Realistic Training !!

[Cryozombie]

Instead of stopping and thinking and using the art the way it was applied back when it was useful -- they rely on anedotal tales to explain why they think it should work.

I'm not going to disagree with this, but... The same can be said of Sparring as well, people think Sparring = Real Fighting and don't understand why they get their asses handed to them the first real fight they get into.

I think this becomes Especially true when sparring becomes a silly game of grabass where you are more concerned about laying hands on the other guy than maintaining proper timing, distance and balance, and you do what I see 90% of the time I have seen sparring matches and tournament "fights"... some dude on his tiptoes on one foot, leaning way forward with his head and extending his arm so he can get the hit...no power, no form, but its a "point". And in my opinion, one of the reasons this happens, is because a lot of Martial Artists dont have a clue how to spar, having learned it from "Sport arts" who do "point sparring. I'd bet It wasn't common in old systems... I'd venture to guess that most schools didn't spar... they went out and FOUGHT. I think there are subtle differences that a large majority of people who teach sparring, or who spar, just don't get. (and I am not referring to anyone here specifically, I would hope we have our heads together more than some yahoo teacher from a stripmall blackbelt factory)

 

[Rook]

I'm not going to disagree with this, but... The same can be said of Sparring as well, people think Sparring = Real Fighting and don't understand why they get their asses handed to them the first real fight they get into.

I think this becomes Especially true when sparring becomes a silly game of grabass where you are more concerned about laying hands on the other guy than maintaining proper timing, distance and balance, and you do what I see 90% of the time I have seen sparring matches and tournament "fights"... some dude on his tiptoes on one foot, leaning way forward with his head and extending his arm so he can get the hit...no power, no form, but its a "point". And in my opinion, one of the reasons this happens, is because a lot of Martial Artists dont have a clue how to spar, having learned it from "Sport arts" who do "point sparring. I'd bet It wasn't common in old systems... I'd venture to guess that most schools didn't spar... they went out and FOUGHT. I think there are subtle differences that a large majority of people who teach sparring, or who spar, just don't get. (and I am not referring to anyone here specifically, I would hope we have our heads together more than some yahoo teacher from a stripmall blackbelt factory)

You do realize that point-fighting is not the type of sparring most people refer to when they say sparring? Points fighting isn't practiced by the people who are discussing your lack of sparring. People who talk about pressure testing and so forth (myself included) never use point fighting as a method of development, training or testing.

 

[Seattletcj]

Man, this is hilarious 1 step forward 2 steps back.
It is a fun debate and hopefully someone out there is learning something....otherwise, what a massive waste of time


Yet another example of 2 ego maniacs going at it. Notice how all technique and form go out the window.....

A pretty good clip of ninpo freeform practice...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52BZZ9x4l14&mode=related&search=

 

[Don Roley]

You do realize that point-fighting is not the type of sparring most people refer to when they say sparring?

You may note that he prefaced that comment with the term, "I think this becomes Especially true"?

Point sparring is an extreme version of the principles he is talking about and one that we can all see and agree with. There are others that are less visible but no less valid IMO. And that is a very real fear for me.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

A pretty good clip of ninpo freeform practice..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52BZZ9x4l14&mode=related&search=

I noticed the spelling "budo ninjutsu". Those guys aren't associated with the Bujinkan in Israel anymore if memory serves me correctly. Also, didn't look very "free" to me...a lot of the attacks defended against were pretty lousy.

 

[Rook]

You may note that he prefaced that comment with the term, "I think this becomes Especially true"?

Point sparring is an extreme version of the principles he is talking about and one that we can all see and agree with. There are others that are less visible but no less valid IMO. And that is a very real fear for me.

I wasn't objecting to your post but rather to cryozombie's where he seemed to have conflated points fighting with sparring in general. Points fighting is rather different that full contact or even low contact sparring.

 

[Ronnin]

Just so you do not think that Don is picking on you, Ronnin, I agree with his reprimand. The idea of "surviving" is *NOT* the way that you used it when you were quoting Takamatsu-sensei.

