Respect is earned vs. automatically given

[ralphmcpherson]

Certainly social situations are different from formal situations. Some would say that you should not fraternize with your superiors outside of the workplace to maintain the necessary respect.

Using the example of the military again, fraternization is "prohibited". Is it enforced? Not normally until it obviously starts to interfere with work. By the book, officers should hang with officers, NCOs with NCOs and lower enlisted ranks with their peers. As an NCO, I dated lower enlisted ranks. Hell, my wife of now 19 years was an E-2 and I an E-5 when we first started dating. Certainly a forbidden relationship. At work she referred to me as Sgt Braun and I referred to her as Airman Braun so nobody had a problem with it. Had Airman Braun though been seen as getting some sort of special treatment because she was sleeping with Sgt. Braun, than the Air Force certainly would have determined that there was a problem.

Going for dinner or drinks with your dojang superiors, well as long as you guys have fun outside but when you are inside the dojang the rank rules and people don't think that Jimmy red belt is getting special treatment from instructor Bill because they are drinking buddies, then good for you for being able to have that sort of relationship.

I totally agree with that, and socialising outside the dojang could lead to problems I imagine. Whenever we go out for dinner or have drinks (generally after gradings) it is strictly black belts only. The rule was made years before I was on the scene and I imagine it was made for much the same reasons you mentioned in your post.

 

[Earl Weiss]

I tried to lightly do it to one of my students, but I felt like I didn't know what I was doing so I stopped. To this day I don't know what he did. I know that when he did it to my elbow, it made this sick crackling sound, like when Bruce Lee broke Chuck Norris' arm in Return of the Dragon. In fact, when he was doing that, I remember thinking this must be how Chuck Norris felt in the movie.

Well GM Uesugi, while it was certainly a privilege to have it done to you, do you think you will ever learn / be taught how to do it? (An old Parable comes to mind.)

 

[andyjeffries]

Well GM Uesugi, while it was certainly a privilege to have it done to you, do you think you will ever learn / be taught how to do it? (An old Parable comes to mind.)

I was wondering the same thing. In particular with the reference to the Mr Miyagi technique not by mythical but real.

I think this is an area I'd like to know more about, but don't have access to the teachings through my taekwondo dojang.

Hmmm....

 

[Kacey]

The other grey area is when "belts are off".

A belt is a piece of fabric. Do people lose their knowledge and experience when they take off a belt? Are you respecting the belt, or the person? When my instructor takes off his belt, it doesn't change his knowledge or experience, or make him a different person - and it is the person I respect.

As to the belt itself (or the uniform, or position, or whatever external symbols represent rank in anything), in a setting where the symbol has direct relevance (the dojang, or the military base, or the CEO's office, etc.) then I will demonstrate respect for the symbol, and the person who has earned the rank demonstrated by the symbol, as appropriate to the setting. But if I respect the person, then I will demonstrate that respect whether the symbol is present or not.

 

[jthomas1600]

The other grey area is when "belts are off". We are taught that in class with belts on we respect our seniors, instructors etc It is almost as if inside the dojang they are put up on a pedestal. Once outside the dojang and "belts are off" we are all equal. We go out for korean food after gradings with the rest of our class and I dont think an on looker could tell which person is our 7th dan instructor. Just because someone is higher ranked in tkd does not mean they are higher ranked in 'life'. I was walking with a friend one time at the shops (he is a karateka) and he saw his sensei. We went up to say hello and my friend bowed and talked to him as if he was superior to him in someway. I dont understand this, in the dojo certainly I agree but with belts off its different to me. At work I treat all of my employees differently than I would if I just ran into them at the shops, I am not better than them and I am only their superior in the work place. I would not expect them to walk up and grovel and bow if they saw me outside of work. Actually I remember the first time I was invited out for a few drinks with some of my seniors. I motioned to the waiter to serve them first, as I though this was the right thing to do. They motioned back to the waiter to serve me first and my instructor said to me "belts off here mate, we're all equal". I really respected him for that as I believe a lot of martial artists use their rank inside the dojang to make themselves out to be "better" than others outside the dojang.

Our school is similar in that when "belts are off" as you say, things are not so formal. This is one of the great life lessons my kids are learning through TKD. I've seen people struggle in the work place because they could not grasp this concept. They didn't understand why their buddy that they went drinking with on Friday night was now (on Monday morning) treating them like a subordinate. Relationships in real life often change drastically depending on the immediate context. Shortly after starting TKD my son who was 14 or so hit it off with a teen black belt. This other kid is very serious about TKD and does a lot of assisting in class. The two boys would laugh and joke in the warm up room like two equal high school kids and then step on the mat in the training hall and instantly the other kid expected a different level of respect. Then after class, back to two normal high school kids. This threw my son for a loop the first couple months. He's got it now. I've enjoyed watching him grow and mature in this area.

