regarding comments by Flashlock's instructor:

zDom

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 21, 2006
Messages
3,081
Reaction score
105
Hi,

My plan had been to jump into BJJ in about 3 months after I lost about 15 lbs.

To be honest, this forum has gotten me so curious/ riled up, I joined the BJJ club in downtown Melbourne (Oz) yesterday.

Congratulations! Sounds like you've started what will be an exciting journey.

I asked the teacher some of the questions I've been asking in this form, and brought up some of your points. He has 15 years experience in Karate, but his passion is BJJ (he has several years experience as a bouncer). He is a multiple BJJ Australian and NZ champion. He told me he is biased, so you have to take what he says with a grain.

From what follows, I would venture to say he didn't train with a very good karate instructor.

1. "BJJ doesn't work vs multiple opponents." - He said that nothing really works against two fighters who are WORKING TOGETHER in a strategic manner. Your best option, regardless of style, is to kick the first one in the groin, and then take the other out or run.

Well, having fought multiple opponents on several occassions, I would disagree. You are much better off standing and moving than tied up rolling with one guy while the others take free shots.

Most fights against multiple attackers won't be trained fighters "WORKING TOGETHER in a strategic manner." Most often it is going to be an aggressor and his friends trying to help out. Been there, got the T-shirt.

2. "BJJ works because of all the rules in a sports ring--outside of that, it's not nearly as effective." - He said BJJ started without any rules, the rules came later because people were getting very injured in BJJ / MA street wars (no rules whatsoever).

I agree. Same thing happened with Olympic TKD, Judo, point-style karate, boxing, wrestling, etc. etc.

BJJ works in groundwork, IMO, because of physics and physiology — just like other martial arts based in reality (as opposed to mystical forces).

And training hard, like most BJJ schools are reportedly doing, helps a bunch, too.

3. "In a real fight, the BJJ will get his eyes gouged, scratched, and his arms bitten." He said (after laughing) that if the pinnacle of your art is an eye gouge or bite, you are in trouble. Try to gouge someone's eyes out in a fight--you'll probably break your fingers when you miss against a resisting opponent.

Well, I agree you shouldn't rely on a few "dirty techniques" to get by on. But you should be aware that things in a self defense situation ARE different than in training. But then, ALL martial artists should realize that and keep that in mind.

4. "Our art has grappling!" He said they have to have grappling, or they would have to shut down--and the grappling he's seen is TERRIBLE in his opinion.

Hapkido was around long before BJJ. But yea, BJJ definately woke a lot of people up, reinforced that idea that is IS important.

5. He asked where all the Kung Fu guys and TKD guys and Ninja masters are challenging the Gracies and everyone else, and defeating them... all of them. It doesn't happen becuase, and forgive me, he thinks their arts are crap because they don't work. This from someone who did karate for 15 years. They work if someone just stands there and gets hit, but he said they usually don't pracitce vs people moving into the strike into the grappling range.

We've all grown up and prefer not to go to prison for dueling.

It's too bad he doesn't have a respect for other martial arts. That attitude might result in him getting hurt someday because he underestimated other systems.

And, as mentioned above, it sounds like the karate school he studied at was crap. That doesn't mean ALL karate is crap, however. It is a mistake to think so.

6. BJJ people fight at full speed, full strength, every class. No, "Oh, this death touch is so powerful, we can't use it." He said that that was a cop out--prove it or shut up.

No cop out; we go hard very often, but FULL speed and FULL strength will get people HURT in our TKD schools around here.

Even going "medium contact" with protective gear can be pretty rough.

It's not a matter of "death touch." It's a matter of physics and physiology.

If he is ever in the Cape Girardeau area, I would be happy to show him.

I am not issuing a "challenge" btw, I'm just saying he should come watch the way we spar and see what he thinks. It may be very different than what he saw around his particular karate dojo.

I won't be shutting up anytime soon, fwiw :)

But as far as going "full speed, full strength, every class"? Naw, not at my age. Unlike rolling, full contact striking leaves a lot of bruises. It can be pretty hard on the body. I am willing to put on the pads and go hard with another top student around here if he would like to see it sometime.

And, fwiw, I acknowledge that groundwork/grappling is hard work. Very intense. But it isn't the ONLY way to get a good workout.

Let it just suffice to say grapplers aren't the ONLY ones drenching mats with sweat. ;)

7. Most of the people he said that were criticising BJJ have never even taken a class. Basically, they don't know what the hell they're talking about and should take 3 months of BJJ or shut up. It's usually a one way stream: people leaving their art to join BJJ, almost never the other way around.

I don't criticise BJJ as being crap (like he criticizes MY art). I just point out some things from my experience. I KNOW BJJ is a very fine system of ground fighting.

But groundfighting in general (not BJJ in particular) has issues you MUST keep in mind.

People leaving their art to join BJJ? A temporary trend. BJJ should enjoy it while they can and built a solid base that will sustain them once the "boom" is over — like TKD did. TKD is still going strong, fwiw.

Hapkido never has had mass appeal. Some of the techniques look pretty scary to practice to newbies and the workouts tend to be VERY demanding.

