"Real" Isshinryu?

[rlp271]

I think it is very sad that egos (as well as other things) have led to a lot of self promoting in the early days of Isshinryu and even today. I must be careful not to offend every lineage. but with all that being said I love Isshinryu it is great. The Passion of Martial Arts for me. That is why I have tried to Aline with the UIKA. They are the real deal to me, and Mitchum is the senior American, that is my belief and I am proud of my team now.

I stole this quote from "Questions about Karate Belts." This isn't to pick on this person, but you say that you believe the UIKA is the "real deal." What do you mean by that? I don't want to start a lineage war, I just want to see what is meant by the UIKA being the "real deal." Angi Uezu was the head of the OIKKA, and he had much more prolonged contact with Tatsuo Shimabuku than any of the US Marines. I won't get into the Shimabuku brothers, because the argument over transmission of the style to Kichiro is old as dirt.

I don't think there is a "real" Isshinryu. There were too many people taught too many different things at too many different times. I also don't think anyone preserved Tatsuo Shimabuku's teachings. The best we can hope for at this time is to trace lineages back to Marines if you're in the US, and try to preserve what they taught.

The American Budo Kai, which is a small collection of Isshinryu Dojo from Upstate New York down to New Jersey, four schools in total I believe, is dedicated to preserving their Isshinryu the way Dale Jenkins taught it. Jenkins learned from Don Nagle. This, to me, is the right idea.

The UIKA should work to preserve Isshinryu the way Mitchum teaches it.

The OIKKA should work to preserve Isshinryu the way Angi Uezu understands it. To this end, Tsuyoshi Uechi, who is an amazing Isshinryu practitioner, is the head of the OIKKA currently, and is the head of Isshinryu Karate in Okinawa. He trained directly under Angi Uezu for over 25 years. Couldn't he be considered the "real" deal?

I want to get a few other opinions here. Is there a "real" Isshinryu Karate? If there is, who does the lineage go through after Tatsuo Shimabuku?

I don't want to start a fight here, and from what I've seen, it looks like cooler heads generally prevail, and we can have a civil discussion about this.

 

[David43515]

Looking forward to more replies on this. I`m always up to learn more.

 

[Victor Smith]

Real is every instructor who took their training with Shimabuku Tatsuo nd worked on it for the rest of thier lives. What they have in common is the true shared bond between Isshinryu, not the differences.

Here's the 'real' question for you.

Is true Isshinryu picking the right version of what Shimabuku taught and never changin it?

or

Is true Isshinryu looking at Shimabuku Tatsuo's life, see how he absorbed teachings from his many instructor, lived them and changed them when he felt it was necessary and keep working to do the best you can do.

Most of the Isshinryu instructors I've known also have had additional training one time or another.

If they work to keep their own studies 'alive' and things changes as they're understanding changes, aren't they being true to the way Shimabuku Tatsuo lived his life?

Which way is more real, keep it 'pure' or workign to make your understanding better (and change be damned)?

pondering

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Victor,

My sensei does both (we're affiliated with UIKA). We try to stay true to Master Shimabuku's Isshin-Ryu as it has come to us, and we are quite often referred to the videos of his slow-motion demos when in doubt. We do our kata the way our sensei has been taught it from Masters Harrill and Mitchum.

However, we also do self-defense drills and exercises taken from other styles, even from other martial arts. Spinning back kicks and inside hook kicks that just aren't in Isshin-Ryu, for example (at least I don't think they are). We use some Aikido moves that sensei likes from time to time, as well as some Judo style throws and trips.

Recently, sensei returned from a seminar in Florida where he picked up Eku (oar) kata. Now he's showing it to us.

He tells us when he is teaching something that is 'not Isshin-Ryu' but he considers it valuable nonetheless. And he shows us bunkai inside the kata that are not the 'official' bunkai of the UIKA for that kata. But he tells us that too.

