How to minimize cane flying off the hand when misses the target?

Alan0354

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Hi

I am practicing stick fight with a cane for self defense, when I hit the heavy bag, when I miss the bag, the cane flew off from my hands even I am using 2 hands like Katana. What do people do to avoid this?

In fighting, opponent do back off and cause you to miss, I cannot afford to have the cane flies off. Short of tying a string to my wrist, what can I practice to hold onto the cane better?

Thanks
 

Blindside

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Sounds like you are overly relaxed in your grip, but it can happen to anyone, I have done it and I watched a really good HEMA guy throw away a single stick on a missed swing last weekend. It is proper to relax your grip when not expecting contact, it will speed up your strikes and power. This is one thing where sparring can help because you get used to taking impact at unexpected times rather than just when hitting a pell. I know that isn't your goal or part of your training regime, but it is an introduction of the chaos of a fight.
 
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Alan0354

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Thanks for the reply, I am starting to practice gripping tighter the moment of contact, but still it doesn't seems to help. I am practicing to barely reaching the bag to increase the chance of missing the bag to try to get use to the misses.

What do you think about pulling back after hitting instead follow through to swing the whole arc? In punching, we don't go through all the way, we pull the punch back after penetrating the bag enough( like converging 3" into the bag). I tried this, I won't be able to hit as hard.

This got to be a common problem even in sword fight and other weapons like axe etc. Don't tell me in real life, people lose their weapon all the time!!!

Thanks
 

Blindside

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Thanks for the reply, I am starting to practice gripping tighter the moment of contact, but still it doesn't seems to help. I am practicing to barely reaching the bag to increase the chance of missing the bag to try to get use to the misses.

What do you think about pulling back after hitting instead follow through to swing the whole arc? In punching, we don't go through all the way, we pull the punch back after penetrating the bag enough( like converging 3" into the bag). I tried this, I won't be able to hit as hard.

This got to be a common problem even in sword fight and other weapons like axe etc. Don't tell me in real life, people lose their weapon all the time!!!

Thanks
They don't, just don't get overly relaxed in the grip. But I will say that it isn't unusual for me to disarm people by striking someone at the base of their sword/stick at an unexpected time or if their hand is at a bad angle.
 
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Alan0354

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They don't, just don't get overly relaxed in the grip. But I will say that it isn't unusual for me to disarm people by striking someone at the base of their sword/stick at an unexpected time or if their hand is at a bad angle.
I just bought some 1/8" black rope, going to put a loop to loop my hand through.

It is a dilemma, I think it will help to have a lighter stick so momentum won't pull the stick out of the hand, but then you reduce the stopping power. I don't think I have weak hands, I do hand exercise. I am 180lbs, I can do pull up no problem. In the gym, I did pull down up to 220lbs and I don't need any help on gripping with bare hands. So I don't think I have a weak grip.

One more question. My cane is on the heavy side. Just the cane alone is 19oz. The one I am using for hitting the kicking bag has a big ball like cushion at the tip that must weight 3oz or little over. So the momentum from swinging is higher. Would that take it over the edge and pull the cane out of my hands? This is the picture of the canes, #1 is with the cushion:
3 practicing stick.jpg


The one with the yellow cushion is definitely hard to swing in air and I can feel it's pulling me. The others don't have this problem.
 

Blindside

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Professional baseball players throw their bats away completely accidentally and that is a less chaotic situation than any fight.

Pro tennis players lose their rackets.

All of these guys are stronger than you and they are using tools both lighter and heavier than yours. I am not going to say don't worry about it, but it happens. For a more personal example, here is video of me both knocking a stick out of someone's hands (4:05), knocking a knife out (7:38), and me kind of randomly losing my own stick just by trying to hit the other guy (6:17). Stuff happens.
 
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Alan0354

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I wish I can fight like you!!! Ha ha, I hope I can be 30 years younger also!!!

I ordered the 1/8" black rope and going to try making a loop around my wrist. At least I can get it back quickly.

You were quick getting back the stick after you lost it!!!


Another important thing, your matches are fought in big open space, there's nothing in the way and nothing that you might hit accidentally. For me, it's self defense, it might be in a restaurant with tables and chairs. I practice single hand strike also with a 13oz cane, I lost the cane twice from hitting the chair accidentally. That, my hand was relax because I did not expect to hit anything. The cane went flying!!!
 

CB Jones

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Hi

I am practicing stick fight with a cane for self defense, when I hit the heavy bag, when I miss the bag, the cane flew off from my hands even I am using 2 hands like Katana. What do people do to avoid this?