The flock of sheep-like humans will always move on to the latest fad. In fact, they already have to some extent: It is more "MMA" today that BJJ. BJJ was yesterday. Ninjitsu was the day before. JKD the day before that.

Anyway, those were his opinions... just food for thought.

He obviously believes in his art: that is a good thing. Conviction is good. Why train in an art you don't believe in?

I still think he is making wide generalizations based on a limited experience.

(PS: I have never been so tired after a single martial arts class in my life! Amazing, I recommend everyone at least try a few classes, great stuff! I got my butt kicked--.... and loving it!)

Sounds like you are getting great training! Keep at it! That is maybe one of the most critical factors in martial art training: not quitting. Make it a life-long pursuit and you will not regret it.

Best regards!
 

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
427
Location
Cromwell,CT
Well, first off...thanks Zdom for redirecting this from the other thread. :) No sense in taking that one off topic. :)

As for the post.


My plan had been to jump into BJJ in about 3 months after I lost about 15 lbs.

To be honest, this forum has gotten me so curious/ riled up, I joined the BJJ club in downtown Melbourne (Oz) yesterday.

Cool!! I'm sure you'll enjoy it. :)

I asked the teacher some of the questions I've been asking in this form, and brought up some of your points. He has 15 years experience in Karate, but his passion is BJJ (he has several years experience as a bouncer). He is a multiple BJJ Australian and NZ champion. He told me he is biased, so you have to take what he says with a grain.

1. "BJJ doesn't work vs multiple opponents." - He said that nothing really works against two fighters who are WORKING TOGETHER in a strategic manner. Your best option, regardless of style, is to kick the first one in the groin, and then take the other out or run.

I have to disagree with this. There are arts out there that address mult. attackers. In addition, while we may face skilled people, its not likely that everyone we face in the real world will be as skilled as a professional fighter.

2. "BJJ works because of all the rules in a sports ring--outside of that, it's not nearly as effective." - He said BJJ started without any rules, the rules came later because people were getting very injured in BJJ / MA street wars (no rules whatsoever).

I agree, it is an effective art. So I'm safe to assume that these street wars included weapons and more than one person?

3. "In a real fight, the BJJ will get his eyes gouged, scratched, and his arms bitten." He said (after laughing) that if the pinnacle of your art is an eye gouge or bite, you are in trouble. Try to gouge someone's eyes out in a fight--you'll probably break your fingers when you miss against a resisting opponent.

There are many things that people have in their toolbox. An eye gouge is a tool just like a punch or kick. If someone is grabbing me from the front, as an example, it could be very possible to reach the eyes. In addition, if the face can be reached with a punch, it shouldn't be too hard to reach the eyes. :)

4. "Our art has grappling!" He said they have to have grappling, or they would have to shut down--and the grappling he's seen is TERRIBLE in his opinion.

Many arts have grappling type attacks/defenses, however, I think its a very good idea to cross train in a grappling art if one really wants to be good in that area.

5. He asked where all the Kung Fu guys and TKD guys and Ninja masters are challenging the Gracies and everyone else, and defeating them... all of them. It doesn't happen becuase, and forgive me, he thinks their arts are crap because they don't work. This from someone who did karate for 15 years. They work if someone just stands there and gets hit, but he said they usually don't pracitce vs people moving into the strike into the grappling range.

I personally have no use for challenge matches, and I agree with what Zdom said regarding this part. I'm more than comfortable with what I do, so thats all that matters to me. :)

6. BJJ people fight at full speed, full strength, every class. No, "Oh, this death touch is so powerful, we can't use it." He said that that was a cop out--prove it or shut up.

Full bore all the time?? Seems like that puts some serious wear and tear on the body. I like picking up the pace, but its also good to go at a med. pace too. Not to mention that I have a full time job that I need to go to.

7. Most of the people he said that were criticising BJJ have never even taken a class. Basically, they don't know what the hell they're talking about and should take 3 months of BJJ or shut up. It's usually a one way stream: people leaving their art to join BJJ, almost never the other way around.

Thats very true, but the same can be said about BJJ. Its impossible to know how everyone trains. I do BJJ, and I'm aware of the strong/weak points. Everything has its limitations. :)

Anyway, those were his opinions... just food for thought.

(PS: I have never been so tired after a single martial arts class in my life! Amazing, I recommend everyone at least try a few classes, great stuff! I got my butt kicked--.... and loving it!)

Points taken. :) I'm glad you're enjoying the classes. :) It would be nice to hear some training updates from time to time. :ultracool

Mike
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
13,770
Reaction score
3,248
Location
San Francisco
I want to point out another issue between grappling methods and striking methods.

Grappling methods have a very distinct advantage in how they train. The nature of the techniques they use enable them to apply them only "so far" as is needed to be effective. Against some opponents, this might mean a lot of application, against others it might mean less application. But the point is, they can apply the techs for real, to just the level needed, and no further. It is possible to avoid real, serious, permanent injury in this way, and that is a real advantage to training. It allows the student to really get a good feel for how the techs work, train them full speed and with heavy physical contact, and it also enables his training partners to come back to class for another workout the next day, instead of going to the hospital from all the injuries acquired in training.