-ben

well it depends how look at winning weather it be survival, or just.........regular.
You may be able to fight in a controlled (sport) environment with the mentality of, and fight that of a survival situation, you just don't have to break the arm while performing say Oni Kudaki, which you would do in a survival situation, you can take it to the point to where your opponent knows he is defeated and you win. But that's not to say you didn't fight with the "survival" mindset, and aggression. Of course now I am not speaking of randori done in a dojo, but more of a full contact type competition. I am not say what I am saying in this post is correct as I have never entered a comp. But I don't see why it can't happen.

 

[Ronnin]

Maybe you should go back and read this entire thread before you say the whole thing is about Randori, man.

...........sigh. for the past few pages it's been on randori, and "winning".

 

[Ronnin]

To me as well.

Taking a look at the stories about Takamatsu in his youth, you don't see many stories that deal with using matches as a learning experience. If we are talking about using randori to better our taijutsu, then you really do not find many cases from the stories about Takamatsu. We also have Nagato's experience as a competitor and his comments looking back on it.

Takamatu's stories about how he proved his abilities in the eyes of others are great, but they do not seem relevant to the conversation at hand.

I don't think randori betters taijutsu, i think it betters the minds reactability. it also does no good if your taijutsu was excellent, but you cant apply it in a real situation because your mind panics and none of the movements come out. also consider this : ALL yes ALL military for all countries go to the shooting range and classrooms to learn thier tactics. This is equivalent to our dojo training. then ALL countries go to war games. Where the good guys try to "win" against the bad guys and vice versa. win at any means. there's is NO WAY any soldier would be worth thier salt in a real firefight, unless he's been through this training.

 

[Ronnin]

I'm not going to disagree with this, but... The same can be said of Sparring as well, people think Sparring = Real Fighting and don't understand why they get their asses handed to them the first real fight they get into.

I think this becomes Especially true when sparring becomes a silly game of grabass where you are more concerned about laying hands on the other guy than maintaining proper timing, distance and balance, and you do what I see 90% of the time I have seen sparring matches and tournament "fights"... some dude on his tiptoes on one foot, leaning way forward with his head and extending his arm so he can get the hit...no power, no form, but its a "point". And in my opinion, one of the reasons this happens, is because a lot of Martial Artists dont have a clue how to spar, having learned it from "Sport arts" who do "point sparring. I'd bet It wasn't common in old systems... I'd venture to guess that most schools didn't spar... they went out and FOUGHT. I think there are subtle differences that a large majority of people who teach sparring, or who spar, just don't get. (and I am not referring to anyone here specifically, I would hope we have our heads together more than some yahoo teacher from a stripmall blackbelt factory)

I don't think sparring = real fighting, BUT it is the closest we can come to it.

 

[Don Roley]

I don't think sparring = real fighting, BUT it is the closest we can come to it.

No, it is not. Do a web search of Peytonn Quinn. Much closer to the reality of combat IMO. You may also look into some of the ways kata training is sometimes done in Japan. That is, if you are willing to look deep into the matter and put off making decisions until you have completly mastered the subject matter.

 

[Don Roley]

I don't think randori betters taijutsu, i think it betters the minds reactability.

I happen to feel differently. But of course, the question is- is it the only way of training the mind to react to unexpected events? As I said, look up Quinn, etc.

 

[Don Roley]

I wasn't objecting to your post but rather to cryozombie's where he seemed to have conflated points fighting with sparring in general. Points fighting is rather different that full contact or even low contact sparring.

And all sparring is different from a real fight. And thus they all share the same possible problems that cryofzombie brought up. Maybe in ways that we are not aware of. Just because we do not see certain problems due to our inexperience, does not mean they are not there.

 

[Seattletcj]

I noticed the spelling "budo ninjutsu". Those guys aren't associated with the Bujinkan in Israel anymore if memory serves me correctly.

