Realistic Training !!

[Carol]

There was a somewhat infamous exchange in American Kenpo that happened here in Boston. If my memory serves me correctly, this was an exchange between Mr. Huk Planas (SGM Parker's EVP at the time of his passing) and Mr. Tony Cogliandro (one of the highest ranked Kenpo instructors in the Northeast), during a student's test for 2nd or 3rd Black.

The student did not perform his Kenpo to the satisfaction of the attending senior. The senior said he wouldn't award the new rank to the student. The instructor was very upset. "But, he's so good at sparring," the instructor insisted.

"Then give him a black belt in sparring," the senior responded, "and not in American Kenpo."

The way I see it...sparring is a lot of things. It can be a lot of fun and a great adrenaline rush and a way to try new things all sorts of stuff like that. But the Bujinkan teaches Taijutsu, the students pay for Taijutsu instruction and expect to learn Taijutsu, not "all sorts of stuff like that".

 

[Carol]

well when i clicked on it it takes me to his posts. If it is not him who said it I will owe him an apology, and i will give it.

Just as an fyi...

When you (anyone) click on a link in the reputation section, it will open a new browser window will take you to your post that received the reputation score. Your post will be at the top of the screen.

The site administrators have stated in many parts of the board that if you (anyone) has any concerns about the reputation system or the process, to contact them (the administratrors) with your concerns.

Anyway...back to the sparring discussion...

 

[Rook]

And all sparring is different from a real fight. And thus they all share the same possible problems that cryofzombie brought up. Maybe in ways that we are not aware of. Just because we do not see certain problems due to our inexperience, does not mean they are not there.

I don't think I have ever discussed my experiance on the internet, so I don't know how you can draw conclusions about what it is or is not. Every violent physical altercation I have ever been in I have sucessfully used the exact same techniques the exact same way I have done in sparring. However, BBT would work with very different techniques than I use, so I can see how it might be a more sensitive issue.

 

[shinbushi]

The work of Peyton Quinn, Geoff Thompson and Iain Abernethy (guys who I've chosen for my ideal bodyguards on that thread, so I've put my money where my mouth is!) .

On the other side of the coin you have

Tony Blauer From MMA.tv on 01-Jan-03 11:56 AM SPORT VS STREET, for some reason is so misunderstood and I think part of the reason is over-simplifying the literalness of things.
WIthout fully understanding the 'SPEAR SYSTEM' defintion of the 'street' , arguing over a 'semantics' point seems silly.
The methodolgies of most systems that really work are very similar. Is there contact? Sparring? Ground work? Conditioning? and so on...
Generally speaking, everyone teaches the same stuff, but we all know, they dont and as we've all read on the infomercial disclimer's: results may vary
The bottomline is the clarity of the defintion. As in most comparisons, the differnences are in the subtleties...
Someone once asked me, in context of strategy & tactics, what the most important aspect of the fight was...
That simple, I replied: the result.
"The will to win, compares little with the 'will' to prepare to win." -COach Bear Bryant
Happy New Year all.
[FONT=&quot]Tony [/FONT]

 

[DWeidman]

...But the Bujinkan teaches Taijutsu, the students pay for Taijutsu instruction and expect to learn Taijutsu, not "all sorts of stuff like that".

What if the Bujinkan teaches a warrior tradition of combat fighting methods?

But... the training you get doesn't allow you to fight well...

???

Then is simply using a rediculously generic word for "Body... art" an excuse for not teaching usuable skills?



-DW

 

[DWeidman]

If this type of training is frequent, then that means that the habits and skills they have right now are the ones they are burning into themselves for all eternity. And after looking at the standards of the Japanese I train with, I can't say that the habits I saw on that tape are the ones I want to stop at. I am not saying that they are bad, just that their understanding is not where I want to end up in my training.

You mean the shihan today have the same habits they had when they were using randori back with Hatsumi Sensei in the 60/70s?

Or is it possible to learn from the sparring and then readjust your normal training accordingly?

Oh wait -- that is right -- they had PERFECT TAIJUTSU back then. Or else they couldn't spar - right? And they have done what for the past 40 yrs???

-DW

 

[Rook]

What if the Bujinkan teaches a warrior tradition of combat fighting methods?

But... the training you get doesn't allow you to fight well...