 

[Archangel M]

Using the example of the military again, fraternization is "prohibited". Is it enforced? Not normally until it obviously starts to interfere with work. By the book, officers should hang with officers, NCOs with NCOs and lower enlisted ranks with their peers.

Comparing martial arts classes with the military/employment situations is a stretch IMO. I am paying THEM for a service. I am not an employee and I am not enlisting or taking an oath to place myself in a subordinate position to a commander who I agree to take orders from at the risk of legal/financial penalty. Even propagating the whole military/employment=a 2-3 time a week martial arts class is what results in "martial fantasyism". I bow in class as a courtesy/formality...I use martial terms ("sensei"...etc) and give deference as part of participating in a class and co-operating so as to facilitate the educational process. Other than that the teacher is a citizen just like I or my neighbors unless I develop some sort of relationship that I agree to. Demanding some sort of military 24-7-365 "respect structure" becomes more about supporting some peoples weak egos than it does about anything else.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Puunui

Got your PM. tried to reply.

Your box is full.

Send an e-mail to my regular aol account and I will advise further.

 

[Earl Weiss]

Comparing martial arts classes with the military/employment situations is a stretch IMO. I am paying THEM for a service. I am not an employee and I am not enlisting or taking an oath to place myself in a subordinate position to a commander who I agree to take orders from at the risk of legal/financial penalty. Even propagating the whole military/employment=a 2-3 time a week martial arts class is what results in "martial fantasyism". I bow in class as a courtesy/formality...I use martial terms ("sensei"...etc) and give deference as part of participating in a class and co-operating so as to facilitate the educational process. Other than that the teacher is a citizen just like I or my neighbors unless I develop some sort of relationship that I agree to. Demanding some sort of military 24-7-365 "respect structure" becomes more about supporting some peoples weak egos than it does about anything else.

I inderstand and appreciate your viewpoint.

I tell my students that they always have a choice not to do what the instructor says if they have issues with regard to morality or health. However, they do not have a choice with regars to disrespectful refusal. They can simply say that they respectfuly decline to engage in the activity and if appropriate leave the gym. Any instructor issues can be resolved with me later. Never happened yet.

That being said, I do not view my instruction as just another commodity to be purchased. (If I did, then I would chrge a lot more. ) If your attitude stinks, then you do not have enough money to pay fr my instruction.

So, AFAIAC the business / consumer model doea not fit. In fact I tell students that if they choose to learn from me (I stole this from somewhere) they incur a debt that cannot be repaid with money. It is only repaid by helping propogate the art by assisting others in their learning.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

A belt is a piece of fabric. Do people lose their knowledge and experience when they take off a belt? Are you respecting the belt, or the person? When my instructor takes off his belt, it doesn't change his knowledge or experience, or make him a different person - and it is the person I respect.

As to the belt itself (or the uniform, or position, or whatever external symbols represent rank in anything), in a setting where the symbol has direct relevance (the dojang, or the military base, or the CEO's office, etc.) then I will demonstrate respect for the symbol, and the person who has earned the rank demonstrated by the symbol, as appropriate to the setting. But if I respect the person, then I will demonstrate that respect whether the symbol is present or not.

"belts off" is a figure of speech, the belt is just symbolic of their knowledge and experience inside the dojang, basically meaning that in the dojang they are higher than you. Outside the dojang when "belts are off", you are even pecking. Many people try and use their status they have in the dojo and try and to use it outide the dojo.

 

[puunui]

There are lots of people that "know what they are doing" but then still do it wrong. I don't consider blind allegiance a sign of respect nor do I consider questioning a persons bizarre actions to be a sign of disrespect.

Is that what you think I am about, blind allegiance?

I don't think it would have been out of line or disrespectful for you to ask him why he did what he did either in that first year or several years later had the pain persisted. I am not saying get all up in his face, but I would have questioned him at some point and I don't think it would have been disrespectful to do so.

I did ask him what he was doing, before and during he was doing it. His response was a smile and a nod. If he had given me more of an answer, then it would have in my opinion dramatically changed the lesson that I learned. In many situations in the martial arts, the higher you go, the less explanation given. Or needed.

 

[puunui]

Certainly social situations are different from formal situations. Some would say that you should not fraternize with your superiors outside of the workplace to maintain the necessary respect.

I think there is something to be said for that. I don't for example, go drinking with the receptionist, file clerks or secretaries in the office. When we do socialize it is at office functions like an office lunch or office Christmas party.

Having said that, I do not distinguish between inside the dojang and outside the dojang. In fact, most of my face to face time with seniors are outside of the dojang. In fact, I have never seen some of my seniors in a dobok because we do not interact on that level. To take it further, when I have seen some of my seniors in their dobok, it was the exception rather than the rule. Most of the time when I see my seniors, we have all taken a plane flight to somewhere and we are wearing suits.