The striking arts are at a disadvantage in training. The very nature of the techniques require a certain amount of caution, preventing techniques from being practiced "for real". And I'm not talking about mystic "death touch" BS. I'm just talking about that good old punch to the nose, backfist to the kidneys, knifehand to the collarbone, sidekick to the front of the knee, front kick to the groin, knee to the spine, elbow to the spine, halffist to the throat, and yes, even the eye gouges and other "dirty tricks". If these techs were done at full speed and full contact, you would quickly run out of training partners, or your own training would be ended instantly, and the lawsuits and wrongful death complaints against you would pile up. The nature of the techniques requires that they NOT be practiced "for real". A certain level of faith needs to be placed in them, inspite of this. If you can't or aren't willing to do that, then go practice a grappling system. It's really your choice to find what you like best.

So the striker is limited to working application drills with partners to develop the useage, timing, accuracy, body sensitivity to make these techniques work. But they always have to be pulled short. Power is developed thru conditioning such as striking a heavy bag, sand bags, wooden dummys, etc. Then, you have to be willing to make a leap of faith that when the rubber hits the pavement, you will be able to combine the different aspects of your training, the useage skills, with the power and conditioning drills, to make the stuff work. There really is no way around it, and that is a disadvantage in training methodology that the striking arts have.

Free sparring is another drill, but again, it's only one drill. It has problems of its own. Many of the more dangerous techs cannot be used, again because of the potential for injury. Sparring can be done with heavy contact, it's good because it gives you experience working under that kind of pressure, but it is limited and isn't a real useage of the full range of the striking art's arsenal. It's OK to recognize this point.

The best that the striking arts can do is to practice different aspects of the art somewhat separately, and then have faith that when push comes to shove, we can pull all the aspects together and make it work.

It sucks, but I believe this is an accurate assessment of the handicap that training a striking art comes with. But inspite of these handicaps, I fully believe that striking arts can be tremendously effective in a fight, or a self defense situation. And that doesn't take anything away from the effectiveness that grappling arts have either. They both can be tremendously effective methods, but each person needs to figure out what he wants to do, one or the other, or both. It's a personal decision.

I just can't see any point in continuing arguements over which is "better". They both have strengths and weaknesses, they both work better or worse under certain circumstances, and a huge huge part of the equation is the person doing the art. It is just silly to dispute, and silly to sit on one side of the fence and try to tell everyone that what they do on the other side somehow won't work.

Read my signature: de gustibus non disputante est. It means: concerning taste, there can be no dispute.

I love my striking arts. I personally don't have much interest in the grappling arts. I don't dispute their effectiveness. I just lack an interest in them, so I don't train them, and I don't care how you might argue that I should. It's my decision, and I am willing to accept any consequences of that decision. But I'm not out to convince the world that I'm the toughest badass around, either. I don't give two poops about that nonsense. I've run from more fights than I've fought, even after twenty years of training. Those were victories, because I escaped uninjured. That's winning for real, it doesn't threaten my masculinity to admit that I look for the first escape route and run from a fight at the first chance.

de gustibus non disputante est. I also like rhubarb pie. No amount of arguing or reasoning will change my mind about that. And if you don't happen to like it, I can't change your mind about it. Let's put this argument to rest, and maybe we can have some intelligent discussions that we can learn from. Listen to the experience of what others have had, and take whatever lessons you can from it. Think about it and perhaps grow from it.
 

jks9199

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 2, 2006
Messages
22,161
Reaction score
2,336
Location
Northern VA
Well, having fought multiple opponents on several occassions, I would disagree. You are much better off standing and moving than tied up rolling with one guy while the others take free shots.

Most fights against multiple attackers won't be trained fighters "WORKING TOGETHER in a strategic manner." Most often it is going to be an aggressor and his friends trying to help out. Been there, got the T-shirt
.

Even cops, who have practiced, trained, and are in theory experienced at coordinating their actions often get in each other's way and generally end up in the proverbial "pig pile" when they have to go at a single resister... The exceptions are jail response teams and similar HIGHLY trained, tightly coordinated units. And, in truth, even they tend to get in each other's way more often than not! I swear some of my partners have hit me harder (and more often!) than they hit the guys we were arresting! (But maybe that's just my winning personality...)


I don't criticise BJJ as being crap (like he criticizes MY art). I just point out some things from my experience. I KNOW BJJ is a very fine system of ground fighting.
....

He obviously believes in his art: that is a good thing. Conviction is good. Why train in an art you don't believe in?
....
I still think he is making wide generalizations based on a limited experience.

"Just as no one nation holds a monopoly on the sunlight, no one way, belief or system holds a monopoly on the truth." Just something that some folks might want to consider...

Each system has it's own answer to the question of "what do I do when..." or "how do I use my body to deal with holds, throws, and blows?" None is perfect. Some may have a wider range of choices, while others delve more deeply into fewer choices. Some are finely tuned, precision approaches while others are more rough & ready... That doesn't make one better than the other. (And I know, I'm generally preaching to the choir here.)
 