???

Then is simply using a rediculously generic word for "Body... art" an excuse for not teaching usuable skills?



-DW

What I would say is that if a person is being told they will learn BBT, or any other art, they should be learning that art, and not an poor imitation of another martial art. I keep seeing stuff where supposedly traditional schools in BBT, Genbukan, kung fu, JJJ, karate, TKD end up doing a third rate approximation of kickboxing or BJJ.

 

[Seattletcj]

Rook,

Thats a valid concern IMO.

I think the point Daniel is getting at though is that most often Bujinkan is advertised/described as being a comprehensive battlefield fighting art, used for real combat.

Meanwhile, actual performance in that context is not a concern.

 

[Rook]

Rook,

Thats a valid concern IMO.

I think the point Daniel is getting at though is that most often Bujinkan is advertised/described as being a comprehensive battlefield fighting art, used for real combat.

Meanwhile, actual performance in that context is not a concern.

Thats true.

 

[Don Roley]

You mean the shihan today have the same habits they had when they were using randori back with Hatsumi Sensei in the 60/70s?

Or is it possible to learn from the sparring and then readjust your normal training accordingly?

Oh wait -- that is right -- they had PERFECT TAIJUTSU back then. Or else they couldn't spar - right? And they have done what for the past 40 yrs???

-DW

Well, I take it to mean that they had their basics down to an extent that most of us still do not have. Seriously, the amount of people that have their knees in the right angle and use them to full extent is not one in a hundred based on my observations. You take a look at some of the people working out with Hatsumi and most of them do not even seem to be trying to copy what Hatsumi does.

So the old shihan had these little things in place and did limited sparring/randori. And because they knew what the basics were, they burned those habits into them deeper. Or their bad habits came out and were corrected.

But when the gaijin students did it back in their home country they were not even aware of what was right and what was wrong. (And most people still seem unaware of the full extent of that.) And so they made small mistakes during sparring, were not caught as they would have under Hatsumi's eyes, and burned those bad habits into them.

 

[Don Roley]

I'm not talking to you anymore, you deny what's right in front of you. That is your comment I cut and paisted. I cannot believe you will not admit to this. You bring out the worst of me so I don't want to talk to you anymore. I want to get back on topic.

Where did you cut and paste it from? Because if it was from your rep box, it was not from me. I have never given you rep.

I think that in the future if you want to get back on a topic, then you do not talk about anything other than the topic. Otherwise it sounds like you are trying to get in the last accusation/ word.

Who was your teacher? Some people have already stated that they believe you were never a Bujinkan student, but maybe connected with one of the fake groups and your presence here is just to cause problems for the Bujinkan. Some of us are expecting to see you announce in a few weeks time how you found "real, effective" ninjutsu with the Dux ryu group in SoCal or another group like that.

 

[Don Roley]

Meanwhile, actual performance in that context is not a concern.

There have been several people I know of that credit Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu for saving their lives. Considering just how few groups have standards that would pass complete muster in Japan, that is amazing.

Of course, since the older practicioners are quite capable in what they do, it seems logical to me to see what they are doing and try to follow their example instead of striking out on our own.

 

[Seattletcj]

There have been several people I know of that credit Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu for saving their lives.

I also know one person who says his budo taijutsu helped him in Iraq. I dont doubt him. But....I have also heard stories of people who credit their taekwondo skills for saving their lives.

Of course, since the older practicioners are quite capable in what they do, it seems logical to me to see what they are doing and try to follow their example instead of striking out on our own.

ok....
Yes, they are very good at what they do.....but is what they "do" the goal?
Defining what they do exactly, is important.


No clips yet?

:jediduel:

 

[Don Roley]

ok....
Yes, they are very good at what they do.....but is what they "do" the goal?
Defining what they do exactly, is important.

In other words, are they the end result and we should be looking at how they got there rather than what they are doing now? Seems a valid point.

I know that Hatsumi's classes are geared for advanced students, even thought it seems that few people bother with the basics before showing up. But I have been dealing with a few shihan here and they ahve been giving me advice and instruction on what the work for at the basic level. It really is a great learning experience and I advise everyone to spend more time with the shihans rather than only go to class with Hatsumi.

