Question on different stick fight styles

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Alan0354

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You may be interested in the sword breaker.

View attachment 27176

or the iron whip.

View attachment 27177
Ha ha, this looks worst( as like a weapon) than my Nylon cane in the original form before I made them more "friendly" looking:
United Cutlery.jpg


I had to cut off the hook to make it look friendly.
 

Argus

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This thread is all over the place, but I want to challenge some assumptions:

1. That a single stick lacks power
This is simply not true, but you may have this impression because of a few factors:

#1 - In Kali, lightweight rattan sticks are used as training implements for safety and durability. For actual combat and duels, much heavier hardwood sticks and swords were used. A fighting weight sword or stick will be on average 500-700 grams -- a good two to three times heavier, and way, way harder than your typical rattan stick, which weighs only around 200 grams. For sparring, many people use even lighter weight rattan sticks, around 140 grams. Add on top of this the fact that rattan is very flexible, and not nearly as hard as a good hardwood stick, and you can see why they don't break bones, and therefore are good for training (rather than actual use). I actually made a thread for discussion of this point in the FMA Discussion board.

#2 - There are a lot of very stupid stick fights, because people gear up with masks and hand protection, pick up extra light weight rattan sticks, and then proceed to ignore eachother's hits simply because they don't hurt badly enough. This is just a stupid way of sparring. If you wear protective gear and use extra light weight sticks in order not to hurt each other, that's great, but you should understand and respect the damage that a real weapon can do to an unarmored person.

You can very easily break hands, legs, heads, ribs, and collarbones with a hard wood stick and even half decent body mechanics. In fact, you can even do that with a rattan stick of average weight against targets such as the hands, head, and collarbone -- maybe also the knee. A solid blow to the head should generally be considered lethal, especially if using a hardwood.

2. That swords and sticks are the same
They're not really, though many of the principles can be applied in a similar manner, but even within the Filipino Martial Arts, if you compare predominantly stick fighting systems with predominantly blade oriented systems (Kali Ilustrisimo being an excellent example of a blade based art), they are very different. You do not need to generate nearly as much raw power with a blade, because, well, it's sharp, and it goes in the target very, very easily -- especially the tip. It doesn't take much to sever the tendons, or to effortlessly plunge the point into one's adversary. The same is true of Japanese sword arts. Bladed arts typically use smaller, and more efficient thrusts and cuts. Because large swings and chambered striking positions are not necessary to generate power, your weapon can spend a lot more time on the centerline, where it can both deflect incoming attacks, and attack or threaten your opponent.

You can't be nearly this efficient with a stick:

And, just so you know the chopping power of a blade:

As for two handed use of longer sticks, I would actually look into Jodo or Shinto Muso Ryu. Due to the sheer weight of a hardwood walking staff, and the use of two hands, you can be more efficient with this weapon, too, than you would with a typical stick.
Jodo is a simplified version of this. But, my impression is that the OP may not appreciate very formal Japanese arts, and Jodo isn't common outside of Japan anyway, so I might also recommend looking into HEMA (Historical European Martial Arts). Both Longsword and Staff systems exist in HEMA and may be closest to what the OP is looking for?
 
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Alan0354

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This thread is all over the place, but I want to challenge some assumptions:

1. That a single stick lacks power
This is simply not true, but you may have this impression because of a few factors:

#1 - In Kali, lightweight rattan sticks are used as training implements for safety and durability. For actual combat and duels, much heavier hardwood sticks and swords were used. A fighting weight sword or stick will be on average 500-700 grams -- a good two to three times heavier, and way, way harder than your typical rattan stick, which weighs only around 200 grams. For sparring, many people use even lighter weight rattan sticks, around 140 grams. Add on top of this the fact that rattan is very flexible, and not nearly as hard as a good hardwood stick, and you can see why they don't break bones, and therefore are good for training (rather than actual use). I actually made a thread for discussion of this point in the FMA Discussion board.

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Hi Argus

It's getting late, so I only address #1, I have to watch the video before I comment on the rest.

