Realistic Training !!

[Ronnin]

I do hope you're aware of the fact that History and Tradition was ghostwritten by Stephen Hayes, a man not particularly known for his understanding of the Japanese language? :angel:

none of this is from History and Tradition.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

That's where the translation you're quoting first appeared.

 

[Ronnin]

That's where the translation you're quoting first appeared.

oh, i didn't get it from there, but i doubt Hatsumi would let SKH publish something Misquoting Takamatsu.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

Bummer.

 

[Don Roley]

This is for Don who said in my rep. box I misquoted Takamatsu on purpose !!!!!!!

Wrong.

And you seem to be missing a lot of the points going on. You should work on that. I would not say that you are purposefully misquoting Takamatsu- rather you are reading what you want into what he says.

While you are at it, as I have said, you need to take a more appropriate attitude for someone of your limited experience and knowledge. Many people are willing to help those that know less than them. But they are less eager to do so when they seem intent (as you are) at being thought right rather than getting the right answer.

For example, if you had known more about History and Tradition, you might not have said what you did about Hatsumi letting Hayes publish a misquote. It is all common knowledge here. If you take a few days to go back over old threads you might understand things like this.

 

[Cryozombie]

Geez Don, come on this thread is about randori, He's not talking about points or takamatsu:

Were are talking about randori.

:wink2:

 

[Ronnin]

Wrong.

And you seem to be missing a lot of the points going on. You should work on that. I would not say that you are purposefully misquoting Takamatsu- rather you are reading what you want into what he says.

While you are at it, as I have said, you need to take a more appropriate attitude for someone of your limited experience and knowledge. Many people are willing to help those that know less than them. But they are less eager to do so when they seem intent (as you are) at being thought right rather than getting the right answer.

For example, if you had known more about History and Tradition, you might not have said what you did about Hatsumi letting Hayes publish a misquote. It is all common knowledge here. If you take a few days to go back over old threads you might understand things like this.

"Misquoting Takamatsu on purpose"
There it is, that's what you said. How should I have taken that?

 

[Don Roley]

"Misquoting Takamatsu on purpose"
There it is, that's what you said. How should I have taken that?

Because I didn't say it. I have never given you reputation.

Were you not listening the first time?

 

[Varg05R6]

At the risk of jumping in the deep end here I think a system that can't be tried can't be trusted.

In Muay Thai I learned techniques and movements and was then placed in the ring in a sparring situation to see how to apply them. And while I will argue that what happens in the ring isn't what happens in a real fight I learned valuable lessons in timing, distance & evasion which I would never (had never!) have learned from kata alone. I also learned (over time) how to take a hit. For those who haven't experienced a solid blow to the head all I can say is it can be debilitating. Stop you dead in your tracks sort of stuff.

The main thing I learned was to conquer the fear and adrenaline dump involved when someone is really trying to knock you out. My regular sparring partner was 108kg of muscle & had 10+ years of experience in Muay Thai. Since facing off against him (and being knocked out a time or two in hard sparring) I find it much easier to deal with the adrenaline dump of an intense conflict situaton. Indeed nobody who has shown aggression towards me has scared me nearly as much as he did! Initially...

While I have no experience (yet!) of Bujinkan I believe that someone who has trained in a high pressure situation where they have learned to deal with the very real fear of being hurt has an incalculable advantage over one who hasn't. I don't know if randori classes as this...?

I don't advocate hard & heavy training all the time but to understand self defence you must be put in a situation where you really feel that you must defend yourself to avoid being hurt.

Just my 2c, and with all respect to others who feel differently.

 

[Grey Eyed Bandit]

And while I will argue that what happens in the ring isn't what happens in a real fight I learned valuable lessons in timing, distance & evasion which I would never (had never!) have learned from kata alone.

Depends a little bit on how it's practiced. There's more to kata than just performing and repeating techniques, at least from a Bujinkan perspective.

The main thing I learned was to conquer the fear and adrenaline dump involved when someone is really trying to knock you out. My regular sparring partner was 108kg of muscle & had 10+ years of experience in Muay Thai. Since facing off against him (and being knocked out a time or two in hard sparring) I find it much easier to deal with the adrenaline dump of an intense conflict situaton.

