Shaolin Kung Fu

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Bad idea... there are specifics that define animal techniques, theories & applications. Changing a punch to a claw hand shape does not make it a "Tiger". It makes it more likely somebody's about to break a finger or more.

You're right, replacing a closed fist punch with a tiger claw would probably be disaterous unless the palm heel is used. Could be worthwile in a situation where you don't want to hurt you'r opponent.

British12 has a good point, I'm confident that the techniques in the forms would make themselves quite useful. A snake strike into the throat is a very powerful technique, as can be crane snap kicks and leapoard strikes.
 

clfsean

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I don't recall advising changing any techniques, and especially didn't advocate using a claw hand (Tiger claw) in place of a closed fist strike. One could--and in my opinion, often should--use a palm heel strike instead of a closed fist, and might then follow with a tiger rake, or.... But this is a technique, and I was speaking of forms, for which I believe the bunkai might be endless.

Not really. Sure aesthetically speaking it would make things different & might even "liven things up" to an untrained eye or to a person who didn't know differently, but without the proper background in conditioning, theory, training & application you're doing the same thing with a funny hand position or even changing the function of an existing technique into something that may not work or be dangerous for the person playing the motion.

Still a bad idea.

If you're going to start off with 'Bad idea' in response to another poster, you might want to carefully read/think about what the proposal really is.

Nope. Before trying to scold someone about their ideas & opinions, you might want to check the background of the person & their training.

I've got twice the years as you do in training in MAs in general. I've trained in several different JMAs, KMAs & CMAs. I currently study Choy Li Fut which is an animal heavy system. We have specific training regimines for each animal to make sure we know how, when, where & why to use & apply it. Each motion is specific to the animal. No cross pollenation or changing of a technique to use a different hand shape. Each hand shape is unique & the training behind it insures it's used in the correct time & place.
 

kidswarrior

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Nope. Before trying to scold someone about their ideas & opinions, you might want to check the background of the person & their training.

I've got....

Oh, OK then. Since you've got all that, I bow to your superiority and acknowledge your right to 'scold' me, while humbly admitting my ideas are without merit and therefore I have no right to question your belittling of them. Won't make the same mistake again.
 

clfsean

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*oiy*

Ok... with that out of the way, the entire point I was making was missed based on your statement I initially quoted.
 
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british12

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This has thrown up an interesting debate................From my understanding its important not to drift too much away from the techniques you have been taught but in a real life scenario you could be caught in a rather compromising position so you wont be able to use the technique as well as in training...................its what feels good at the time no matter how ugly it might look compared to your training.
 

clfsean

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This has thrown up an interesting debate................From my understanding its important not to drift too much away from the techniques you have been taught but in a real life scenario you could be caught in a rather compromising position so you wont be able to use the technique as well as in training...................its what feels good at the time no matter how ugly it might look compared to your training.

Very true but you should have more than one option available. You shouldn't focus on using a specific technique but on dealing with & surviving the encounter. Your training should teach your body what to do. Your body should do what it's taught without needing input from the brain.

It's not a far drift, but one that can drift pretty quick.
 

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I don't mean to jump on anyone's case, but just thought I'd give my own input. In my opinion, Clfsean is correct. The different animals have very specific approaches to fighting, and it goes far beyond the type of hand strike they use. A Crane method is much more than simply using a cranebeak strike, and a Tiger method is much more than simply using tiger claws. In fact, the different animalized hand strikes can certainly be found within other animal methods. We use a tigerclaw in Tibetan White Crane system, for example.

I think what Clfsean is getting at is the approach used to create an effective animal method. The animal has characteristics. It has strengths and weaknesses, and a certain approach to fighting that is relatively unique, compared to the other animals. Training methods are used to develop the skills needed to take on this approach, and deliver the strikes appropriately. So for example, if you are using a Crane method, it really does not make sense to try to blend tiger with it. Of course you can switch from one to the other, but Crane method doesn't work if it is half tiger. If you are going to use tiger, then switch to tiger. Otherwise, keep doing crane.

I am a believer that in a real fight, chaos reigns and this often means your technique gets switched up and used differently from how you learn it and train it in the "ideal" phase. But if you are using a specific animal methodology, you stick to that methodology, regardless of how the individual techs get mixed up.

Here is another example: Tibetan White Crane is just about as different from Wing Chun as it is possible to get. I bring this up because Wing Chun was part of the initial post in this thread. Anyway, the power generation is entirely different, technique execution is entirely different, footwork and stancework are entirely different, approach to fighting is entirely different. I know this because I have studied both. If I used Wing Chun as a platform to fight from, but tried to mix in White Crane hand techs, it would fail miserably. It is the footwork and stancework and approach to fighting that White Crane uses, that makes its hand techniques effective. To try to graft those techs onto Wing Chun, takes them out of proper context, forces them into a context that doesn't make sense, and they would be worthless.