In short, two hands swing definitely hit harder. This is because one can use a heavier stick with two hands than with just one hand. I consider myself average strength, with single hand, about 14oz stick is the heaviest I can swing with good speed. I can swing a 20oz stick with one hand, but definitely can't get the velocity as with two hands. Also, I can feel the momentum of the heavy stick will pull me and hard to recover from the swing.With two hands, I can swing a 20oz stick with the same speed as 14oz with one hand. If you say in actual combat, people use 500 to 700gm, which is 16oz to 25oz, they got to be slowing down, no as excited to watch than with light stick. Of cause you can swing a 25oz stick/sword, unless the person is very strong, how slow will they swing?

The law of physics governs that the power or momentum of 20oz vs 14 oz is 20/14 = 1.43 times higher with a 20oz stick IF the velocity is the same. I can definitely feel the difference when hitting the heavy bag. Now, if one can swing 20oz stick at the same velocity as two hands, then yes, the power is the same. So by the fact the one can swing a heavier stick with the same velocity with both hands, two hands swinging definitely hits harder.

The second and to me is even more important. If you swing with one hand like Kali, lets say starting from above right shoulder swinging diagonally down towards the left side of the body, then continue to circle back up to the left shoulder to complete the full cycle of the swing. This is how typical Kali does. The circle is quite big. This is NOT an issue during a competition or match because you have a clear stage with nothing in the way. You can swing freely without worrying of hitting tables or chairs, you have a big open space. BUT in self defense when the space is not open with people and stuffs around, you swing a big circle with likely hit something and cause you to lose your stick. In real life, space can be confined like in the hallway or stairs, you really cannot do big circle swing.

This is where two hands swing is really superior. First, the stick is much more secure when holding with two hands. Second, with two hands, you can control the stick a lot better, you don't need to swing as big a circle as single hand and make it more compact thereby less chance of hitting stuff around and can work in a confined space like hallway or stairs.

With two hands, it's easier to do casting and pull back the stick after swing passed the focus point to make the circle even smaller. It is harder to do casting with one hand and pull back is even harder. That's the reason the circle swung by one hand has to be bigger.

I have been practicing one hand for 3 months and switched to two hands, it is easier to control the stick, what I described is my personal experience from almost 3 months of practicing with both hands. It is so much harder to control the stick with one hand than with two hands.
 
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Argus

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Hi Argus

It's getting late, so I only address #1, I have to watch the video before I comment on the rest.

In short, two hands swing definitely hit harder. This is because one can use a heavier stick with two hands than with just one hand. I consider myself average strength, with single hand, about 14oz stick is the heaviest I can swing with good speed. I can swing a 20oz stick with one hand, but definitely can't get the velocity as with two hands. Also, I can feel the momentum of the heavy stick will pull me and hard to recover from the swing.With two hands, I can swing a 20oz stick with the same speed as 14oz with one hand. If you say in actual combat, people use 500 to 700gm, which is 16oz to 25oz, they got to be slowing down, no as excited to watch than with light stick. Of cause you can swing a 25oz stick/sword, unless the person is very strong, how slow will they swing?

The law of physics governs that the power or momentum of 20oz vs 14 oz is 20/14 = 1.43 times higher with a 20oz stick IF the velocity is the same. I can definitely feel the difference when hitting the heavy bag. Now, if one can swing 20oz stick at the same velocity as two hands, then yes, the power is the same. So by the fact the one can swing a heavier stick with the same velocity with both hands, two hands swinging definitely hits harder.

The second and to me is even more important. If you swing with one hand like Kali, lets say starting from above right shoulder swinging diagonally down towards the left side of the body, then continue to circle back up to the left shoulder to complete the full cycle of the swing. This is how typical Kali does. The circle is quite big. This is NOT an issue during a competition or match because you have a clear stage with nothing in the way. You can swing freely without worrying of hitting tables or chairs, you have a big open space. BUT in self defense when the space is not open with people and stuffs around, you swing a big circle with likely hit something and cause you to lose your stick. In real life, space can be confined like in the hallway or stairs, you really cannot do big circle swing.