Touch Of Death

Sr. Grandmaster
MTS Alumni
Joined
May 6, 2003
Messages
11,610
Reaction score
844
Location
Spokane Valley WA
Upon reading the suggestion that you kick in multiple oponent situation I would take the rest with a grain of salt.
Sean
 

flashlock

Banned Troll
Joined
Feb 21, 2007
Messages
144
Reaction score
1
Location
Melbourne, Aus
I want to point out another issue between grappling methods and striking methods.

Grappling methods have a very distinct advantage in how they train. The nature of the techniques they use enable them to apply them only "so far" as is needed to be effective. Against some opponents, this might mean a lot of application, against others it might mean less application. But the point is, they can apply the techs for real, to just the level needed, and no further. It is possible to avoid real, serious, permanent injury in this way, and that is a real advantage to training. It allows the student to really get a good feel for how the techs work, train them full speed and with heavy physical contact, and it also enables his training partners to come back to class for another workout the next day, instead of going to the hospital from all the injuries acquired in training.

The striking arts are at a disadvantage in training. The very nature of the techniques require a certain amount of caution, preventing techniques from being practiced "for real". And I'm not talking about mystic "death touch" BS. I'm just talking about that good old punch to the nose, backfist to the kidneys, knifehand to the collarbone, sidekick to the front of the knee, front kick to the groin, knee to the spine, elbow to the spine, halffist to the throat, and yes, even the eye gouges and other "dirty tricks". If these techs were done at full speed and full contact, you would quickly run out of training partners, or your own training would be ended instantly, and the lawsuits and wrongful death complaints against you would pile up. The nature of the techniques requires that they NOT be practiced "for real". A certain level of faith needs to be placed in them, inspite of this. If you can't or aren't willing to do that, then go practice a grappling system. It's really your choice to find what you like best.

So the striker is limited to working application drills with partners to develop the useage, timing, accuracy, body sensitivity to make these techniques work. But they always have to be pulled short. Power is developed thru conditioning such as striking a heavy bag, sand bags, wooden dummys, etc. Then, you have to be willing to make a leap of faith that when the rubber hits the pavement, you will be able to combine the different aspects of your training, the useage skills, with the power and conditioning drills, to make the stuff work. There really is no way around it, and that is a disadvantage in training methodology that the striking arts have.

Free sparring is another drill, but again, it's only one drill. It has problems of its own. Many of the more dangerous techs cannot be used, again because of the potential for injury. Sparring can be done with heavy contact, it's good because it gives you experience working under that kind of pressure, but it is limited and isn't a real useage of the full range of the striking art's arsenal. It's OK to recognize this point.

The best that the striking arts can do is to practice different aspects of the art somewhat separately, and then have faith that when push comes to shove, we can pull all the aspects together and make it work.

It sucks, but I believe this is an accurate assessment of the handicap that training a striking art comes with. But inspite of these handicaps, I fully believe that striking arts can be tremendously effective in a fight, or a self defense situation. And that doesn't take anything away from the effectiveness that grappling arts have either. They both can be tremendously effective methods, but each person needs to figure out what he wants to do, one or the other, or both. It's a personal decision.

I just can't see any point in continuing arguements over which is "better". They both have strengths and weaknesses, they both work better or worse under certain circumstances, and a huge huge part of the equation is the person doing the art. It is just silly to dispute, and silly to sit on one side of the fence and try to tell everyone that what they do on the other side somehow won't work.

Read my signature: de gustibus non disputante est. It means: concerning taste, there can be no dispute.

I love my striking arts. I personally don't have much interest in the grappling arts. I don't dispute their effectiveness. I just lack an interest in them, so I don't train them, and I don't care how you might argue that I should. It's my decision, and I am willing to accept any consequences of that decision. But I'm not out to convince the world that I'm the toughest badass around, either. I don't give two poops about that nonsense. I've run from more fights than I've fought, even after twenty years of training. Those were victories, because I escaped uninjured. That's winning for real, it doesn't threaten my masculinity to admit that I look for the first escape route and run from a fight at the first chance.

de gustibus non disputante est. I also like rhubarb pie. No amount of arguing or reasoning will change my mind about that. And if you don't happen to like it, I can't change your mind about it. Let's put this argument to rest, and maybe we can have some intelligent discussions that we can learn from. Listen to the experience of what others have had, and take whatever lessons you can from it. Think about it and perhaps grow from it.

Great post! Thank you, sir.
 

flashlock

Banned Troll
Joined
Feb 21, 2007
Messages
144
Reaction score
1
Location
Melbourne, Aus
Well, first off...thanks Zdom for redirecting this from the other thread. :) No sense in taking that one off topic. :)

As for the post.




Cool!! I'm sure you'll enjoy it. :)

I asked the teacher some of the questions I've been asking in this form, and brought up some of your points. He has 15 years experience in Karate, but his passion is BJJ (he has several years experience as a bouncer). He is a multiple BJJ Australian and NZ champion. He told me he is biased, so you have to take what he says with a grain.



I have to disagree with this. There are arts out there that address mult. attackers. In addition, while we may face skilled people, its not likely that everyone we face in the real world will be as skilled as a professional fighter.