Some of the things they say they did in the early days, as well as the reasons why they did them and why they don't do them are very informative.

 

[Seattletcj]

In other words, are they the end result and we should be looking at how they got there rather than what they are doing now? Seems a valid point.

Well...not what I was getting at. But ya, that too.

Probably an unintentional straw man on your part due to my bad wording.
I'll try it again.

So, you said that the older practitioners are quite capable at what they do, and that it would be logical to follow their example in order to mimic what they are doing.

I also believe that they are very capable at what they do.
I asked: what is it they do, exactly? Is what they do the goal?

This is going to be tricky, because what they "do" is very specific IMO.
Is it my overall goal to look like the senior practitioners, and move like the senior practitioners in that specific environment? No.

 

[Ronnin]

What I would say is that if a person is being told they will learn BBT, or any other art, they should be learning that art, and not an poor imitation of another martial art. I keep seeing stuff where supposedly traditional schools in BBT, Genbukan, kung fu, JJJ, karate, TKD end up doing a third rate approximation of kickboxing or BJJ.

I think this is because people begin to panic in the heat of it all, and then resort back to the basic school ground ryu. I f people put more trust in thier technique ( some will say trust will come from a randori type training ) and stick to thier technique then they wouldn't resort back to school ground ryu. I think it all comes down to trust and the lack there of.

 

[Rook]

I think this is because people begin to panic in the heat of it all, and then resort back to the basic school ground ryu. I f people put more trust in thier technique ( some will say trust will come from a randori type training ) and stick to their technique then they wouldn't resort back to school ground ryu. I think it all comes down to trust and the lack there of.

I agree. Thats what the term "personal pressure testing" means - that you see whether or not you personally can maintain your structure, technique, focus and strategy under pressure. If it doesn't then you can look at what to practice accordingly. Alot of people either flip out and start throwing wild haymakers until they get picked apart or start cowering in a cramped posture - and its alot better that this happens 100 times in the dojo until you get used to being hit and thrown and countered against and still maintain your composure than to have the crap hit the fan in the street.

 

[Ronnin]

I agree. Thats what the term "personal pressure testing" means - that you see whether or not you personally can maintain your structure, technique, focus and strategy under pressure. If it doesn't then you can look at what to practice accordingly. Alot of people either flip out and start throwing wild haymakers until they get picked apart or start cowering in a cramped posture - and its alot better that this happens 100 times in the dojo until you get used to being hit and thrown and countered against and still maintain your composure than to have the crap hit the fan in the street.

I agree 100%

 

[exile]

I also know one person who says his budo taijutsu helped him in Iraq. I dont doubt him. But....I have also heard stories of people who credit their taekwondo skills for saving their lives.

I'm not surprised. The South Korean military trains TKD as their H2H backup for last-resort combat when weapons are unavailable—effectively enough that in the Vietnam war, the Viet Cong military command issued a directive to VC infantry to avoid contact with ROK infantry specifically because of the latter's combat training in TKD. I've come to believe that any martial art that has stood the test of time has done so because, and only because, it has given its practitioners a marked survival advantage.

But it has to be remembered that these troops aren't trained to score points under Olympic ring competition rules and conditions. The Japanse special tactical police who undergo `Police' training in Shotokan aren't either. Both groups are trained to cripple and, if necessary, kill their opponents, and the form of that training reflects this grim but necessary objective. I cannot imagine that effective training in Ninjutsu—or in any of the other innumerable CMAs, KMAs, JMAs or Indonesian/Oceanic MAs—is any different in this respect. What it comes down to is how you train. I do believe that for any of the TMAs, if your training objective is the partial or total destruction of your opponent, your art gives you more than enough resources to achieve that goal. You just have to be willing to train for that, and I think a lot of people probably aren't willing to do that. If you are, more power to you!

 

[Don Roley]

Is it my overall goal to look like the senior practitioners, and move like the senior practitioners in that specific environment? No.

Then I do not understand why you study Bujinkan and claim to teach it.

Honestly. I think it is only natural that we try to be like the guys at the top of our art.

And Ronnin, despite your recent PM to me where you called me, among other things, a mental midget, I am repeating my question on your claims of training in the Bujinkan. I was not the one to first raise that possibility, but the more you post and the way you evade and react, the more I am coming to their way of thinking.