This is where two hands swing is really superior. First, the stick is much more secure when holding with two hands. Second, with two hands, you can control the stick a lot better, you don't need to swing as big a circle as single hand and make it more compact thereby less chance of hitting stuff around and can work in a confined space like hallway or stairs.

With two hands, it's easier to do casting and pull back the stick after swing passed the focus point to make the circle even smaller. It is harder to do casting with one hand and pull back is even harder. That's the reason the circle swung by one hand has to be bigger.

I have been practicing one hand for 3 months and switched to two hands, it is easier to control the stick, what I described is my personal experience from almost 3 months of practicing with both hands. It is so much harder to control the stick with one hand than with two hands.

I agree on most of your points, but I would add that, at least for me, it is the length of the weapon which most dictates whether using one or two hands is appropriate. Wielding a very short weapon with two hands is quite awkward and offers very little benefit, even limiting your maneuverability and power generation -- unless you just so happen to have use of a certain "bayonet" style techniques (which, btw, are on of the more practical ways of employing something like an umbrella, I feel, but getting off track here) whilst weilding longer weapons, such as a cane or walking stick, or something the length of a full sized bokuto, two hands becomes both more appropriate and controllable.

For the length of the cane that I think you are using, I agree that two hands is probably a better approach. I also agree with the advantage of being able to stop a strike on the centerline and not making a large circle. If you watch the Shinto Muso Ryu / Jodo video that I posted, you'll see that being done. I really love the way Shinto Muso Ryu makes use of centerline theory, in much the same way as Kali Ilustrisimo.
 
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It has just occured to me that the diffrent "styles" of staff in FMA, may be based on diffrent stick designs, there is one that is apparntly based upon the whipping motion of fishing rods (the sort without the reel, forgot their name). So it begs the question if that ones based on fishing poles made out of willow (or their equal) or something like that, and if another "style" is based on their equal or a Quaterstaff etc.


Also if its not been mentioned, FMA/Arnis/Kali/escrima is the general term, there are MANY diffrent form of combat in the filipines, like there are langauges. There is also Modern Sport Arnis, not to be confused with any other sort. The term FMA, should be treated as a general term for all the mrtial arts in the filipines, and maybe ones influcned by them and connected to them.

Although, given most european staff sytems are with hardwood, and their training would be just having people out of mesure with each other, as opposed to using soft wood sticks. Im open to correction, but i cant think of a european equal to Rattan for example, we arent blessed to ahve asoft wood that makes a decent training weapon.
 

jergar

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That's why I concentrate on using two hands swing to get back the speed. I tried rattan with two hands, it's not much faster even it's a lot lighter. Key is two hands. Yes, if I swing the Night Watchman with one hand, it's slower, not with two hands. This is not like half the weight and you double the speed.

I recorded the one hand rattan stick 3 months ago:

I recorded the two hand with Night Watchman one month and half ago:

I don't think there is a big difference in speed. I am slow, whether it's rattan one hand or the heavy cane with two hands. So be that with the limitation, I might as well go two hands with heavier cane!!



I am doing it quite differently now since I learn casting from Lamont Glass(Blindside) here. This is his video, it's really good:

With casting, it's a lot more compact, much better in tighter space. I am still practicing hard on casting, I'll make another video when I get better.
Hi Alan your strikes are good , you need to work on putting them to targets, like right swing across your body targets the hand the arm or side of opponents neck ,head, dont stand in front of your opponent step to the same side as your opponents strike as you strike this will add body weight to your strike, your going to trade a little speed for accuracy. Since your training solo youll have to visualize hitting the different targets. Hope this helps! Peace.
 

angelariz

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The length of the weapon and the range of the target will determine the type of grip. You can bunt, you can slash, you can poke, you can push with the ends. All of these things will be in different grips to some extent.
 