So getting back to the point: trying to force animal characteristics onto something that isn't animal, or onto something that is a different animal, just doesn't work well, and it doesn't suddenly make that non-animal thing into an animal thing. Simply using "animal" hand strikes doesn't make something an animal system. Substituting a tigerclaw for a punch doesn't make it tiger. Under the right circumstances, the substitution might be effective, but it remains just a substitution. It's not truly "tiger".

Hope this helps.
 

Xue Sheng

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I don't mean to jump on anyone's case, but just thought I'd give my own input. In my opinion, Clfsean is correct. The different animals have very specific approaches to fighting, and it goes far beyond the type of hand strike they use. A Crane method is much more than simply using a cranebeak strike, and a Tiger method is much more than simply using tiger claws. In fact, the different animalized hand strikes can certainly be found within other animal methods. We use a tigerclaw in Tibetan White Crane system, for example.

I think what Clfsean is getting at is the approach used to create an effective animal method. The animal has characteristics. It has strengths and weaknesses, and a certain approach to fighting that is relatively unique, compared to the other animals. Training methods are used to develop the skills needed to take on this approach, and deliver the strikes appropriately. So for example, if you are using a Crane method, it really does not make sense to try to blend tiger with it. Of course you can switch from one to the other, but Crane method doesn't work if it is half tiger. If you are going to use tiger, then switch to tiger. Otherwise, keep doing crane.

I am a believer that in a real fight, chaos reigns and this often means your technique gets switched up and used differently from how you learn it and train it in the "ideal" phase. But if you are using a specific animal methodology, you stick to that methodology, regardless of how the individual techs get mixed up.

Here is another example: Tibetan White Crane is just about as different from Wing Chun as it is possible to get. I bring this up because Wing Chun was part of the initial post in this thread. Anyway, the power generation is entirely different, technique execution is entirely different, footwork and stancework are entirely different, approach to fighting is entirely different. I know this because I have studied both. If I used Wing Chun as a platform to fight from, but tried to mix in White Crane hand techs, it would fail miserably. It is the footwork and stancework and approach to fighting that White Crane uses, that makes its hand techniques effective. To try to graft those techs onto Wing Chun, takes them out of proper context, forces them into a context that doesn't make sense, and they would be worthless.

So getting back to the point: trying to force animal characteristics onto something that isn't animal, or onto something that is a different animal, just doesn't work well, and it doesn't suddenly make that non-animal thing into an animal thing. Simply using "animal" hand strikes doesn't make something an animal system. Substituting a tigerclaw for a punch doesn't make it tiger. Under the right circumstances, the substitution might be effective, but it remains just a substitution. It's not truly "tiger".

Hope this helps.

What he said.

Doing white crane spreads its wings in Tai Chi is not the same as white crane kung fu. White crane in Tai chi is going to be very different than a crane system of fighting. In Tai chi it is more what the posture looks like.

Xingyi has 12 animal forms, all which have different applications, but they are still done as Xingyi not an animal form of kung fu. Which is very different in applications and appearance. Just because in Xingyi 5 elements your hand position is called tigers mouth does not make it tiger style or anything like it.
 
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british12

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Can I possibly see some of the animal forms online? I want to see them and have a basic understanding of it before I do anything............all the different animal forms sound interesting.
 

MSTCNC

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Can I possibly see some of the animal forms online? I want to see them and have a basic understanding of it before I do anything............all the different animal forms sound interesting.

Here's one that I found by searching shaolin five animals on YouTube...

[yt]Bc1zhpqbEV0[/yt]

Your Brother in the arts,

Andrew
 

Flying Crane

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Here's one that I found by searching shaolin five animals on YouTube...

[yt]Bc1zhpqbEV0[/yt]

Your Brother in the arts,

Andrew

This is an internal form of Hung Gar's Five Animals. I have heard that Choy Lay Fut's Five Animals is also internal.

As the narrator states, it is not a fighting set, but rather a set used to develop internal chi, based on theories of the Five Animals. So it isn't probably the best example of Animal Fighting styles.

I have mentioned this in other threads: In the Chinese arts, there are many different ways of doing things, even tho they may share the same name. Five Animals in one art may be completely different from Five Animals in another art. Tibetan White Crane is completely different from Fukien White Crane, or Wu Mei White Crane. They are entirely different interpretations of the White Crane.

Look on Youtube, and just search for things like White Crane Kung Fu, White Ape Kung Fu, Preying Mantis kung fu, things like that. You will see some examples.

Getting back to the thread topic, not everything that is Shaolin is animal based. There is just a lot of stuff that claims to have a connection and link to the Shaolin Temple. Not all of it is verifiable. But also, not all of it is animal inspired. Shaolin is an umbrella name that includes many different arts.
 

