Kosho Ryu Kempo; why is that?

The schools I have seen tend to get into the healing as well through shiatsu type points. It is also close to Aikido/Jiujutsu and there is a bit of a philosophical approach if you look some of the writtings of James Mitose and I believe Bruce Juchnik. But then I have only seen people that are students of Bruce Juchnik

 

[Tames D]

Thank you, I just emailed them to see what the tuition and schedule was and to sit in with a class. Let me ask you, I read somewhere that a great MA instructor should be able to trace back the lineage of instructors. Do you know who Paul Vunak was trained by, and so forth? (If not, it's totally fine. Plus, feel free to tell me if I'm wrong about that statement haha.)

Vunak trained under Dan Inosanto, who trained under Bruce Lee.

 

[Soul.Con.Fusion]

The instructor recommended another school for me; Integrated Martial Arts & Fitness | Livingston, NJ

He said he only runs instruction out of his basement and doesn't have a school. His current students are also in college so he doesn't really have classes at the moment, so that's why he recommended this other one. How does it look to you all?

Vunak trained under Dan Inosanto, who trained under Bruce Lee.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

The instructor recommended another school for me; Integrated Martial Arts & Fitness | Livingston, NJ

He said he only runs instruction out of his basement and doesn't have a school. His current students are also in college so he doesn't really have classes at the moment, so that's why he recommended this other one. How does it look to you all?

I see nothing in the website that would warn me away from that school, they use buzzwords but at this point very few martial art schools don't. Beyond that I can't really say just from the website. However, if it's being recommended by another instructor in the area, that's generally a good sign.
I do like that he states he is a brown belt in BJJ. It is very tough to get a black belt in that art, and the fact that he's not hiding he's not a black belt in an art suggests to me that he's not trying to bs people looking at the site.

 

[Flying Crane]

Vunak trained under Dan Inosanto, who trained under Bruce Lee.

Yes, but Bruce did not teach Dan the Philippine methods, I do not know who Dan's teachers were for that.

But Dan is legendary and very highly respected.

 

[Tames D]

Yes, but Bruce did not teach Dan the Philippine methods, I do not know who Dan's teachers were for that.

But Dan is legendary and very highly respected.

Correct. But per her question, I was just giving her a general idea of Vunaks JKD lineage since JKD seemed to be her interest. And, of course Dan, like Paul and most of us, have trained under more than one person in our lifetime.

 

[Tames D]

Yes, but Bruce did not teach Dan the Philippine methods, I do not know who Dan's teachers were for that.

But Dan is legendary and very highly respected.

It's hard to believe Dan will be 80 this month.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Correct. But per her question, I was just giving her a general idea of Vunaks JKD lineage since JKD seemed to be her interest. And, of course Dan, like Paul and most of us, have trained under more than one person in our lifetime.

Do you hapeen to know who the primary person Dan learned FMA from? I tried looking it up when it was brought up here, and could only find ed parker and bruce lee as his official lineage. It doesn't really matter, since I don't think anyone would doubt the validity of his abilities in that aspect. I just have a curious nature when it comes to people I consider legends in MA.

 

[Tames D]

Do you hapeen to know who the primary person Dan learned FMA from? I tried looking it up when it was brought up here, and could only find ed parker and bruce lee as his official lineage. It doesn't really matter, since I don't think anyone would doubt the validity of his abilities in that aspect. I just have a curious nature when it comes to people I consider legends in MA.

He learned from a few, but the only name I recall in my conversations is Angel Cabales.

 

[Chris Parker]

After doing a bit more research and video watching, I still have two visit a dojo. I'm actually more interested in "comparing" Jeet Kune Do and Shorinji Kempo... I've looked at Aikido and just felt it could offer more for what I was looking for, although the idea of using someone else's moves to cause them to fail is interesting.

Okay… first thing I'd caution against is trying to compare in the first place.

The thing to realise with martial arts is that they're not teaching you "moves" or "techniques"… they're teaching a tactical, unified, coherent method of addressing combative problems. It's like trying to compare pizza and hamburger… then compare them with ice cream and a roast beef. All are good… and people will have certain preferences… but there's nothing that makes a hamburger better than a roast… or pizza more appealing than ice-cream.

Jeet Kune Do and SK are at the top of my list now. Does anyone have thoughts on these two, side by side? What are the similarities and differences? Does JDK have any philosophical elements? Does it include meditation and usage of pressure points and healing?

In a way, JKD is nothing but philosophical elements… that's kinda it's raison d'être, really…

As far as similarities and differences, well, even that's not particularly easy to go through… JKD is sometimes taught (or described as) "JKD Concepts"… it's really, more than anything else, a particular approach to a personal exploration and study of martial arts. To that end, the particular make-up (on a technical level) of a particular JKD instructors methodology is as much a product of their varied training backgrounds as it is to do with JKD itself. Yes, there are certain aspects that can be expected to be found across the varied lineages and forms, but just because one JKD instructor has a heavily FMA influenced approach, there's little reason to expect the same in someone who doesn't share the same lineage and teachers.