I agree, it is an effective art. So I'm safe to assume that these street wars included weapons and more than one person?



There are many things that people have in their toolbox. An eye gouge is a tool just like a punch or kick. If someone is grabbing me from the front, as an example, it could be very possible to reach the eyes. In addition, if the face can be reached with a punch, it shouldn't be too hard to reach the eyes. :)



Many arts have grappling type attacks/defenses, however, I think its a very good idea to cross train in a grappling art if one really wants to be good in that area.



I personally have no use for challenge matches, and I agree with what Zdom said regarding this part. I'm more than comfortable with what I do, so thats all that matters to me. :)



Full bore all the time?? Seems like that puts some serious wear and tear on the body. I like picking up the pace, but its also good to go at a med. pace too. Not to mention that I have a full time job that I need to go to.



Thats very true, but the same can be said about BJJ. Its impossible to know how everyone trains. I do BJJ, and I'm aware of the strong/weak points. Everything has its limitations. :)



Points taken. :) I'm glad you're enjoying the classes. :) It would be nice to hear some training updates from time to time. :ultracool

Mike

From what I've learned recently, I think Hopkido looks like a very good striking art, and at least makes a very big nod toward realistic grappling.

My instructor makes no bones about it--he thinks all striking arts are pretty worthless. His story, he was a blackbelt in karate, and his friend was a boxer, and they got sick of all the BJJ hype, so unlike some people, they went down there and challenged them. He fought someone much smaller than him, and got choked unconscious twice within 5 minutes. He's entitled to his opinion, and at least he's not mushy. Hey, I like eye jabs and side kicks to the knee or snap kicks to the groin--great strikes. I don't think you need too much beyond that.

Thanks! I will not lose my respect for fellow Martial Artists (this instructor is a self-described smart ***, take him with a grain, I guess). I've seen him roll, man it is like a boa constrictor, constant motion, and he always seems in control--very bad ***.
 

Brad Dunne

Brown Belt
Joined
Feb 6, 2005
Messages
472
Reaction score
25
2. "BJJ works because of all the rules in a sports ring--outside of that, it's not nearly as effective." - He said BJJ started without any rules, the rules came later because people were getting very injured in BJJ / MA street wars (no rules whatsoever).

When the UFC first started and for folks who don't know, the Gracie's actually formated the UFC, there were rules. If you care to do a search, that information is available.
 

Carol

Crazy like a...
MT Mentor
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Jan 16, 2006
Messages
20,311
Reaction score
540
Location
NH
One thing is for sure Flashlock, your instructor was right about there being a lot of bad grappling out there. There are more than a few instructors out there trying to teach some tricks they learned after hacking around with a couple of drinking buddies and calling it "grappling". People that teach what they don't understand aren't doing grappling, or their own art, any good at all.
 

Cruentus

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
7,162
Reaction score
129
Location
At an OP in view of your house...
Just wanted to make a point (from someone who has also been enjoying BJJ training recently):

There is a pretty large gap between two people posturing and people trying to kill each other.

Two people who decide to fight each other to see which style is better or which fighter is better are two individuals who are posturing. There are "rules," even if they aren't specifying what those are. In other words, can I show up to a gracie challange and shot my opponent with my 45? No. Of course not. There are rules and expectations, even in duels.

In the street or on the field, there are more tactical considerations to worry about, and these are situations where far more is at stake. This is far different then a dojo challange, which are at best silly.

Just don't forget the difference between the two; because if you go into a self-defense encounter with posturing in mind, you could find yourself getting hurt or worse by some jackass who doesn't even train.

That said, have a good time with BJJ, as it will help you get better as a martial artist! :)
 

flashlock

Banned Troll
Joined
Feb 21, 2007
Messages
144
Reaction score
1
Location
Melbourne, Aus
One thing is for sure Flashlock, your instructor was right about there being a lot of bad grappling out there. There are more than a few instructors out there trying to teach some tricks they learned after hacking around with a couple of drinking buddies and calling it "grappling". People that teach what they don't understand aren't doing grappling, or their own art, any good at all.

Yeah, you know, the whole thing is, just take one class of BJJ for free, one hour, and you'll see what real grappling is. I know I'm annoying--I found BJJ annoying. I have choosen to be as honest as I can, and that means that I have to throw away YEARS of things I was doing that don't work (for me). Rolling around on a mat with hairy, smelly guys is not my idea of a nice time (not without having my dinner paid for first, maybe a movie, too). BJJ is the only MA where I am scared of the WHITE belts. If you've been to a good BJJ club, you won't be scoffing at being fearful of whitebelts... even if now you hold a 1st dan. I wish I was exagerrating... but I'm not. I suggest everyone give a go, what do you have to lose?
 

Carol

Crazy like a...
MT Mentor
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Jan 16, 2006
Messages
20,311
Reaction score
540
Location
NH
Yeah, you know, the whole thing is, just take one class of BJJ for free, one hour, and you'll see what real grappling is. I know I'm annoying--I found BJJ annoying. I have choosen to be as honest as I can, and that means that I have to throw away YEARS of things I was doing that don't work (for me). Rolling around on a mat with hairy, smelly guys is not my idea of a nice time (not without having my dinner paid for first, maybe a movie, too). BJJ is the only MA where I am scared of the WHITE belts. If you've been to a good BJJ club, you won't be scoffing at being fearful of whitebelts... even if now you hold a 1st dan. I wish I was exagerrating... but I'm not. I suggest everyone give a go, what do you have to lose?