KamonGuy2

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Woah this has gone way off topic. To answer your question British12 - Kamon is about the best kung fu federation you will find in the country.

I have spent a long time looking at martial art schools up and down the UK. There are some exceptional schools around but not many have the vision to expand upon wing chun to include clinchwork, long distance fighting etc. Alan Orr is another good school but is also wing chun

There is a school called Nam Yang that exist around Surrey and they are very typical of what you can expect from Shaolin styles. Loud drum bangs, pathetic tricks of the eye that make people think you can deflect blades with your bare hands, kids thinking that they are kung fu masters etc

This is general advice for anyone starting in martial arts - go to the school ask the instructor what they do. Then ask him/her to demonstrate how they fight, and what they would do in a clinch scenario. Ask them how long it takes for them to grade
 

Changhfy

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To list some of my opinions.

Wing Chun is a Southern(Nan) Shaolin(Siu Lam) system.

As such its general characteristics are more straight forward.

For example some footwork used is bik ma, biu ma so forth. Representing the concepts (bik-press, biu-thrust) This type of footwork is also used by other Southern Shaolin systems such as Pak Mei, Hung Kuen I've seen Cho Gar Tong Long use it. (though its not labeled as such its similar but expresses a different concept)

Where as the Shaolin you are speaking of you would have to be more specific. Such as Northern (Bei) or Southern (Nan) Shaolin.
Northern generally starts out with wider movements to represent ways to generate Fa Jing based on the methods used. But given Northern Shaolin starts out with wider longer range movements and at later stages becomes more compact and economical.

Southern Shaolin also has similar progressions for instance based on combat in the 1600's Wing Chun as all other systems of the time started out with the training of weapons as this was a must in order to survive. (for instance if you come at me with swords and spears and I use bear hands I would place my money on you as opposed to the guy with only bear hands)

So given this was a must for survival you can see in the use of the Luk Dim Poon Kwan the wider and more stable stances were used to hold the weight of the pole or at that time the spear. Being that it was heavy and to have economy of motion you needed a wider base as a way to conserve energy on the battle field. So this is an example of how the situation dictated the methods used.

I've studied both Northern and Southern Shaolin systems and this is my opininions based on my experience.

hope this helps


take care
 

Rabu

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Wong Kiew Kit...How could you be against someone able to disperse clouds with his Chi and Levitate? *sheesh*

You can watch Wanham work out videos on YouTube or other video sites like Google. It looks pretty interesting for sure.

Very interesting.

If you had a good thing with your Wing Chun previously, try to get back into your old practice.

Plenty of people over on MAP who are in England. Lots of Lau Gar practitioners there apparently.

If you have the ability to shop about for something, look at whats in your area. Make a list. visit the schools and see which one doesnt set off your 'freak-o-meter'. Where you find good practice and feel comfortable is where you should try to train.

Best of luck,

Rob
 

Jin Gang

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Wonk Kiew Kit's Shaolin style is based on the five animals, and has a more southern feel to it. It is different from other southern shaolin styles that have the five animals, like Hung ga.
Shaolin, in general, is not primarily based on animal styles. The five animals set is just one of many styles and sets that was practiced in shaolin at one time. The five animals seems to be preserved more in southern styles than the northern systems. Modern northern shaolin sets include what some term as "longfist" styles; Chang quan, Hong (red) Quan, Pao Quan (cannon fist), Qixing quan (seven star fist), tongbei quan and others.

Many, many styles claim to have some connection to the temple in their past, so therefore can call themselves "shaolin". The temple has risen and fallen, literally and figuratively, so many times in history that it is almost impossible to say what is "really" shaolin martial arts. People came into the temple and taught styles they developed or learned in other areas, and the monks modified the styles and passed them on to others. The temple would be destroyed or closed, and monks would spread into the villages, teaching various styles to people. All the various styles that monks and lay people taught and developed in the temple could be called shaolin martial arts, there wasn't just one style. (as was mentioned earlier, Wing Chun is one of these styles) So keep that in mind when hearing someone talk of shaolin martial arts. It's very difficult to verify whether someone really learned something from a shaolin monk 300 years ago. Better to judge a style by its content, and not by its name or the prestige it claims due to some lineage.


Some of the forms that have been "reinserted" into the modern shaolin temple style from the northern styles that have some connection to the temple historically:

Luohan quan

Pao Chui

Xiao Hong quan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bT9IgCqFjgA&mode=related&search=

Da Hong quan

Qixing quan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LKjeyXHVV8w&mode=related&search=
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lG3RN1KGY0&NR

tongbei quan
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n4WIARR1sUE&mode=related&search=


to compare, here is Wong Kiew Kit's five animals form, or at least part of it, that would be taught at shaolin wahnam.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?d...=10&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=1
 
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