However, we do kata the way the UIKA says to do it. We learn lots of other things, but we do kata the way it's taught us as being 'UIKA' Isshin-Ryu.

This to me seems a very good way of approaching it. No such thing as a bad technique if it works, regardless of source. But good for an Isshin-Ryu student to know if something is or is not part of the actual lexicon of Isshin-Ryu.

 

[Victor Smith]

Hi Bill,

You may find it interesting Mitchum Sensei was a Guest Instructor when I took my sho-dan examination. I joined the UIKA for several years but where I lived in PA had no contact with anyone else and eventually discontinued the membership..

I met Harrill Sensei through serindipity in 1994 I think and maybe attended his clinics (and hosted several) for 50 or 60 hours. After his death I pulled my notes togehter and documented he shared 800 applications for Isshinryu's 8 kata. I sent those notes to John Kerker (who became the head instructor in Harrill Sensei's dojo after his death) and he replied (that looks about right and there are another 500 or so not there).

My instructor trained with Sherman in Agena back when.

My own kata are pretty much what I studied in Lewis Sensei's dojo and then with Murray Sensei, but there were many variations on the kata, and apparently coming from Shimabuku Sensei, even indirectly. But that's a whole different story for another day.

I haven't been 'taught Isshinryu' since April of 1979. I do my best not to change my kata, but change happens for several reasons, and in many cases I already learned several varations on those kata too. Change then often changing from one 'original' version to another.

I agree with you about sourcing other material you learn and then teach. I was taught to do that and always have myself, having quite a bit of it too.

still stepping on the floor remains the truest Isshinryu to me.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

So one might say that if Shimabuku Sensei's photo is on the shomen, it's a real Isshin-Ryu dojo.

 

[Victor Smith]

Hmmm, I only have Lewis sensei's photo there and I would suggest my Isshinryu is 'real'.......

 

[dancingalone]

Is the physical technique in the various Isshinryu groups so divergent then?

I can compare the main groups in Okinawan Goju-ryu (Jundokan, Meibukan, and Shoreikan) and not see any real alterations in meaning or performance. Perhaps a few extra sets or a signature detail in kata separates them, but nothing essential.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Hmmm, I only have Lewis sensei's photo there and I would suggest my Isshinryu is 'real'.......

My bad. I assumed (my foolish mistake) that every Isshin-Ryu dojo had a photo of Shimabuku Sensei in it. All *two* Isshin-Ryu dojos that I have been in do, after all!

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Is the physical technique in the various Isshinryu groups so divergent then?

I can compare the main groups in Okinawan Goju-ryu (Jundokan, Meibukan, and Shoreikan) and not see any real alterations in meaning or performance. Perhaps a few extra sets or a signature detail in kata separates them, but nothing essential.

I think the differences are fairly minor, from what I've seen. I do note that the kata are often taught in different order (we do Sanchin as our first kata), and with regard to Sanchin, some do it 'Goju-Ryu' style and some do it 'Isshin-Ryu' style. We do both, but most often the Goju way. We're told it is out of respect for Goju-Ryu from whence we got that particular kata.

 

[Victor Smith]

Hi Bill,

A clear assumption and probably many Isshinryu dojo do.

I didn't train with Shimabuku Sensei so I focus on my insructors. Come to think of it Mr. Lewis had a great deal hanging in his dojo (awards, placks, weapons) but I can't reacall Shimabuku Sensei's picture was there after all these years. I may have been I just can't recall it. Probably I'm just old.

My personal inspiration is Mr. Lewis, Mr. Murray, Mr. Ribgy, Mr. Baily, Mr. Lockwood and many other of my seniors. Harrill Sensei is also a personal inspiration but from our friendship because I was never his student, just someone he shared with.

 

[scottie]

I am still new to this thing so bare with me.

I stole this quote from "Questions about Karate Belts." This isn't to pick on this person, but you say that you believe the UIKA is the "real deal." What do you mean by that? I don't want to start a lineage war, I just want to see what is meant by the UIKA being the "real deal."