I actually think that can be said of a lot of styles. If you go to a good club, you can find some pretty mean white belts. Much like if you go to a not-so-good club, you'll find some pretty lame examples of the art, be it grappling or a striking art. :)
 

flashlock

Banned Troll
Joined
Feb 21, 2007
Messages
144
Reaction score
1
Location
Melbourne, Aus
I actually think that can be said of a lot of styles. If you go to a good club, you can find some pretty mean white belts. Much like if you go to a not-so-good club, you'll find some pretty lame examples of the art, be it grappling or a striking art. :)

Good point!
 

FearlessFreep

Senior Master
Joined
Dec 20, 2004
Messages
3,088
Reaction score
96
Location
Phoenix, Arizona
Yeah, you know, the whole thing is, just take one class of BJJ for free, one hour, and you'll see what real grappling is. I know I'm annoying--I found BJJ annoying. I have choosen to be as honest as I can, and that means that I have to throw away YEARS of things I was doing that don't work (for me). Rolling around on a mat with hairy, smelly guys is not my idea of a nice time (not without having my dinner paid for first, maybe a movie, too). BJJ is the only MA where I am scared of the WHITE belts. If you've been to a good BJJ club, you won't be scoffing at being fearful of whitebelts... even if now you hold a 1st dan. I wish I was exagerrating... but I'm not. I suggest everyone give a go, what do you have to lose?

Just some random thoughts...

I've taken formal BJJ classes (4 mos. 1/2 times a week) from a pure BJJ instructor and my current instructor learned BJJ from David Meyers (we follow his program). My original art was Taekwondo and my current main art is Hapkido. So I've got a little variety in my short time.

All I can say is....BJJ is a useful art. It has strengths and weakness, like all arts. I would say that for any artist, an awareness of how a grappler wants to do is vital. If you want to stay on your feet, learn how a ground fighter is going to want to take you down, and train to stop it. A good takedown defense defeats a good takedown, and of course the reverse is also true. I don't particularly like ground fighting (especially for defense purposes) but I train in it anyway because it's an important component. My main goal in ground figting is a) how to keep from being taken down b) how to survive on the ground c) how to get back up.

There's no takedown you can use that I cannot defend, and there is no takedown defense I can use that you cannot beat, so it ends up being which one of is better at executing our techinque.

There is no magic in Taekwondo kicks or Hapkido joint locks or Muy Thai knees or Judo throws or BJJ submissions. They work because the person executing them is better at the execution the the defender is at countering, or they fail for the opposite reason.

You can't tyrain all arts, but you should be aware of how general discplines are going to attack and at least train to defend yourself against that.
 

MJS

Administrator
Staff member
Lifetime Supporting Member
Joined
Jun 21, 2003
Messages
30,187
Reaction score
427
Location
Cromwell,CT
From what I've learned recently, I think Hopkido looks like a very good striking art, and at least makes a very big nod toward realistic grappling.

I don't know alot about Hapkido, but going on what some members here say about it, it seems like its in there. :)

My instructor makes no bones about it--he thinks all striking arts are pretty worthless. His story, he was a blackbelt in karate, and his friend was a boxer, and they got sick of all the BJJ hype, so unlike some people, they went down there and challenged them. He fought someone much smaller than him, and got choked unconscious twice within 5 minutes. He's entitled to his opinion, and at least he's not mushy. Hey, I like eye jabs and side kicks to the knee or snap kicks to the groin--great strikes. I don't think you need too much beyond that.

Yes, he is entitled. It is a shame though because there is stuff to gain from all arts. Just because one person doesn't have luck with something, does not mean that its totally useless. Look at Chuck Liddell. Regardless of his grappling background, pretty much all of his vicotries have been won with strikes. :)

Thanks! I will not lose my respect for fellow Martial Artists (this instructor is a self-described smart ***, take him with a grain, I guess). I've seen him roll, man it is like a boa constrictor, constant motion, and he always seems in control--very bad ***.

Well, thats the important thing. Have a good time in your training and seeing that there are so many arts out there, if you find something that you can use from another art, add it to your tool bag. :)

Mike
 

exile

To him unconquered.
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
10,669
Reaction score
247
Location
Columbus, Ohio
A good takedown defense defeats a good takedown, and of course the reverse is also true....There's no takedown you can use that I cannot defend, and there is no takedown defense I can use that you cannot beat, so it ends up being which one of is better at executing our techinque.

I don't think I've ever seen this pointwhich almost everyone who posts on the issue here at MT seems to accept and defendexpressed quite so concisely and elegantly.

There is no magic in Taekwondo kicks or Hapkido joint locks or Muy Thai knees or Judo throws or BJJ submissions. They work because the person executing them is better at the execution the the defender is at countering, or they fail for the opposite reason.