Now imagine having to deal with the fear involved when you think you're supposed to be practicing kata in a calm, controlled manner, and he doesn't.

 

[exile]

Depends a little bit on how it's practiced. There's more to kata than just performing and repeating techniques, at least from a Bujinkan perspective.

Exactly!!

Burgar, in his book, makes the nice observation that people make a fundamental confusion about kata: they think that the ultimate goal of kata practice is training the performance rather than the application. And to practice the application, you first need to understand what it would make those movements useful in the kind of combat that the art was designed to prepare you for. Those `dance steps' that appear to besimultaneous rising and outward middle blocks followed by some utterly impractical trapping motion, which look totally useless unless your assailant does exactly the stylized choreographed steps that the `official' bunkai assume—maybe that's not what's intended at all! Much more realistic interpretations of what the kata is telling you to do in the event of a common street attack exist that assume no compliance at all on the attacker's part; everything you do forces his subsequent moves. Once you's worked out that combat application of the first two or three moves of the kata, that's what you practice—with a partner who is throwing since punch at you (it might be advisable to wear some protective gear once you decide to train like this).

What you're training is not the stylized kata-ballet, though performing that ballet correctly makes it clear to you just what the movement in the kata are supposed to be. But the movements aren't themselves the combat moves. You have to work those out, and once you do, that's what you practice, against a noncompliant partner who is willing to rough you up a bit if you're not responding accurately. Training kata from this angle is training for simple, effective combat moves at the close quarters where real fights (as vs. one-step sequences where the `combatants' start off eight or ten feet from each other ).

This kind of practice conforms I think to Don's point earlier about `winning'. You aren't training this way to gain points or even to kock your opponent over with an impressive spinning kick two feet off the ground. No one is keeping score, and it's not a contest, but rather simulation of a real, ugly fight. The closer that simulation is to the real thing, the more likely you'll survive such an encounter in reasonably good shape. That's what all traditional MAs were created to do, so far as I know, but you have to practice applying the techs they're making available to you under conditions as realistic as you can get.

And that's why, I suspect, people don't train that way. There's no glory, or fun in it, and you can get seriously hurt if you rush to do it at real-fight speeds before you're ready, or if your attention wanders, or... I suspect people like practicing kata performance, without going on to work out the apps, and like the kind of sparring that sport TKD and sport karate have become somewhat notorious for, because the kind of `sparring' for real fights I've described is... too intimidating and dangerous. MAs are tools for fighting; at some level, I've come to suspect, a lot of people who do MAs just don't like the idea that they may have to actuall fight, and fight a certain way, if danger comes to them. The adepts of the MAs of a couple of centuries ago probably didn't either; the difference is, for the most part, they had no choice—they didn't have police forces, or courts, or any of the whole legal/justice/enforcement system that we do, to keep them safe. Because we do, training is a luxury for most of us—but it was a necessity for them, and they trained accordingly. We can train the same way, but it's gonna hurt.

 

[bencole]

There is a reason why the uke keeps his arm out when he punches in the Bujinkan. It is important to not toss aside this lesson just because other people do not punch like that.

You can still have "alive training" and be the attacker with the arm out. Rather than tossing the practice aside because it seems "antiquated" or "not real," why not try to make it real through practice?

So we have had some interesting responses to my urging of students to not throw things away merely because they do not understand them yet....

To say that punching and leaving your arm out in space is a good habit really boggles my mind. Especially when you, or he has a weapon.

Would you think it wise to leave a punch out in the air like that against someone with that kind of experience...I shudder to think what my sensei would do to me in randori if I left a limb out for him to grasp *closes eyes and see sensei smiling with glee at the opportunity.*

I am honestly not surprised to see that these individuals have not said that they have actually taken the time to try to figure out why the extended arm is valuable.... Instead, they conjure up reasons why they shouldn't do it, without actually learning why they *SHOULD*....