I believe Mitchum to be the Senor American Student that was all I meant. I have friends from the Nagle, Uezu, and multiple Long Lineages. as a matter of fact I just spoke to a 10th Dan Wed. Night, from his lineage that I think would agree that Mitchum is the Senor In the US. That takes nothing from any US Marine or any other American student of Shimabuku Tatsuo.

Angi Uezu was the head of the OIKKA, and he had much more prolonged contact with Tatsuo Shimabuku than any of the US Marines. I won't get into the Shimabuku brothers, because the argument over transmission of the style to Kichiro is old as dirt.

not gonna touch that. agreed

I don't think there is a "real" Isshinryu. There were too many people taught too many different things at too many different times. I also don't think anyone preserved Tatsuo Shimabuku's teachings. The best we can hope for at this time is to trace lineages back to Marines if you're in the US, and try to preserve what they taught.

The American Budo Kai, which is a small collection of Isshinryu Dojo from Upstate New York down to New Jersey, four schools in total I believe, is dedicated to preserving their Isshinryu the way Dale Jenkins taught it. Jenkins learned from Don Nagle. This, to me, is the right idea.

The UIKA should work to preserve Isshinryu the way Mitchum teaches it.

Master Denny Shaffer wrote a great article about the Long lineage and it's splinters. I want to be careful not to misquote him. but it talks about why he did what he did in his 10 Dan promotions. check it out at shaffersdragons.com
I think what you said is happening all over the world of Isshinryu. I was in a School were a 10th Dan told a high ranking student I don't care what anyone says or what was on the video. ****** told me to do it this way and this is how the ***ka is going to do it. I would venture to say that in 20 years, if not already we are going to be a picture of the Shorinryu system. with all of the Different branches. Katas being done the way Nagle said to do them. and the way Armstrong said to do them..... that's cool. all of the Politics of Isshinryu still does not change the effectiveness of the art.

The OIKKA should work to preserve Isshinryu the way Angi Uezu understands it. To this end, Tsuyoshi Uechi, who is an amazing Isshinryu practitioner, is the head of the OIKKA currently, and is the head of Isshinryu Karate in Okinawa. He trained directly under Angi Uezu for over 25 years. Couldn't he be considered the "real" deal?

He left the OIKKA and changed the Kata from the way Uezu taught him "to make them more like Shimibuku's First teachings."
Not trying to be a butt hole but, Master Christopher Chase is now the head of the OIKKA. I spoke with him about two months ago. Uechi has started the ISSHIN-RYU OKINAWA TRADITIONAL KARATE-DO ASSOCIATION in an attempt to take the Kata back to what MasterShimabuku intended them to be and (Quote from the website) "it is my goal to have Isshin-Ryu recognized by the Okinawan Prefecture Karate Rengokai (association) as being a traditional Ryu (style) and the IOTKA recognized as the official Kaiha (association). At present, there are three recognized styles, Shorin-Ryu, Goju Ryu and Uechi-Ryu." you may read more about this on their website /www.iotka.com/.

I want to get a few other opinions here. Is there a "real" Isshinryu Karate? If there is, who does the lineage go through after Tatsuo Shimabuku?

I don't want to start a fight here, and from what I've seen, it looks like cooler heads generally prevail, and we can have a civil discussion about this.

I will Take my licks when I am wrong, and I may should not have said "real deal" Isshinryu is Isshinryu and It does not matter if you do double up blocks or double side blocks in Seisan as long as you do it the was your 10th Dan tells you to. unless you want to be true to what was meant to be done by Master Shimabuku. I personally think the UIKA does that. That makes them and anybody else who attempts to stay true to the Kata The Real Deal. (IN MY OPINION) The UIKA, IIKA, USIKA, TKS, OKA, AOKA, and..... is certainly not the only group that does it right. I did not at any point mean to be disrespectful.