If thats is what is important to you then cool. I have no idea really.

Also, didn't look very "free" to me...a lot of the attacks defended against were pretty lousy.

Well it did not seem scripted so thats what made it freeform in my crazy mind.

As far as the attacks being lousy.....
Can you point to an example of what you think is a good attack ? There are tons of Bujinkan videos out there, I'm sure you can find lots of good examples.

 

[Don Roley]

I noticed the spelling "budo ninjutsu". Those guys aren't associated with the Bujinkan in Israel anymore if memory serves me correctly. Also, didn't look very "free" to me...a lot of the attacks defended against were pretty lousy.

That is kind of how I felt about it as well.

Is this a tape of people doing some sort of test? If so, then they will be judged if they pass a certain standard. Or they may be critiqued on mistakes they made and work on those problems later.

But this is not the standard of taijutsu as I know it. As I have said, I do not feel that I have mastered the standards of the Bujinkan. But I think I have been shown it and am on my way to it while others seem unaware of the standards and wander off on their own path.

If this type of training is frequent, then that means that the habits and skills they have right now are the ones they are burning into themselves for all eternity. And after looking at the standards of the Japanese I train with, I can't say that the habits I saw on that tape are the ones I want to stop at. I am not saying that they are bad, just that their understanding is not where I want to end up in my training.

 

[exile]

No, it is not. Do a web search of Peytonn Quinn. Much closer to the reality of combat IMO. You may also look into some of the ways kata training is sometimes done in Japan.

I think this is a very important and constantly overlooked point—point fighting, competitive sparring, may help you with making quick decisions on the fly, but given the rules of point sparring or other kinds of sport MA contests, those decisions will very likely be all wrong on the street, because of the way the scoring system of sport MAs determines rewards and penalties. Look at Olympic style TKD—try to get in as many kicks to the head as you can because it's double points? Keep your hands down?? Most definitely, the deep reflexes that sport TKD develops are going to be absolutely horrible responses in a bar fight or an unprovoked, unlooked-for street attack.

The work of Peyton Quinn, Geoff Thompson and Iain Abernethy (guys who I've chosen for my ideal bodyguards on that thread, so I've put my money where my mouth is!) shows that there is another way: train for the street, not by conventionized sparring, but by all-in fight simulation with minimal protection—touches to the eye count for eye gouges, a minimal impact sick kick to groin or side of the knee counts for a scrotum- or joint-bursting version of the real thing; but apart from that, it's street rules only.

There is a lot of work along these lines. For example, instead of the kind of conventional attack/defense sequences that the street-useless `official' bunkai for TKD forms advocate, and which a lot of one-step training is based on, why not first make a careful study of the most common kinds of real street attacks—sucker punches, head butts, grabs from behind with the attacker's mates holding while he moves into position to smash your face in, etc—and then working out counters to those? Bill Burgar's book, Five Years, One Kata, actually does this, with photos. He's done a fair bit of research on the most common assault patterns—I believe he's relied heavily on Geoff Thompson's work here—and shows, based on his intensive five-year study and practice of a single kata how well traditional kata supply sequences of fighting techs specifically designed to counter just these attacks, typically before the attacher gets a chance to launch them. Not surprising, when you consider that the early Okinawan, Japanese and Korean MA masters were training themselves, and their students, to know how to keep themselves in one piece in a world which was far harsher than the one most of us in the West have to live in.

I'd like to see more attention given to this approach to structured combat training (a description that I think gives a much better feel for what's involved than the word `sparring' or its Japanese equivalent `kumite' and so on). The one problem with it is that, from what I've seen and the little I've done of it, it is very scary and unpleasant. But the whole point is, it sort of has to be in order to be effective...

 

[Cryozombie]

You do realize that point-fighting is not the type of sparring most people refer to when they say sparring?

You may note that I prefaced that comment with the term, "I think this becomes Especially true" and ended it with "and I am not referring to anyone here specifically, I would hope we have our heads together more than some yahoo teacher from a stripmall blackbelt factory"?

