Respect

[Malleus]

I toyed with placing this in the general self-defence forum, but decided its scope goes beyond that: hence, here.

Respect:
1. To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem.
2. To avoid violation of or interference with.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/respect

Most TMA's seek to ingrain 'respect' in their students; for their art, their sensei, their opponents and themselves. We're taught to respect one another, our parents, our spouses, our children, our elders. Respect the law, respect nature, respect other's opinions.

I think it's obvious that respect can be appropriate in some cases, perhaps not so much in others. Most glaringly: a fight on the street is nearly never one based on respect or consideration for the other person. By teaching students to respect the person fighting them, are we not pulling their teeth? Is respect for a thug, as defined above, compatible with trying to gouge their eyes out? Is it not cultivating the entirely wrong mindset for a life-or-death struggle?

What about respect for your sensei? Those that demand respect, in my limited experience, are the ones that have glaringly obvious faults in their training methods. Those that knew what they were talking about, who didn't stand on ceremony or elevate themselves to demigod status, naturally became respected without any prompting. Does having respect for an ideal or person mean one should never challenge them? Does respect blind us to critical analysis?

There's the school of though that respect should not be freely given, but earned. By giving respect to all that demand it, do we not cheapen it? Conversely, it can be put that a lack of respect is one of the fundamentals underlying just about every evil in the world.

Respect for other's religion or beliefs is a touchy subject: one where people often say 'you don't have to agree with it, just respect it.' Is this a realistic expectation? That you could 'show deferential regard' for something you see as totally ludacris or maybe even abhorrently wrong?

I'm not sure what I think. I'm just talking, and hoping to start a discussion as a result. Over to you guys.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I toyed with placing this in the general self-defence forum, but decided its scope goes beyond that: hence, here.

Respect:
1. To feel or show deferential regard for; esteem.
2. To avoid violation of or interference with.
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/respect

Most TMA's seek to ingrain 'respect' in their students; for their art, their sensei, their opponents and themselves. We're taught to respect one another, our parents, our spouses, our children, our elders. Respect the law, respect nature, respect other's opinions.

I think it's obvious that respect can be appropriate in some cases, perhaps not so much in others. Most glaringly: a fight on the street is nearly never one based on respect or consideration for the other person. By teaching students to respect the person fighting them, are we not pulling their teeth? Is respect for a thug, as defined above, compatible with trying to gouge their eyes out? Is it not cultivating the entirely wrong mindset for a life-or-death struggle?

I have respect for all, and presume they deserve it until they demonstrate otherwise. Attacking me or mine is demonstrating otherwise.

"Any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee." - John Donne

"I come to you with only karate, empty hands. I have no weapons, but should I be forced to defend myself, my honor, or my principals, should it be a matter of life or death, of right or wrong, then here are my weapons, my empty hands." - Isshin-Ryu Karate Creed

If I do not observe the requirements of karate, the first failure is mine; for I have failed to respect both myself and my art. If I have shown respect for all and still been attacked, then my respect for myself and my art, plus whatever skills I have learned as a karateka, are my terrible sharp sword.

What about respect for your sensei? Those that demand respect, in my limited experience, are the ones that have glaringly obvious faults in their training methods. Those that knew what they were talking about, who didn't stand on ceremony or elevate themselves to demigod status, naturally became respected without any prompting. Does having respect for an ideal or person mean one should never challenge them? Does respect blind us to critical analysis?

I am not aware that my sensei has ever demanded anything other than courtesy. I bow in and out of the dojo, I bow to all black belts and my fellow karateka prior to engaging in training (and they return the bow). I use the term 'sensei' when addressing anyone over the rank of San-Dan, and use the term "Mister" and their last name otherwise; they do the same to me.

I have great respect for my senseis, all of them, and not just for their amazing abilities. They volunteer their time, none of them draws a paycheck of any kind, and they are always willing to come early or stay late and demonstrate, teach, spar, or whatever a student asks of them. They're clearly united by their love of Isshin-Ryu and passing that love to students; this is worthy of respect to me.

There's the school of though that respect should not be freely given, but earned. By giving respect to all that demand it, do we not cheapen it? Conversely, it can be put that a lack of respect is one of the fundamentals underlying just about every evil in the world.

Rei, as I understand it, means both politeness and respect. Master Funakoshi said that karate begins and ends with rei; this has been translated as both 'politeness' and 'respect' (even 'courtesy'). I like both meanings. What begins with politeness can end in deep and abiding respect.

If a person demands the forms of politeness be observed, I am more than happy to oblige them; after all, being polite costs me nothing. If they also come to earn my respect, then my rei is the rei of respect. It may look the same from the outside, but what's important is how showing rei makes me feel; that's all internal.

Respect for other's religion or beliefs is a touchy subject: one where people often say 'you don't have to agree with it, just respect it.' Is this a realistic expectation? That you could 'show deferential regard' for something you see as totally ludacris or maybe even abhorrently wrong?

Again, respect versus politeness. I do not believe that a little politeness is misplaced in such situations, regardless of what one may personally believe about any given set of beliefs.

I'm not sure what I think. I'm just talking, and hoping to start a discussion as a result. Over to you guys.