You can't tyrain all arts, but you should be aware of how general discplines are going to attack and at least train to defend yourself against that. I don't particularly like ground fighting (especially for defense purposes) but I train in it anyway because it's an important component. My main goal in ground figting is a) how to keep from being taken down b) how to survive on the ground c) how to get back up.

This is the most rational and cool-headed approach to the whole question I can imagine. I suspect that it's one that makes some peopleadvocates of the importance of the art over the individualuncomfortable, because it does something that always makes us uncomfortable: it puts the burden of responsibility on the person training to actively seek out training environments and combat scenarios which are likely to arise and work hard to learn counters and apply those counters. That's very challenging if you aim for effectiveness, because it means you have to train at a much higher level of realism than might be comfortable. If I want to train realistically against the statistically most likely untrained attack openingsgrab/roundhouse combos, grab/knee-to-groin strikes, double-holds-and-headbutts, and the half-dozen or so others that statistically seem to be the biggiesthen I need a partner who will throw those attacks at me with some sincerity, which is very dangerous, even with the best will in the world (as vs. a streetfight, where you're dealing with the worst will in the world). Take a look at what Iain Abernethy has to say about the kata-based combat-sparring training he was one of the chief pioneers in developing in his programmatic overview of kata analysis and realistic combat training based on hard-style oyo:

There are obvious safety issues surrounding kata-based sparring, especially the more extreme variety. I've bled, broken bones and dislocated joints through my own adventures, so I fully appreciate that heavy contact isn't for everyone...[but] it's amazing how many karateka have never practiced fighting from a clinch, landing close-range strikes or executing throws. However all those methods are recorded in the kata they practice in every training session.

(p. 103). I'm very fond of IA's take on things, but I think the juxtaposition of the two parts of this quote is kind of funny. Is it really all that amazing that people don't want to bleed, break bones or dislocate joints by doing the kind of violence-tolerant `all in' fight simulation that IA advocates? Even though he's right, that this kind of training is the only way to train karate techs in a way which gives you maximum preparation for real street conflict against real, bloody-minded assailants? It comes down to what Flying Crane said in his long post earlier, but even more so: apart from striking, a lot of the grappling techs that Abernethy was among the first to show to be implicit in many kata movements are themselves dangerous to applyland the wrong way in a throw and you can wind up in traction, or worse.

I've thought this for a long time: a lot of people who train MAs at some level don't really want to confront the possibility of actually being in a violent situation where their continued health depends on being able to respond immediately and efficiently to an assailant who is quite happy to damage or even kill them. Much easier to assume that there's some art out there, some magic bullet that will in effect carry out the fight for you than to accept that your training will only work in a fight if you train at somewhere close to the level of violence you're going to encounter in the fight. And even if you want to yourself, it's not that easy to find others who want to do the same thing, and who are competent enough at it that you can trust them to get close to the red zone without quite crossing into it...
 
OP
zDom

zDom

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 21, 2006
Messages
3,081
Reaction score
105
Yeah, you know, the whole thing is, just take one class of BJJ for free, one hour, and you'll see what real grappling is. I know I'm annoying--I found BJJ annoying. I have choosen to be as honest as I can, and that means that I have to throw away YEARS of things I was doing that don't work (for me). Rolling around on a mat with hairy, smelly guys is not my idea of a nice time (not without having my dinner paid for first, maybe a movie, too). BJJ is the only MA where I am scared of the WHITE belts. If you've been to a good BJJ club, you won't be scoffing at being fearful of whitebelts... even if now you hold a 1st dan. I wish I was exagerrating... but I'm not. I suggest everyone give a go, what do you have to lose?

Just watching some of Gracie's instructional vids has clearly demonstrated how solid BJJ is for a grappling curriculum.

If one of the Gracies (or someone at their level) set up shop somewhere around here, I probably would spend some time with them to improve my ground game.

As Freep said so well, however, my goals, too, would remain:

"a) how to keep from being taken down b) how to survive on the ground c) how to get back up"

as opposed to developing a preference for fighting on the ground.

On the other hand, in SOME situations, such as dealing with a drunken friend or family member in a safe, friendly area (i.e., you know someone isn't going to run up and boot you in the head) I would say BJJ WOULD absolutely be the best option. BJJ has a nice scalability to it.

We do practice some judo-type pins in MSK hapkido for these types of situations, but I wouldn't mind adding to/building confidence in this facet of my training.
 

Flying Crane

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 21, 2005
Messages
13,770
Reaction score
3,248
Location
San Francisco
I don't think I've ever seen this pointwhich almost everyone who posts on the issue here at MT seems to accept and defendexpressed quite so concisely and elegantly.