 

[Cryozombie]

I wasn't objecting to your post but rather to cryozombie's where he seemed to have conflated points fighting with sparring in general. Points fighting is rather different that full contact or even low contact sparring.

And, Rook, I have seen plenty of those Stripmall schools do "Sparring" exactly the way I described... just because it didn't fit your definition of sparring didn't stop the school from calling it sparring or teaching it in their sparring class, buddy. Which was exactly my point... the mistaken notion that this type of "sparring" was not equal to "real fighting"

 

[Ronnin]

This is for Don who said in my rep. box I misquoted Takamatsu on purpose !!!!!!!

"The essence of all martial arts and military strategies is self-protection and the prevention of danger. Ninjutsu epitomizes the fullest concept of self-protection of not only the physical body, but the mind and spirit as well. The way of the ninja is the way of enduring, surviving, and prevailing over all that would destroy one. More than merely delivering strikes and slashes, and deeper in significance than the simple out-witting of an enemy; Ninjutsu is the way of attaining that which we need while making the world a better place. The skill of the ninja is the art of winning.”

-Toshitsugu Takamatsu

Yet another

The "Ninjutsu Hiketsu Bun" (essay on essence of ninjutsu) written by Takamatsu Sensei


The essence of all Martial Arts and military strategies is self protection and the prevention ofdanger. Ninjutsu epitomizes the fullest concept of self-protection through martial training in thatthe Ninja art deals with the protection of not only the physical body, but the mind and spirit aswell. The way of the Ninja is the way of enduring, surviving, and prevailing over all that woulddestroy one. More than merely delivering strikes and slashes, and deeper in significanse than thesimple out-witting of an enemy; Ninjutsu is the way off attaining that which we need whilemaking the world a better place. The skill of the Ninja is the art of winning. In the beginning study of any combative art, propermotivation is crucial. Without the proper frame of mind, continous exposure to fightingtechniques can lead to ruin instead of self-development. But this fact is not different from anyother beneficial practice in life carried to extremes. Medical science is dedicated to the betterment of health and the relief of suffering, and yet themisuse of drugs and the exultation of the physician's skills can lead people to a state where anindividual's health is no longer within his or her personal control. A nutritious well-balanceddiet works to keep a person alive, vital, and healthy, but grossly over-eating, over-drinking, ortaking in too many chemicals is a sure way to poison the body. Governments are established to oversee the harmonious inter-working of all parts of society,but when the rulers become greedy, hungry for power, or lacking in wisdom, the country issubjected to needless wars, disorder or civil and economic chaos. A religion, when based on faith developed through experience, a broad and questing mind, andunflagging pursuit of universal understanding, is of inspiration and comfort to people. Once areligion loses its original focus, however, it becomes a deadly thing with which to deceive,control and tax the people through the manipulation of their beliefs and fears. It is the same with the martial arts. The skills of self-protection, which should provide a feelingof inner peace and security for the martial artist, so often develop without a balance in thepersonality and lead the lesser martial artist into warped realms of unceasing conflict andcompetition which eventually consume him. If an expert in the fighting arts sincerely pursues the essence of NINJUTSU, devoid of theinfluence of the ego's desires, the student will progressively come to realize the ultimate secretfor becoming invincible - the attainment of the "mind and eyes of god". The combatant who wouldwin must be in harmony with the scheme of totality, and must be guided by an intuitiveknowledge of the playing out of fate. In tune with the providence of heaven and the impartial justice of nature, and following a clearand pure heart full of trust in the inevitable, the NINJA captures the insight that will guide himsuccessfully into battle when he must conquer and conceal himself protectively from hostilitywhen he must acquiesce. The vast universe, beautiful in its coldly impersonal totality, contains all that we call good orbad, all the answers for all the paradoxes we see around us. By opening his eyes and his mind,the Ninja can responsively follow the subtle seasons and reasons of heaven, changing just aschange is necessary, adapting always, so that in the end there is no such thing as a surprise forthe Ninja.