 

[rlp271]

@Scottie: You were never disrespectful, and I appreciate your post. It's well-written, and it lets me know where you're coming from. That's what I was looking for, the context behind the statement. Thanks for the heads up on the association changes as well. You weren't being a butthole as you put it. I know they move around a lot, and I haven't been able to keep up with all of them lately, like the last few years. It's my fault for not being better informed. A job, an engagement, and wedding planning has taken up enough time. Life has a tendency to do that to you haha.

Mr. Smith, Mr. Mattocks, I agree with the way things are done at your dojos. I like the fact that Isshinryu can grow, and it doesn't have to be preserved in a glass jar. I think that was the original intention. I said in another post that Shimabuku was a tinkerer. He loved to mess around with things, which is where all the variation comes from. We should also mess around with things as we gain experience.

My post was to get a few responses about what state Isshinryu is in today, because there's a lot going on with it. With all the associations, politically motivated moves, etc. it's hard to keep track of who is where. I think concentrating on who your teachers are and what they bring to your Karate is the most important thing. I also believe that the "real" Isshinryu is whatever you have learned from a qualified instructor regardless of association. It doesn't matter who your lineage goes back to, because lineages get lost or confused in time, but the martial art sticks around. None of us know who really started putting together things like kata, or who decided to pick up sai for the first time, but those things are still around, and we still train with them, so who did it first no longer matters.

 

[dancingalone]

Politics aside, I can say after viewing some video of AJ Advincula performing Seisan today, that he does many of the same things that are done in Goju-ryu. Advincula Sensei obviously needs no compliments from me, but I think his karate is strong and it is obviously Okinawan, if that makes a difference to anyone.

 

[punisher73]

Politics aside, I can say after viewing some video of AJ Advincula performing Seisan today, that he does many of the same things that are done in Goju-ryu. Advincula Sensei obviously needs no compliments from me, but I think his karate is strong and it is obviously Okinawan, if that makes a difference to anyone.

I have seen Advincula's video series on the kata. On the series he shows both the Shorin-Ryu version and the Goju-Ryu version of each kata where applicable so you can see the changes/inovations that Shimabuku had compared to the base styles.

 

[punisher73]

I think the differences are fairly minor, from what I've seen. I do note that the kata are often taught in different order (we do Sanchin as our first kata), and with regard to Sanchin, some do it 'Goju-Ryu' style and some do it 'Isshin-Ryu' style. We do both, but most often the Goju way. We're told it is out of respect for Goju-Ryu from whence we got that particular kata.

From other Isshinryu stylists, I think that there is a wide divergence in some aspects. For example, almost everyone says that Isshinryu is characterized by the vertical fist, yet there are some lineages and schools that teach and use the horizontal twisting punch as well. Another example is that Isshinryu always uses the muscle portion of the arm to block with, but there are some schools that use a "bone block" instead. Some schools insist that all Isshinryu punches are immediately snapped back after the strike, yet others say that it is only done in Seisan kata and the punch is a vertical thrust and is not retracted immediately on contact.

So I guess it depends on how we define the "minor" differences and how it effects the overall strategy and approach. It really gets into "What makes a style unique?" And further, what really does set Isshinryu apart? Many people on Okinawa consider Isshinryu not a seperate style like we do over here in the US, but a substyle of Shorin-Ryu.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

From other Isshinryu stylists, I think that there is a wide divergence in some aspects. For example, almost everyone says that Isshinryu is characterized by the vertical fist, yet there are some lineages and schools that teach and use the horizontal twisting punch as well. Another example is that Isshinryu always uses the muscle portion of the arm to block with, but there are some schools that use a "bone block" instead. Some schools insist that all Isshinryu punches are immediately snapped back after the strike, yet others say that it is only done in Seisan kata and the punch is a vertical thrust and is not retracted immediately on contact.