This is the most rational and cool-headed approach to the whole question I can imagine. I suspect that it's one that makes some peopleadvocates of the importance of the art over the individualuncomfortable, because it does something that always makes us uncomfortable: it puts the burden of responsibility on the person training to actively seek out training environments and combat scenarios which are likely to arise and work hard to learn counters and apply those counters. That's very challenging if you aim for effectiveness, because it means you have to train at a much higher level of realism than might be comfortable. If I want to train realistically against the statistically most likely untrained attack openingsgrab/roundhouse combos, grab/knee-to-groin strikes, double-holds-and-headbutts, and the half-dozen or so others that statistically seem to be the biggiesthen I need a partner who will throw those attacks at me with some sincerity, which is very dangerous, even with the best will in the world (as vs. a streetfight, where you're dealing with the worst will in the world). Take a look at what Iain Abernethy has to say about the kata-based combat-sparring training he was one of the chief pioneers in developing in his programmatic overview of kata analysis and realistic combat training based on hard-style oyo:

There are obvious safety issues surrounding kata-based sparring, especially the more extreme variety. I've bled, broken bones and dislocated joints through my own adventures, so I fully appreciate that heavy contact isn't for everyone...[but] it's amazing how many karateka have never practiced fighting from a clinch, landing close-range strikes or executing throws. However all those methods are recorded in the kata they practice in every training session.

(p. 103). I'm very fond of IA's take on things, but I think the juxtaposition of the two parts of this quote is kind of funny. Is it really all that amazing that people don't want to bleed, break bones or dislocate joints by doing the kind of violence-tolerant `all in' fight simulation that IA advocates? Even though he's right, that this kind of training is the only way to train karate techs in a way which gives you maximum preparation for real street conflict against real, bloody-minded assailants? It comes down to what Flying Crane said in his long post earlier, but even more so: apart from striking, a lot of the grappling techs that Abernethy was among the first to show to be implicit in many kata movements are themselves dangerous to applyland the wrong way in a throw and you can wind up in traction, or worse.

I've thought this for a long time: a lot of people who train MAs at some level don't really want to confront the possibility of actually being in a violent situation where their continued health depends on being able to respond immediately and efficiently to an assailant who is quite happy to damage or even kill them. Much easier to assume that there's some art out there, some magic bullet that will in effect carry out the fight for you than to accept that your training will only work in a fight if you train at somewhere close to the level of violence you're going to encounter in the fight. And even if you want to yourself, it's not that easy to find others who want to do the same thing, and who are competent enough at it that you can trust them to get close to the red zone without quite crossing into it...


Very good points, thanks for expanding on my earlier ideas.
 

exile

To him unconquered.
Lifetime Supporting Member
MTS Alumni
Joined
Sep 7, 2006
Messages
10,669
Reaction score
247
Location
Columbus, Ohio
Very good points, thanks for expanding on my earlier ideas.

My pleasure, Michael, your ideas are really important and need to be stressed, underscored and amplified, because they tend to get left out of discussions like theseto the detriment of the discussion! :)
 

gixxershane

Green Belt
Joined
May 21, 2006
Messages
145
Reaction score
6
Location
Rhode Island
Yeah, you know, the whole thing is, just take one class of BJJ for free, one hour, and you'll see what real grappling is. I know I'm annoying--I found BJJ annoying. I have choosen to be as honest as I can, and that means that I have to throw away YEARS of things I was doing that don't work (for me). Rolling around on a mat with hairy, smelly guys is not my idea of a nice time (not without having my dinner paid for first, maybe a movie, too). BJJ is the only MA where I am scared of the WHITE belts. If you've been to a good BJJ club, you won't be scoffing at being fearful of whitebelts... even if now you hold a 1st dan. I wish I was exagerrating... but I'm not. I suggest everyone give a go, what do you have to lose?

Just some random thoughts...

I've taken formal BJJ classes (4 mos. 1/2 times a week) from a pure BJJ instructor and my current instructor learned BJJ from David Meyers (we follow his program). My original art was Taekwondo and my current main art is Hapkido. So I've got a little variety in my short time.

All I can say is....BJJ is a useful art. It has strengths and weakness, like all arts. I would say that for any artist, an awareness of how a grappler wants to do is vital. If you want to stay on your feet, learn how a ground fighter is going to want to take you down, and train to stop it. A good takedown defense defeats a good takedown, and of course the reverse is also true. I don't particularly like ground fighting (especially for defense purposes) but I train in it anyway because it's an important component. My main goal in ground figting is a) how to keep from being taken down b) how to survive on the ground c) how to get back up.

There's no takedown you can use that I cannot defend, and there is no takedown defense I can use that you cannot beat, so it ends up being which one of is better at executing our techinque.

There is no magic in Taekwondo kicks or Hapkido joint locks or Muy Thai knees or Judo throws or BJJ submissions. They work because the person executing them is better at the execution the the defender is at countering, or they fail for the opposite reason.

You can't tyrain all arts, but you should be aware of how general discplines are going to attack and at least train to defend yourself against that.


i train in kenpo love it and will still train untill i cant... i wrestled in school that was awsome...

i am going to train in bjj at some point to accent my stand up art... and i think that is what fearlessfreep was saying.. if you combine two arts that compliment each other you will be better off than if you limit your self to a few kicks below the belt and one punch, and the rest in grappling..

i would also like to learn some weapons systems, jiu-jitsu, judo, hapkido,tkd, tang soo do, and so on.. just to be well rounded.. these are just my goals tho..

:drinkbeer cheeres mate, and happy training flashlock!:drinkbeer
 
Top