The Shorinji Kempo place may concentrate on meditation and healing, but the chances of that are very low. JKD, from what I know, doesn't. If you're looking at that, you will probably need to try an internal martial art.

Now here's something that has stuck out at me through this thread… there have been mentions of looking to Kosho Ryu Kenpo, comments of "I'd recommend Shorinji Kenpo, but that's a personal bias", and so on… and, to be honest, I personally feel that people here are confusing Shorinji Kenpo with the various American "Kenpo" systems, such as Kosho Ryu (James MItose and so on… hmm…) and so on. And, honestly, no, it's nothing to do with that at all.

Shorinji Kenpo is a Japanese system founded by Doshin So… a person of some controversy, to say the least… who developed the system based in a range of established arts, primarily karate and judo methodology, and used it to put forth his particular brand of Buddhism… as a result, if the Shorinji Kenpo school does not have an emphasis on spirituality, religious aspects, meditation etc, then it's not Shorinji Kenpo. As a result, the odds are not "very low" at all.

To do a contrast, not to compare "this is good, this is not", but to indicate just how different these systems are, here are some clips:

Bruce Juchnik going through some principles of Kosho Ryu.

A Kosho Ryu Kenpo demonstration.

Now, in the interest of full disclosure (well, close to it, anyway), I am in no way enamoured of this system… I find it to be an example of some of my least favourite aspects of modern (particularly Western) arts… and I see such an array of flaws and issues that I'd personally steer clear completely… but that's likely largely due to my Japanese art background…

Larry Tatum, student of the founder of American Kempo, Ed Parker.

This is Shorinji Kenpo… quite different to the American versions in a number of ways, really….

One of the best documentary series on martial arts ever, and it's episode on Shorinji Kenpo. Watch this repeatedly to get some idea of what it's about…

As far as which you should study, eh, that's up to you… the one that you'll continue to attend, really. Visit, watch, make up your own mind, and enjoy!

 

[Flying Crane]

Correct. But per her question, I was just giving her a general idea of Vunaks JKD lineage since JKD seemed to be her interest. And, of course Dan, like Paul and most of us, have trained under more than one person in our lifetime.

Ok, somehow I was thinking it was the Filipino stuff she was interested.

 

[Xue Sheng]

In a way, JKD is nothing but philosophical elements… that's kinda it's raison d'être, really…

As far as similarities and differences, well, even that's not particularly easy to go through… JKD is sometimes taught (or described as) "JKD Concepts"… it's really, more than anything else, a particular approach to a personal exploration and study of martial arts. To that end, the particular make-up (on a technical level) of a particular JKD instructors methodology is as much a product of their varied training backgrounds as it is to do with JKD itself. Yes, there are certain aspects that can be expected to be found across the varied lineages and forms, but just because one JKD instructor has a heavily FMA influenced approach, there's little reason to expect the same in someone who doesn't share the same lineage and teachers.

yup it depends on which side of the JKD fence one is on. Dan Inosanto side of that fence is the product of ones training background. However on the Jerry Poteet, Ted Wong side of that fence there is only the "What Bruce Taught" approach.

I have great respect for Dan Inosanto, but I prefer the Poteet/Wang approach. But what I always run head long into with JKD is this quote from Bruce Lee

"Again let me remind you Jeet Kune Do is just a name used, a boat to get one across, and once across it is to be discarded and not to be carried on one's back."

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Now here's something that has stuck out at me through this thread… there have been mentions of looking to Kosho Ryu Kenpo, comments of "I'd recommend Shorinji Kenpo, but that's a personal bias", and so on… and, to be honest, I personally feel that people here are confusing Shorinji Kenpo with the various American "Kenpo" systems, such as Kosho Ryu (James MItose and so on… hmm…) and so on. And, honestly, no, it's nothing to do with that at all.

Shorinji Kenpo is a Japanese system founded by Doshin So… a person of some controversy, to say the least… who developed the system based in a range of established arts, primarily karate and judo methodology, and used it to put forth his particular brand of Buddhism… as a result, if the Shorinji Kenpo school does not have an emphasis on spirituality, religious aspects, meditation etc, then it's not Shorinji Kenpo. As a result, the odds are not "very low" at all.

You are correct, and this was primarily my fault, I believe. James Mitose originally called his art Shorinji Kenpo. I had not known that Shorinji Kempo was something different, and assumed that it was a development of his kenpo from the time that he called it Shorinji Kenpo.