I have even given you an "out" by allowing you to practice the "arm out" in "alive training." If you cannot understand that the arm extended shapes the space, allows you access to new opportunities and does not preclude you from downing your opponent with power and control, then you have not spent enough time with it.

All you guys seem to be interested in "testing yourself," but you seem afraid to try to test something inherent in the art that you are supposedly learning. (shake head)

Please, please, please use your brain when practicing this!!!

I am *NOT* saying that you should punch, leave your arm out, and stand there like a statue. I am saying, punch (without retracting) and notice how the space changes now that the hand is there, and how your own footwork around your arm changes the opportunities available to you and your opponent.

Rubber Tanto said that he would "shudder to think what his sensei would do to him if he left a limb out to grasp." Why? How does your footwork and use of your spine affect his opportunity to grasp that arm? It's kind hard to grasp the arm if the hand is being shoved into the throat, or is coming in with repeated thrusts, or the footwork *AROUND* the arm of the arm holder is taking new angles such that "grasping" becomes a source of unbalance for the grabber. Does moving the hand vertically or horizontally (naturally THROUGH the body's Taijutsu) alter these opportunities or risks?

There are a *LOT* of things that can and will go on with that "arm out."

If you cannot control someone with your arm out, then your Taijutsu is not as good as you think. You should take this as an indication that you need to look more closely at what the art is teaching BEFORE tossing it in the trash bin.

-ben

 

[bencole]

See if you can figure out how to do Age Uchi *WITHOUT* the bo (and *WITHOUT* your teacher)

So how did it go, Ronnin?

-ben

 

[Ronnin]

So how did it go, Ronnin?

-ben

I am not with my sensei anymore. I haven't been for a while. I've talking to some other dojos here.

 

[Ronnin]

Because I didn't say it. I have never given you reputation.

Were you not listening the first time?

I'm not talking to you anymore, you deny what's right in front of you. That is your comment I cut and paisted. I cannot believe you will not admit to this. You bring out the worst of me so I don't want to talk to you anymore. I want to get back on topic.

 

[bencole]

I am not with my sensei anymore. I haven't been for a while. I've talking to some other dojos here.

If you look back at my original request, I said that you should get together with a friend *WITHOUT* your teacher and try to figure out how to do Uchi Age *WITHOUT* a weapon.

I do not see why not being with your teacher anymore should hinder this exploration....

-ben

 

[bencole]

I'm not talking to you anymore, you deny what's right in front of you. That is your comment I cut and paisted. I cannot believe you will not admit to this.

How do you know if was Don, and not someone else, who docked your reputation?

-ben

 

[makoto-dojo]

Hello guys,

Ya know I understand that different people have different opinions on things. But I think we should be careful to still respect each other at least while on the board.

No reason to get heated. I think there have been many good points from everyone personally. Even if I don't agree with some of them, at least people are posting well thought out ideas. It makes for good reading and debate.

Just so everyone knows, As far as my involvement in this, I am only enjoy a good spirited debate. I hope I have not come off argumentative in any way. I truly do enjoy all of your thoughtful posts and respect your experience and opinions.

There are a few people who I have to reply to, but I cannot right now, I will try to get back tonight or tomorrow.

Keep going in good spirit!

Sincerely,

 

[Seattletcj]

As far as the attacks being lousy.....
Can you point to an example of what you think is a good attack ? There are tons of Bujinkan videos out there, I'm sure you can find lots of good examples.

I find it interesting that this simple challenge has been conviently ignored. Maybe it was just lost in the shuffle.
[SIZE=-1]Originally[/SIZE] Don and Nimravus commented that the attacks in this video were lousy

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=52BZZ...elated&search=

Can anyone find a good example of an uke attack ?
There are literally hundreds of BJK clips on youtube and googlevideo, many of them from high ranking members. Can you produce one clip ?

Not trying to start trouble. Just a simple request.

 

[Ronnin]

How do you know if was Don, and not someone else, who docked your reputation?

-ben

well when i clicked on it it takes me to his posts. If it is not him who said it I will owe him an apology, and i will give it.