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Alan0354

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I agree on most of your points, but I would add that, at least for me, it is the length of the weapon which most dictates whether using one or two hands is appropriate. Wielding a very short weapon with two hands is quite awkward and offers very little benefit, even limiting your maneuverability and power generation -- unless you just so happen to have use of a certain "bayonet" style techniques (which, btw, are on of the more practical ways of employing something like an umbrella, I feel, but getting off track here) whilst weilding longer weapons, such as a cane or walking stick, or something the length of a full sized bokuto, two hands becomes both more appropriate and controllable.

For the length of the cane that I think you are using, I agree that two hands is probably a better approach. I also agree with the advantage of being able to stop a strike on the centerline and not making a large circle. If you watch the Shinto Muso Ryu / Jodo video that I posted, you'll see that being done. I really love the way Shinto Muso Ryu makes use of centerline theory, in much the same way as Kali Ilustrisimo.
I agree 100%. One of the reason I have so many sticks is because I need longer and longer sticks. As I get stronger, I increase the length of the stick. I am about to buy more new Night Watchman cane and cut it longer as it's getting easy now.

Two hands definitely not going to work for short stick, I have a few of those collapsible baton, they are 21" long, I try to practice at night where I don't want to make a scene, it just doesn't work at all. My cane is 30", longer than the Kali sticks(most 26" to max 28"). It makes a difference for that 2 extra inches. Even 26" stick feels funny swinging with 2 hands.

I have to watch the Lodo video. Just finish part of my cane exercise.

Thanks
 

angelariz

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I agree 100%. One of the reason I have so many sticks is because I need longer and longer sticks. As I get stronger, I increase the length of the stick. I am about to buy more new Night Watchman cane and cut it longer as it's getting easy now.

Two hands definitely not going to work for short stick, I have a few of those collapsible baton, they are 21" long, I try to practice at night where I don't want to make a scene, it just doesn't work at all. My cane is 30", longer than the Kali sticks(most 26" to max 28"). It makes a difference for that 2 extra inches. Even 26" stick feels funny swinging with 2 hands.

I have to watch the Lodo video. Just finish part of my cane exercise.

Thanks
I have had better results with a shorter weapon. The longer sticks are easier to grab. They might be a more powerful strike with a two hand swing. You should spar with sticks and enequal weapons to see the pros and cons as it applies to sticks, canes, walking sticks, canne de combat...etc

A lot of people have ideas that are turned upside down as soon as they log in a few hours sparing.
 
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Alan0354

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I have had better results with a shorter weapon. The longer sticks are easier to grab. They might be a more powerful strike with a two hand swing. You should spar with sticks and enequal weapons to see the pros and cons as it applies to sticks, canes, walking sticks, canne de combat...etc

A lot of people have ideas that are turned upside down as soon as they log in a few hours sparing.
That's something to think about. Problem is who am I going to spar with? I don't think there is a school that is open, also, two hands is not common to learn.

Hopefully 30" is kind of in the middle. I do not want a longer staff. Like I said, in real live situation, one doesn't have open space to swing around, usually the surrounding is cluttered and confined. I even been practicing holding the cane with two hands farther apart to shorten the front of the stick to hit object closer by than normal. This is another big advantage of two hands swinging, I can literally adjust the length of the stick on the fly. I don't think one hand swing can do that this easy.

I am right hand forward, so all I have to do is slide my right hand towards the front of the stick and keep my left hand where it is, I literally shorten the stick for striking.

Thanks
 
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Alan0354

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The length of the weapon and the range of the target will determine the type of grip. You can bunt, you can slash, you can poke, you can push with the ends. All of these things will be in different grips to some extent.
You know what, this morning I experiment with a lighter stick with two hands after reading all your posts, I want to see again how different is the power when striking the heavy bag. I use my 11oz rattan cane compare to the 20oz cane. Of cause there is some difference, BUT the rattan is NOT exactly a wimp, it still made a pretty nice sound and I can still feel the force. Maybe the speed is faster with the lighter cane even swinging with two hands.

The control is definitely better with the rattan cane and recovery time is definitely faster. I guess I have to fine a "sweet" weight of the cane. I took off the rubber foot that save 2/3oz, more importantly, it's at the tip where it has the biggest effect on the momentum and make it harder to recover from a swing. We'll see what happen.