 

[puunui]

Comparing martial arts classes with the military/employment situations is a stretch IMO. I am paying THEM for a service. I am not an employee and I am not enlisting or taking an oath to place myself in a subordinate position to a commander who I agree to take orders from at the risk of legal/financial penalty. Even propagating the whole military/employment=a 2-3 time a week martial arts class is what results in "martial fantasyism". I bow in class as a courtesy/formality...I use martial terms ("sensei"...etc) and give deference as part of participating in a class and co-operating so as to facilitate the educational process. Other than that the teacher is a citizen just like I or my neighbors unless I develop some sort of relationship that I agree to. Demanding some sort of military 24-7-365 "respect structure" becomes more about supporting some peoples weak egos than it does about anything else.

That to me is a lower level perspective. If you wish to travel farther than the beginning stages of the journey, then your perspective will have to change. Otherwise, you won't get very far, in my opinion. The martial arts is not a commodity to be bought or sold, and for those that think this way, I believe they end up paying a much higher price in the long run. I have NEVER viewed myself as a customer with any of my instructors. When I choose an instructor I do so with the understanding that they set the terms and conditions of my learning, just like any other school.

 

[Balrog]

How about about if you go to boot camp and the drill instructor starts yelling and swearing at you? Do you lose inner respect for the drill instructor at that point? And if you did, do you act courteously to him, or is it ok at that point to plot his demise?

No, because that's the drill instructor's job.

Which example should we follow, realizing that someone is the real deal and therefore we learn from them ALL the lessons presented, or do we harm our teacher or senior because we mistakenly believe he/she has somehow disrespected or hurt us?

Did I say anything about harming anyone? I said my respect level would go down, as it should. I pointed out that there are people that I "bow to the belt" with. That doesn't mean I'm not willing to learn martial arts from them, but I'm sure not going to try to emulate them in my life.

 

[puunui]

That being said, I do not view my instruction as just another commodity to be purchased.

Another way to look at it is if you view it yourself as a customer, then don't be surprised when you are treated like one when they send you the bill.

I like movie analogies, and the one that comes to mind is Kill Bill 1. When Beatrix first meets Hatori Hanzo (Sonny Chiba) in his sushiya, Hattori Hanzo treats her as if she was a student in a commerical dojang. What I mean by that is, he is smiling, encouraging, gives small corrections and much positive reinforcement, all the things that the martial arts business gurus say to do. What he does still has some connection to sharpened steel, his sushi knife, which he uses to expertly cut flesh, but it is not the same as his true calling. In fact, when it becomes apparent that beatrix is not a "customer", he shows her his swords but emphasizes "These are NOT for sale."

So if you want to see yourself as a customer, and act like one, then you might get the sushi, but you will never see the upstairs.

 

[puunui]

No, because that's the drill instructor's job.

Sure, but how do you know when your instructor is doing his job, and when he is not? Many who choose to disrespect their teachers and seniors fail to make the distinction.

Did I say anything about harming anyone? I said my respect level would go down, as it should. I pointed out that there are people that I "bow to the belt" with. That doesn't mean I'm not willing to learn martial arts from them, but I'm sure not going to try to emulate them in my life.

You don't have to say anything about harming anyone. There are plenty examples of that (not necessarily talking about you, so don't feel this is directed at you), where juniors or students feel that they were "disrespected" and therefore were entitled to some retribution against their seniors or teachers. It is a very short walk from feeling someone is not worthy of respect (rightfully or wrongfully) and acting on that feeling. We see examples of that on MT all the time.

 

[leadleg]

I believe in giving everyone respect and courtesy,right from the get go.Then they have to downgrade themselves,they can lose my respect but I will not lose the ability to act courteous regardless of the lack of respect.
An example would be an instructor who had great talent, who I had huge respect for. He continuously used his students for all kinds of chores around the dojang and in his personal life, never giving back.He charged excessive testing fee's(1200 for 1st dan) and blamed it on KKW costs.Then he quit giving out KKW even though he charged for it.Finally he started selling HKD certificates,even if his students had no experience.He began making up stories about why Korea would not send him certificates, he started BB and master clubs charging way more money then not giving any extra training or time for them.Actually he made it mandatory for all master or bb club students to teach so many hours a week.He finally drove off alll his students and lost his gym.I still see him on once in a while and always bow, as he is still higher rank than me, but I have little respect for him on a personal level.

 

[Archtkd]

An example would be an instructor who had great talent, who I had huge respect for. He continuously used his students for all kinds of chores around the dojang and in his personal life, never giving back.He charged excessive testing fee's(1200 for 1st dan) and blamed it on KKW costs.Then he quit giving out KKW even though he charged for it.Finally he started selling HKD certificates,even if his students had no experience.He began making up stories about why Korea would not send him certificates, he started BB and master clubs charging way more money then not giving any extra training or time for them.Actually he made it mandatory for all master or bb club students to teach so many hours a week.He finally drove off alll his students and lost his gym.I still see him on once in a while and always bow, as he is still higher rank than me, but I have little respect for him on a personal level.

This so describes someone I know.