revisions to style, am I still teaching it?

[isshinryu guy]

So, I am a 2nd degree in Isshinryu Okinawan Karate. I am currently not associated with any groups of Federations, etc. I am looking to start teaching on a small level.

let's also say, that there are some changes I want to make to the way I am going to teach the style. I think Isshinryu packs way too much information and memorization in between white belt, and black. I think that it can be overwhelming, and I think that most students today do not have the time to dedicate to the amount of Katas, and techniques that normally are taught in Isshinryu under black belt.

I want to slow down the learning a bit. As you may not know, Isshinryu starts with Seisan, while not an overly complicated kata, it is lengthy. Many schools have added introductory katas such as Taikyoku, or other various beginner Katas. I would like to add the 2 Fukyugata katas from Matsubayashi. One being from Shorin Ryu, and one being from Goju (the core systems that Isshinryu is taken from).

Also, traditionally you learn all 8 katas in the system before black. That includes Kusanku, and Sunsu (the longest). I am thinking of moving these to 2nd, and 3rd dan respectively.

There are 3 Bo katas in this sytem, I am wanting to add an intro kata (Tenryu No Kon). There are also 2 Sai katas. I am thinking of removing them all together as they are expensive weapons for families to buy, and they are very dangerous with the sharp points. I do not think kids should learn them.

Here is my question: If I make all these changes, am I still teaching Isshinryu? Is this now a new system, or a modified Isshinryu system.

What do you think. I think people are making changes to systems all the time, when does it stop being the parent system?

 

[Stac3y]

You can get a pair of decent sais for $16 bucks online. Just FYI.

 

[wushuguy]

Maybe you can call it a modified version of the style, as it still incorporates the main aspects of the style with a few modifications. In my opinion, for it to be a new style, it should have some significant changes. like kajukenbo for example.

Some styles add a few things here and there but are still called by their foundation style. TKD for example. I know lots of TKD schools where they incorporate outside styles into their curriculum. but the main thing is still TKD. Like some incorporate escrima sticks into their curriculum or sai or even 3 section staff. But that's just bolted on, no matter how logical it looks to be.

If creating a new style is your goal, then it will take a lot of work to iron things out. understanding the philosophy and principle of the styles, knowing how it flows together, which aspects compliment, etc. Just knowing some techniques of other styles, one can't successfully bring about a new style.

 

[Andrew Green]

There are 3 Bo katas in this sytem, I am wanting to add an intro kata (Tenryu No Kon). There are also 2 Sai katas. I am thinking of removing them all together as they are expensive weapons for families to buy, and they are very dangerous with the sharp points. I do not think kids should learn them.

Sai are not expensive. All hobbies / sports have equipment that is needed. A pair of sai cost less then a pair of skates, a pair of wrestling shoes and countless other pieces of gear people won't even flinch at buying. Even a decent gi costs more then a pair of sai.

 

[Cayuga Karate]

Isshin Ryu Guy,

You would be doing what those before you have done.

Tatsuo learned from Kyan, Motobu and Miyagi. Motobu had several teachers. Kyan had a bunch. Kata wound up in Miyagi's goju ryu that Higashionna did not bring back from China.

All these teachers had multiple sources to the "styles" they created. That has been the nature of karate. You learn what you can, and pass on what you find useful.

If you decided to teach fewer kata, prior to black belt, (not swapping some out and some in), you would be teaching kata more like it was taught in the 1800s where often a student would practice a given kata for up to several years before moving on to another. (And students probably trained more hours then, than is common today. Moreover, their training likely had more kata practice compared to today's training.)

If you are only slowing down the rate at which Isshin Ryu kata are learned, and not abandoning any, then I would argue your system would be Isshin Ryu, even if you were to add other kata, both empty hand and weapon.

Just my two cents worth.

-Mike Eschenbrenner
Cayuga Karate
Ithaca, NY 14850

 

[repz]

Yeah, I second the above poster. Only tradition that has been consistant in martial arts is that of change (seems ironic).

You might get traditional Isshin Ryu karatekas arguing that your school isnt traditional Isshin Ryu, or take it as far as to say its not Isshin Ryu anymore. But there is no law to copy a style exactly, a style is an expression of the individual.

I intend to mix styles and I also wonder what the perception of others would be to my style.

 

[isshinryu guy]

Yeah, I second the above poster. Only tradition that has been consistant in martial arts is that of change (seems ironic).