My father used to tell a story about a man who held a door open for a woman. She snapped at him, "You don't have to hold the door for me just because I'm a woman, you know." He replied, "I do not hold the door for you because you are a lady. I hold the door because I am a gentleman." I have always believed that means that rei (respect or politeness, whichever is appropriate) is a reflection upon the person giving it.

 

[blindsage]

I think discussions of respect run into a problem as indicated above in Bill's post. Respect can have two definitions: being respectful and having respect. You can be respectful to people you have no respect for. Two different things. I believe in being respectful to all people, regardless of how much I like or respect them. I don't believe it has to be earned because respectful behavior lubricates the wheels of social interaction. But having my respect is most definitely earned. Those who demand respect are generally satisfied by respectful behavior, those who hope to earn your respect understand that their is a much deeper level of respect beyond politeness.

Those who think they don't need to act respectfully to those who haven't earned their respect are confusing two different ideas, and generally need time to develop more maturity.

Acting respectfully does not require one to drop their guard or require them to think anything specific about the person they are interacting with, but it does require them to detach themselves from their ego.

Personally, I endeavor to treat everyone with respect and behave in ways that would earn the respect of others. At the same time, my respect is not earned easily, though it is not automatically diminished by perceived disrespectful behavior. My feelings aren't hurt that easily.

 

[MJS]

I usually have a blanket policy that applies to everyone, everyone defined as family, friends, coworkers, and people in the martial arts: I always do my best to be respectful. However, I also believe that respect is earned, not demanded. No, I'm sorry, but I'm not going to kiss someones ***, because they have a fancy title and 10 stripes on their belt. Now, that may sound like I'm contradicting myself, but I'm not. I said I would be respectful, but I'm not kissing their ***. Some people think that because they're this rank or that rank, have this or that title, that they should demand respect and treat everyone else like they're a door mat.

 

[chaos1551]

I have come to the philosophy that I respect everyone. Only trust is earned. Both can be lost.

Politeness, however, must always remain.

 

[shesulsa]

"Respect" and "regard" are by Merriam-Webster standards rather interchangeable when you examine their definitions.

Respect - in my opinion - can only ever be given; regardless of deservedness, holding any entity, object or idea in regard, esteem or respect is a choice.

This offering is usually given as the result of awe, fear, adoration, debt/guilt or shame. That said, we can respect a rank but not the person (to me, this would be "regard" - the subtle difference being the obvious understanding that a person holds rank and you will offer whatever is appropriate in that particular situation because social guidelines call for it, yet you think the person is an ***).

The choice to offer regards and respect in general to all is a life choice, really, and needs to be taught as such. To teach blind respect isn't teaching respect - it is teaching idolatry and cultism.

FWIW

 

[KELLYG]

I had to think about this a little. I feel that sometimes people confuse courtesy with respect. Being polite, courteous is different from respect, they are two different things. I try to be polite and courteous to everyone I come into contact with, respect is different. It has to be earned. Respect also ebbs and flows, and is a directly associated with a person's actions and deeds.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I am thinking of an analogy, which is the military.

In the US military, all enlisted persons render salutes to all officers.

Is this 'respect'? Yes, it is. Does it mean that the person rendering the salute has respect for the officer? It might, and it might not. They may not even know the officer in question; so it may simply be a form of courtesy, even if it is mandatory in the armed forces to do so.

I also note, for those who have told me in the past that they could never be in the military because they could not bring themselves to salute someone they did not have respect for; the officer is obligated to return the salute, just as the enlisted person is required to render the salute in the first place. It is a mutual exchange.

I have never fully understood people who respond with hostility when asked to show basic courtesy as a requirement of some activity. Whether it is saluting when in the military or bowing in a dojo, or using a polite form of address such as 'sir' or 'sensei' or what-have-you. It has always seemed to me that some folks just have an absolute melt-down about behaving politely - they refuse to do it unless they personally know the person and feel like being polite. Otherwise, they consider even a simple act of politeness as being asked to kiss the person's butt.

So many things are out of our control, that when we have some level of control, it seems to me to be a good idea to take it. This applies to many things; and it includes self-defense. I feel that the best defense is to avoid having to fight. Make sense, right? But how many people here will refuse to back down to a challenge or rude words or an insult, because 'they should not have to'? Yes, I understand that they should not have to, but doing so anyway keeps the fight from happening in the first place.

This goes also to respect. Showing respect in the form of politeness is no skin off of anybody's nose. No one loses money or face, nor does their phallum bway-bway get smaller if they simply say please, thank you, bow or call someone sensei or sifu because they ask to be called that. But people get their panties in a twist and refuse to to it - because they 'should not have to do it'. Of course they don't have to do it. There is no Politeness Man with a stainless steel hankie out there bringing rude bastiches to justice.

Why is it so hard for some folks to bow when they enter a dojo, or to use a form of address that some martial arts instructor requests? Does it take money out of their pocket, or make them less manly in some way I just don't understand?

Respect is earned, yes. But respect in the form of courtesy is easy to give, makes society work more smoothly, and reflects positively on your own upbringing. Refusing to show the forms of respect because "I should not have to" seems to me to be the mark of someone a bit common.