So I guess it depends on how we define the "minor" differences and how it effects the overall strategy and approach. It really gets into "What makes a style unique?" And further, what really does set Isshinryu apart? Many people on Okinawa consider Isshinryu not a seperate style like we do over here in the US, but a substyle of Shorin-Ryu.

As a beginner, I can only talk about what little I know of Isshin-Ryu. I know that in my dojo, and one other I trained briefly at, we use the vertical fist exclusively for all kata except one version of Sanchin, which we do with a twisting punch in the Goju-Ryu manner. All our punches are snapping punches in the sense that the fist is not left hanging out there.

As to Isshin-Ryu being a subset of Shorin-Ryu, I could not say. I know that Isshin-Ryu was based on both Shorin-Ryu and Goju-Ryu, and we take our kata from both, having only one 'unique' kata, Sunsu. It's certainly an amalgamation of two recognized styles.

When I say that the vertical fist is employed in our kata, I mean that in some self-defense drills we do, we may angle the fist differently (although we do not use the torquing punch even then). This is to 'fit' the fist into the body part which we're striking. A horizontal fist fits very nicely into certain parts of the ribcage, etc. Sensei says "why do we position the fist this way?" and the answer is always "because it fits!" So we may change the orientation of the fist to fit the application, but the kata (except one version of Sanchin) are all vertical fist (which is not exactly vertical, but close).

 

[dancingalone]

And further, what really does set Isshinryu apart? Many people on Okinawa consider Isshinryu not a seperate style like we do over here in the US, but a substyle of Shorin-Ryu.

For me, it would have to be the distinctive method of blocking and punching along with the kata modifications Shimabuku made. The students Shimabuku taught before he made his changes and left him during his karate transition could probably be labeled accurately as 'shorin-ryu' people as they did not accept his evolution in technique. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but these earlier students would not have received much if any of the knowledge Shimabuku learned from Miyagi Chojun.

 

[dancingalone]

I have seen Advincula's video series on the kata. On the series he shows both the Shorin-Ryu version and the Goju-Ryu version of each kata where applicable so you can see the changes/inovations that Shimabuku had compared to the base styles.

I'd be interested in seeing these. The video I saw was just Advincula performing some kata by himself at learning speed. It looked like it had been filmed relatively recently by the clarity of the video.

 

[rlp271]

For me, it would have to be the distinctive method of blocking and punching along with the kata modifications Shimabuku made. The students Shimabuku taught before he made his changes and left him during his karate transition could probably be labeled accurately as 'shorin-ryu' people as they did not accept his evolution in technique. Someone correct me if I am wrong, but these earlier students would not have received much if any of the knowledge Shimabuku learned from Miyagi Chojun.

According to the timelines I know of, by the time Shimabuku started teaching the Marines, he had already learned from Kyan, Miyagi, and Motubu. He was still studying kobudo with Taira Shinken while he was experimenting with Isshin-ryu and teaching Marines. This is a probable reason for why some Isshin-ryu schools have incomplete kobudo syllabi. Most are missing Hama Higa no Tuifa and Kyan no Sai, if they are missing anything. There is also variation in Kusanku sai, as some dojo still retain the kicks others do not.

As I said, he was a lifelong tinkerer, so anyone who retains bone blocks and traditional twisting punches, I suppose could be labelled as being closer to Shorin-ryu, because most of their kata come from there. The combination of kata can come into play as well however. The principles behind the Goju-ryu kata and the Shorin-ryu kata are different, so you get different things from them. Sunsu is also unique to Isshin-ryu. Another example of mixing styles is Kyokushin. It is a combination of Shotokan and Goju-ryu kata, with only Garyu as its unique kata, and very few people would argue that Kyokushin is a subset of either Shotokan or Goju-ryu. At least as far as I know. I'm sure their kumite rules help this.

Edit: If you're talking about his Okinawan students, then you'd likely have to look at where they went after they split from Shimabuku. I'm sure some went to Goju-ryu, others Shorin-ryu, some may have started learning kobudo, and some may have quit.