You might get traditional Isshin Ryu karatekas arguing that your school isnt traditional Isshin Ryu, or take it as far as to say its not Isshin Ryu anymore. But there is no law to copy a style exactly, a style is an expression of the individual.

I intend to mix styles and I also wonder what the perception of others would be to my style.

I think there are very few traditionally pure schools left, at least around here. There is a school across the street from my work that teaches Kung-fu. They mix Long Fist, Mantis, with Tai-Chi, and Escrima? Also, half the Taekwondo schools around here have added Hapkido self defense, and Okinawan Kobudo for weapons. And dear lord, how many people have added Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu to their programs because of the MMA. I think everone is looking for a rounded system.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

My kobudo instructor is also a 6th Dan in Isshin Ryu and teaches Isshin ryu very traditionally. She has added a version of Taikiyoku before Seisan to help the learning process along with some other slight differences. Maybe you should talk to her to see if she can help make some suggestions. Contact me if you are interested.

 

[repz]

I think there are very few traditionally pure schools left, at least around here. There is a school across the street from my work that teaches Kung-fu. They mix Long Fist, Mantis, with Tai-Chi, and Escrima? Also, half the Taekwondo schools around here have added Hapkido self defense, and Okinawan Kobudo for weapons. And dear lord, how many people have added Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu to their programs because of the MMA. I think everone is looking for a rounded system.

True, but I meant throughout history. Like I take two styles, one considered tma, but it came from shurei-te and naha-te, which is shotokan.

You take isshin ryu, which is a mix of several styles as well.

Back then there wasnt even a style, some guy could have showed some dude some kata and added it to his system.

It seems like traditional is anything that remains faithful to a style that is within 60 years of birth and that ONLY came from asia.

But I personally dont think anything is traditional, everything came from something, and people have always changed it. I dont really see a reason to stay with one style, if they can do, so can we.

Thats just my oppinion.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Just fyi Shotokan is a mix of Shuri Te and Tomari Te not Naha Te. Shotokan does not use any kata from the Naha lineage.

 

[Omar B]

Revise as much as you want man, whatever works for you, but the traditionalists will not call it Isshin Ryu. But really, is that such a bad thing? Many times organizations are less about quality control and more about simply control. They become guardians of the flame and you have to not only pay tribute to them but your students have to measure up to what they consider correct. Not that that's a bad thing really.

Personally I do a Japanese style but as I've not been formally apart of an organization since my teens and work out privatly with my Hanshi and his son I have more leeway. Sure what I do is Seido, but I also do a lot of Korean style kicking and since we are working privatly my Hanshi works in a lot of Judo since he's got two good subjects to toss around. So he holds high rank in Seido but my last organization certificate was my junior black belt. At this point I'm a second degree bb in a weirdo mutt system.

Not something I would ever teach openly in a school though. We do what we do, but I'm not here to change anything or throw another style name into the already crowded pool. I do relive in keeping styles pure, but I also believe in adapting for yourself ... not in changing and imposing my own value judgments as to what I think is good.

 

[wushuguy]

I agree with omar. actually most students don't know or care about larger organizations. like in TKD, many don't know if they're doing WTF or ITF. and they don't care, as long as it was good for them.

 

[bigmoe]

Hears the problem today Its not the problem that isshinryu has to much imformation people dont want to take time to practice.As Mr Mitchum has said to me when you add and subtract from the style it not isshinryu call it something else. Also on the other hand taikyoku was taught as an in house dojo kata by Mr Harrill not as a isshinryu kata along with his two other kata.Are those kata good to learn yes but there not isshinryu kata i know that im traditionalists and have been in isshinryu for 30 yrs but that is what i think what ever you do i wish you luck

 

[jks9199]

Hears the problem today Its not the problem that isshinryu has to much imformation people dont want to take time to practice.As Mr Mitchum has said to me when you add and subtract from the style it not isshinryu call it something else. Also on the other hand taikyoku was taught as an in house dojo kata by Mr Harrill not as a isshinryu kata along with his two other kata.Are those kata good to learn yes but there not isshinryu kata i know that im traditionalists and have been in isshinryu for 30 yrs but that is what i think what ever you do i wish you luck

It sounds like you haven't really added or subtracted anything, merely altered the sequence and timing, right? You're keeping the same principles and underlying strategies, and if someone saw one of your students, they'd say "That's Isshin-ryu."