I can bring more if you like. I said the wrong book. You need to be a man of honor and take off that ding in my rep box !!!!!!!!!!

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

This is for Don who said in my rep. box I misquoted Takamatsu on purpose !!!!!!!

"The essence of all martial arts and military strategies is self-protection and the prevention of danger. Ninjutsu epitomizes the fullest concept of self-protection of not only the physical body, but the mind and spirit as well. The way of the ninja is the way of enduring, surviving, and prevailing over all that would destroy one. More than merely delivering strikes and slashes, and deeper in significance than the simple out-witting of an enemy; Ninjutsu is the way of attaining that which we need while making the world a better place. The skill of the ninja is the art of winning.”

-Toshitsugu Takamatsu

Yet another

The "Ninjutsu Hiketsu Bun" (essay on essence of ninjutsu) written by Takamatsu Sensei


The essence of all Martial Arts and military strategies is self protection and the prevention ofdanger. Ninjutsu epitomizes the fullest concept of self-protection through martial training in thatthe Ninja art deals with the protection of not only the physical body, but the mind and spirit aswell. The way of the Ninja is the way of enduring, surviving, and prevailing over all that woulddestroy one. More than merely delivering strikes and slashes, and deeper in significanse than thesimple out-witting of an enemy; Ninjutsu is the way off attaining that which we need whilemaking the world a better place. The skill of the Ninja is the art of winning. In the beginning study of any combative art, propermotivation is crucial. Without the proper frame of mind, continous exposure to fightingtechniques can lead to ruin instead of self-development. But this fact is not different from anyother beneficial practice in life carried to extremes. Medical science is dedicated to the betterment of health and the relief of suffering, and yet themisuse of drugs and the exultation of the physician's skills can lead people to a state where anindividual's health is no longer within his or her personal control. A nutritious well-balanceddiet works to keep a person alive, vital, and healthy, but grossly over-eating, over-drinking, ortaking in too many chemicals is a sure way to poison the body. Governments are established to oversee the harmonious inter-working of all parts of society,but when the rulers become greedy, hungry for power, or lacking in wisdom, the country issubjected to needless wars, disorder or civil and economic chaos. A religion, when based on faith developed through experience, a broad and questing mind, andunflagging pursuit of universal understanding, is of inspiration and comfort to people. Once areligion loses its original focus, however, it becomes a deadly thing with which to deceive,control and tax the people through the manipulation of their beliefs and fears. It is the same with the martial arts. The skills of self-protection, which should provide a feelingof inner peace and security for the martial artist, so often develop without a balance in thepersonality and lead the lesser martial artist into warped realms of unceasing conflict andcompetition which eventually consume him. If an expert in the fighting arts sincerely pursues the essence of NINJUTSU, devoid of theinfluence of the ego's desires, the student will progressively come to realize the ultimate secretfor becoming invincible - the attainment of the "mind and eyes of god". The combatant who wouldwin must be in harmony with the scheme of totality, and must be guided by an intuitiveknowledge of the playing out of fate. In tune with the providence of heaven and the impartial justice of nature, and following a clearand pure heart full of trust in the inevitable, the NINJA captures the insight that will guide himsuccessfully into battle when he must conquer and conceal himself protectively from hostilitywhen he must acquiesce. The vast universe, beautiful in its coldly impersonal totality, contains all that we call good orbad, all the answers for all the paradoxes we see around us. By opening his eyes and his mind,the Ninja can responsively follow the subtle seasons and reasons of heaven, changing just aschange is necessary, adapting always, so that in the end there is no such thing as a surprise forthe Ninja.

I can bring more if you like. I said the wrong book. You need to be a man of honor and take off that ding in my rep box !!!!!!!!!!

I do hope you're aware of the fact that History and Tradition was ghostwritten by Stephen Hayes, a man not particularly known for his understanding of the Japanese language? :angel: