Realistic Training !!

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Ronnin

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Okay, try not to jump down my throat everyone, but the only concern I have in training (I can only speak for Bujinkan) is I don't think we do enough "real" training. When I say real I mean the uke gives you a left jab, right cross, then left hook. And I don't mean steping with the left foot when he's punching with the left hand either. It's very easy for us to get into position when the uke steps in when he punches, we just hit that 45 degree angle steping outside the punch, moving in, then walla, you're almost totally behind the uke free to do what you will with him. BUT, when the uke dosen't step with his foot, as seen in a boxers punch we have to change our movement almost completely. Another example is: uke punhes (regular training punch) and we step back and "catch" (not really catch but you know what I mean) then maybe put on Take Ori. Do we forget how fast a real punch is coming, and then it doesn't just sit out there waiting for us to grab it, it retracts just as fast. And that is just with your basic street guy, now throw in a trained guy in say Wing Chun. Those are some seriously fast hands. I'm not sure anyone is fast enough to grab that. Now I know, I'm not a "newbie" I know there are thing we can do to "ensure" his punch be slowed down. I know some Dojo's do train with this in mind. Mine didn't, and many people I've spoken to, theirs didn't either. So I'm not speaking to ALL, so please refrain from coming on say " well mine does, and every dojo I know does to, your's may just suck". And don't tell me to go to To Shin Do either. I know alot of what we do is because it's traditional, and that's good, that's one of the main reasons why I love this art, the traditions. I just think we should look at not changing the art, please that's not what I'm saying but begin to put a more "todays" understanding in many of the techniques. What do you think. (please forgive any mispelled words, my spell check is broken) Please be reminded I am meaning no disrespect here, thus I should not receive any. Thank you.
 

Don Roley

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I know alot of what we do is because it's traditional,

Nope.

We do things that have been passed down to us because they have a reason. Just because we do not understand those reasons and due to our ignorance think there are better ways, does not mean that there is no meaning to them.

I used to think a lot of things about the way things are done in the Bujinkan and martial arts training. Over the years I have come to realize that much of what I thought was just tradition or some other reason actually was a very, very vital part of the process of learning how to defend yourself in a lethal confrontation.

If you do not see the use for some of the stuff you do in training, one very real possibility is that you need to look deeper and gain some more understanding.
 
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Ronnin

Ronnin

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I am not saying I don't understand why we do the things we do, and I also realize that we do a lot of things where in time the truth behind it reveals itself, I have infact written many essays on the subject of the hidden purpose, but the fact is for example when in the Kukishinded Ryu using the Bo and you performe an Age Uchi ( the groin strike ) well that to me seems pretty darn traditional, unless there's many people walking around in samurai armor. That's just one example there's many others. I also know that it's up to the practitioner to develop his "own way" so to speak. Hatsumi sensei says " I show you the technique itself, you find how to get there". I just think...........well maybe I'm speaking on the importance of Hanka.
 

Don Roley

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I am not saying I don't understand why we do the things we do, and I also realize that we do a lot of things where in time the truth behind it reveals itself, I have infact written many essays on the subject of the hidden purpose, but the fact is for example when in the Kukishinded Ryu using the Bo and you performe an Age Uchi ( the groin strike ) well that to me seems pretty darn traditional, unless there's many people walking around in samurai armor.

It seems indeed that you do not understand the reasons behind what we do if you think that age uchi can only be used against someone in armor.
 
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Ronnin

Ronnin

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I'm not saying "only" be used. But in a real situation, it just happens to fast. And when we train it, it comes from the battlefield, and was developed to combat the more heavily armored thus slower moving samurai. Now some of us can take that technique and figure out a way to use it maybe. But the problem I think is this type of senario doesn't usually come around in the dojo. At least in mine. I'm mainly talking about the mindset. I know the the techniques can be swiched to real life, or at least some of them can, but what's the good if that mindset is never taught.
 

Don Roley

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I'm not saying "only" be used. But in a real situation, it just happens to fast.

Again, I caution you. Just because you do not understand something or are unable to pull something off, do not assume there is no reason or that others are also unable to pull it off.
 

stephen

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(I can only speak for Bujinkan) is I don't think we do enough "real" training.



First of all, you CANNOT speak for "The Bujinkan".

You CAN speak for your dojo.

Maybe you should speak to your Shidoshi about this, or find a new teacher.

I also see that you've looked at other dojo and you're still not satisfied. Drive further.
 

KageMusha

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I always felt, (since this is what I was told), is that the kata teaches you an idea. If you rely on a technique and you screw it up, you are screwed, but if you are following an idea, the techniques can change to adapt.
 

Bujingodai

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I agree, I think there is too much thought being put into the technique itself not the movement your body is attempting to understand.
Got to go with Don on this one.
 

Brian R. VanCise

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Shihan Michael Asuncion talked on this yesterday and since I do not want to speak for him I will relate my own opinion.

The kata's are designed to teach you movement and principles. Once you understand these principles and the movement behind them then you can apply then in multiple ways against various forms of attacks. Try to be aware of the spacing as that may also dictate what your opponent does. If you manipulate the "kukan" then you may be able to draw your opponent into something that might be beneficial to you.

One point though is that do not try to force a technique to work but let it happen naturally. Flow into what you can do in the moment!
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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When I say real I mean the uke gives you a left jab, right cross, then left hook.

Most people who really want to knock your teeth down your throat won't punch like that either.

Another example is: uke punhes (regular training punch) and we step back and "catch" (not really catch but you know what I mean) then maybe put on Take Ori.

Basic Bujinkan rule a lot of people are never told, but IMO should be - you can't think in terms of "putting on" techniques. It's never going to work.

Do we forget how fast a real punch is coming, and then it doesn't just sit out there waiting for us to grab it, it retracts just as fast. And that is just with your basic street guy, now throw in a trained guy in say Wing Chun. Those are some seriously fast hands.

We're not supposed to grab. We're supposed to bring it to us.
For a series of chain punches the opponent needs a certain distance, you can be outside or inside of that distance.
 

Grey Eyed Bandit

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And when we train it, it comes from the battlefield, and was developed to combat the more heavily armored thus slower moving samurai.

Depends on the school. :ultracool

I'm mainly talking about the mindset. I know the the techniques can be swiched to real life, or at least some of them can, but what's the good if that mindset is never taught.

I've never been "taught" that mindset per se, it has more been conceptualized into the situation. For instance by training with people I didn't get along very well with or who had some control issues. Not only that of course, but there are pitfalls to be found within being "satisfied" with your training. I believe that a big part of getting good at Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu is enduring stuff that would make a lot of people quit.
 

Alan Witty

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I see this come up over and over again in posts here and elsewhere. I think that the issue is not with the material but how it is taught. Also, the mind set of the instructor. What is the instructor trying to convey? The ones I have trained with drill the Waza or concept and than rapidly move to application in a variety of settings and against a variety of attacks at varying speed.

They also looked at the concepts in light of various other fighting arts that they had studied or if need be reviewed for that series of lessons. I do the same. On Tuesday, driven a bit by the knife thread on Kutaki, we spent a whole class looking at the practical vs. the Dojo. On Thursday we spent the whole night looking at escapes from a variety of grabs and attempts at takedowns.

Again, the mindset of the teacher sets the class. If you feel you need more "realistic” than ask your teacher for a henka or variation on whatever you want to focus on. A good instructor should be able to address it or be honest enough to say "Had not thought that through but I will and address it next class."
 
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Ronnin

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Again, I caution you. Just because you do not understand something or are unable to pull something off, do not assume there is no reason or that others are also unable to pull it off.

Again, I didn't say I don't understand, I'm saying (at least in my dojo, and the others on my area) that I don't think there's enough emphasis on the "street" mindset. And yes this is one of the reasons why I am looking into other areas.
 

KageMusha

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Again, I didn't say I don't understand, I'm saying (at least in my dojo, and the others on my area) that I don't think there's enough emphasis on the "street" mindset. And yes this is one of the reasons why I am looking into other areas.

You did state in your first post that you did not want anyone to answer with "find a new instructor" or "but this is how we do it at our dojo". Compaired to what you just said, what do you really want someone to tell you?
 

KageMusha

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I didn't mean to to make you mad, but what is your question? Are you asking if the Bujinkan is lacking focus on "real" training or your dojo? Maybe we just don't understand your question.

I know our group is 100% real training once you understand the idea of the kata. But you told us not to tell you that.
 
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Ronnin

Ronnin

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I'm not new at training, I know each dojo trains different, that's why I stated more than once I was refering to my dojo, and the ones in my area based on those I've spoken to. I was stating my general frustration and was wondering if other peaople had this problem.
 

stephen

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I'm not new at training, I know each dojo trains different, that's why I stated more than once I was refering to my dojo, and the ones in my area based on those I've spoken to. I was stating my general frustration and was wondering if other peaople had this problem.


Oh, I see, in that case:

No.
 
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