The catch is going to be that, because you've delayed some of the material, one of your students could go somewhere and not know material they are expected to know at their level. You'll at least want to prepare your students for that sort of thing.

 

[Brandon Fisher]

Bigmoe,
Thank you!!

 

[sjansen]

If your teaching your student the basics of Isshinryu then you are teaching the isshinryu.

Shimabuku took several styles and combined them to form what he thought was the perfect style. Many add to it and have taken from it.

To teach the basics of Isshinryu as you understand it is probally closer to Shimakuku's vision than what is taught today. His main practitioners learned Issinryu in lesq than a year and had little discernment of what was meant in the style than they realize.

This has happened with many styles. What the founder wanted and what was necessary to practice the style have been imbellished to keep students.

Do what you know is necessary for your students and you will do what is right.

 

[setboy]

I want to slow down the learning a bit. As you may not know, Isshinryu starts with Seisan, while not an overly complicated kata, it is lengthy. Many schools have added introductory katas such as Taikyoku, or other various beginner Katas. I would like to add the 2 Fukyugata katas from Matsubayashi. One being from Shorin Ryu, and one being from Goju (the core systems that Isshinryu is taken from).

I see no real problem with this and i came up in a school that did the same thing. All i can say is make real sure that your students know it is not an isshinryu kata.

Also, traditionally you learn all 8 katas in the system before black. That includes Kusanku, and Sunsu (the longest). I am thinking of moving these to 2nd, and 3rd dan respectively.

In my mind i think 2nd and 3rd are pushing them too far up the ranks. I think 1st and 2nd would be better myself. I know i have seen LOTS of different ways people have ordered katas. Is there a right and wrong way? I don't know.
I thinl even master Angi Uezu teaches/ed sunsu at shodan. That's different from most people i have seen.
The other thing i will say is if you are going to be taking your students places to meet other isshinryu people they may feel left behind when they see a brown belt is doing kusanku and they are a shodan that hasn't learned it yet.

There are 3 Bo katas in this sytem, I am wanting to add an intro kata (Tenryu No Kon). There are also 2 Sai katas. I am thinking of removing them all together as they are expensive weapons for families to buy, and they are very dangerous with the sharp points. I do not think kids should learn them.

I would say don't remove the katas. moving them around is one thing, but removing them all together sounds like a bad idea. I will also have to disagree with weapons being too expensive. kids are not the best people to be using sai, but teens have no problem.

Here is my question: If I make all these changes, am I still teaching Isshinryu? Is this now a new system, or a modified Isshinryu system.

What do you think. I think people are making changes to systems all the time, when does it stop being the parent system?

Hard call since every one has a different idea of what "real isshinryu" is.
What ever you do i say to teach it as best as you can.

 

[bigmoe]

All that i am saying that when he used kata from the other styles he changed the name to isshinryu .It would be like when i was in the army and i took two other styles and when i got out opened a school and used there kata and called my school bigmoe isshinryu would i really be teaching isshinryu or should i call it another name

 

[searcher]

I am having one problem with a particular statement you made. You states that you are a Ni-dan in I-ryu, but you were thinking of moving some Bo kata to Ni-dan or San-dan. How you planning on doing that if you are only a Ni-dan yourself? Are you planning on promoting yourself? Or maybe you are thinking about making your own style to move up the ladder faster? My inquiring mind wants to know.


Though I-ryu is not my primary style, I do teach it in addition to my primary as a part of my school. I have no problems telling my students that some pieces are from I-ryu and some are from C-ryu. I do try to keep the systems seperated as much as possible, but I will never stop overlap if it makes my students better karate-ka. I even take some of the things from TKD(I trained in this style for quite a while), EPAK(I am currently training in this style) and even Hawaiian Kenpo(a style I used to train in) and put them in for my students. By adding these things, I have found that my students are getting better by the day and they are researching more material on their own.

Now, do I feel like what I am teaching is a new style? I am not really sure. I feel it is karate and that is what I say I am teaching. I don't care if someone comes by and tells me that what I am teaching is not correct or proper. My students are getting better and that is what I am wanting to have happen.

 

[David43515]

Am I the only one who thinks it`s odd that a guy who is only a second dan is trying to figure out what he`s going to teach his students as requirememnts for thier third dan?