I might even look for a super heavy rattan cane. It would be nice if I can find one that is 15oz when cut down to 30". I might even try the old Nylon cane that I cut down to 29" and drill a 3/8" hole that is 6" deep to reduce the weight. That one must be like 17oz only. Only problem is 29" is too short to use as a cane to walk, but I really don't need a cane :).
 

frank raud

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You cannot poke that hard with a cane or stick, it's not something you can rely on to stop the attacker. I tried a lot on the heavy bag, it just doesn't.
Why can't you poke that hard with a cane or stick? I know I can put a serious dent in a car door with a cane, and am sure I could bust ribs with a short stroke with a cane or stick. If anything, because you are concentrating all the power of the thrust into an area of less than 1", a poke should be at least as powerful as a swing.
 
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Alan0354

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Why can't you poke that hard with a cane or stick? I know I can put a serious dent in a car door with a cane, and am sure I could bust ribs with a short stroke with a cane or stick. If anything, because you are concentrating all the power of the thrust into an area of less than 1", a poke should be at least as powerful as a swing.
I don't know, it just is. This is a video of me hitting the heavy bags, the poking is not as hard:


Maybe you can give me some pointers how to poke hard.
 

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I don't know, it just is. This is a video of me hitting the heavy bags, the poking is not as hard:


Maybe you can give me some pointers how to poke hard.

It might not feel as hard as a swing but remember you are concentrating a lot of force into a small area. I have broken bones with a punyo (butt of the stick) strike that I don't even remember throwing, and that was at short range without a big windup. Two handed is going to hit hard, when practicing spear work you have to be careful on your thrusts to not to hit too hard, the cane is no different, just shorter.

Also you need to put more torso rotation into your thrusts, you are mostly arm thrusting right now.
 

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Damage is proportional to kinetic energy (1/2 mass x squared speed). So, speed is more effective killer than mass. I believe that, using a rattan cane, speed will be higher, especially along a short trajectory. Just train speed and you will be fine with any canes.
 

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I don't know, it just is. This is a video of me hitting the heavy bags, the poking is not as hard:

Maybe you can give me some pointers how to poke hard.
You're using a subjective measurement of impact force, which isn't very accurate. And you're forgetting that the poke concentrates the impact into a fraction of the area. Go poke a bag with your finger. Now poke it with an ice pick. See the difference?
 

Flying Crane

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It might not feel as hard as a swing but remember you are concentrating a lot of force into a small area. I have broken bones with a punyo (butt of the stick) strike that I don't even remember throwing, and that was at short range without a big windup. Two handed is going to hit hard, when practicing spear work you have to be careful on your thrusts to not to hit too hard, the cane is no different, just shorter.

Also you need to put more torso rotation into your thrusts, you are mostly arm thrusting right now.
Not just on the thrusts, but with the swings as well. Best if it comes from the feet. What little rotation I see is beginning at the shoulders, which means not much actually happening there. Its all arms.
 
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Alan0354

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Yeh, I need to put more torso into the poke, I just use my hands only.
 
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Alan0354

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Damage is proportional to kinetic energy (1/2 mass x squared speed). So, speed is more effective killer than mass. I believe that, using a rattan cane, speed will be higher, especially along a short trajectory. Just train speed and you will be fine with any canes.
Yes, I notice I need shorter trajectory for rattan cane. The heavy cane definitely still hit harder, but it take more winding up and longer to slow down after the hit. The rattan just has a faster recovery time and attack time. Question is where is the balance.

I did everything to lighten the heavy stick. Now they weight in at 18oz. It helps a little. My issue is Rattan is way too light. The place that sells thick rattan canes are out of stock. Apparently not too many people want heavy rattan cane or sticks. I want rattan canes that is at least 13oz after cutting down to 30". That means the rattan has to be at least 1 1/8 inch diameter or bigger AND with skin. That's huge for rattan.

Those rattan canes that are available on ebay are like 7/8" thick 8 to 9 oz. That's just not good enough.
 
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