In fighting, opponent do back off and cause you to miss, I cannot afford to have the cane flies off. Short of tying a string to my wrist, what can I practice to hold onto the cane better?

Thanks

Lizard Skin bat grip tape maybe?
 

Blindside

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The SCA require a lanyard for their single hand weapons, you might try something like this:
 

Tony Dismukes

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Dropping a stick while sparring is something that can happen, due to the chaotic nature of a fight. You really shouldn’t be dropping your stick during solo practice hitting the heavy bag or air. With time and repetition you should learn the subtle adjustments to your grip which are necessary to avoid this happening. (Essentially, your grip will tighten up at the moment of impact or at the moment of maximum velocity if you aren’t making contact, then relax just enough to move the stick freely at other times.)

In your other thread I recommended that you use a sword grip (hands somewhat apart) rather than a baseball grip (hands together) for your two handed swings. That should make it significantly easier to maintain control of the stick and not let go of it.
 
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Alan0354

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Dropping a stick while sparring is something that can happen, due to the chaotic nature of a fight. You really shouldn’t be dropping your stick during solo practice hitting the heavy bag or air. With time and repetition you should learn the subtle adjustments to your grip which are necessary to avoid this happening. (Essentially, your grip will tighten up at the moment of impact or at the moment of maximum velocity if you aren’t making contact, then relax just enough to move the stick freely at other times.)

In your other thread I recommended that you use a sword grip (hands somewhat apart) rather than a baseball grip (hands together) for your two handed swings. That should make it significantly easier to maintain control of the stick and not let go of it.
Thanks for the reply.

I never drop the stick hitting air or hitting bag, I dropped the stick when I missed the bag and when I accidentally hit the furniture when swinging in the air where I hit unexpectedly. Yes, I tighten the grip at the peak of the swing anticipating to hit something. I drop the stick hitting the furniture because I wasn't expect to hit anything at that moment.

In competition, you have a wide clear unobstructed area, it's not really a problem hitting things around, and beside, the worst it can happen when dropping the stick is losing the match. In self defense, like in restaurant, you have chairs and tables all over, it is likely to hit something accidentally. Dropping a stick in self defense has a much higher consequence. That's what is scary for me.

I am practicing hitting the bag with the very tip at the maximum of reach, so I barely touch the bag in the swing. 30% of the time, I miss. I am trying to get use to missing the target and hold onto the stick. Hopefully I can train to take a miss and not losing the stick. I don't know how to create a situation I can accidentally hit the furniture without destroying the furniture!!!

I ordered some black rope and see whether I can make a loop around my left hand so even if the cane flies, it won't fly away and I can get it back fast.

Yes, I swing with my two hands like an inch or so apart, not together anymore to get better control now, still the cane can fly as described above.

Thanks
 

wab25

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When practicing shooting a handgun, one of the things you can do is to have a friend load a dummy round into the magazine, at an unknown position. Then when you shoot the rounds, when you shoot the dummy, you get to see what you are doing in expectation of the recoil. Some people compensate to early and push the gun off target and can't see it, because of the recoil. An unexpected dummy round, will show you what you are doing in anticipation.

I wonder if you are swinging too hard, expecting to hit the bag. When you missed, you are throwing yourself off balance and out of position. When we do Bo practice, sensei will stand in front of you, sometimes he will block your strike with his Bo, sometimes he won't, he keeps you guessing. The expectation is that when he blocks, it has full power and when he doesn't, you maintain full structure and balance and don't over extend your strike.

Also, I would think about the cord tying the cane to your wrist. If you are talking about a self defense situation, and the other guy suddenly rips the cane out of your hands, he now has you by the wrist. One of the tactics you can use with a hanbo, is to get the other guy focused on the hanbo so much that he really tries to get it, then you let him have it, but attack him with an elbow or knee as he takes the hanbo. When you get into a wrestling match over the hanbo, sometimes its better to suddenly let go, if you can put an elbow to his temple, especially if the release, releases him into the strike. Just think about whether you want to get dragged around by your cane, should the other guy get a hold of it and rips it out of your hands.
 
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Alan0354

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When practicing shooting a handgun, one of the things you can do is to have a friend load a dummy round into the magazine, at an unknown position. Then when you shoot the rounds, when you shoot the dummy, you get to see what you are doing in expectation of the recoil. Some people compensate to early and push the gun off target and can't see it, because of the recoil. An unexpected dummy round, will show you what you are doing in anticipation.

I wonder if you are swinging too hard, expecting to hit the bag. When you missed, you are throwing yourself off balance and out of position. When we do Bo practice, sensei will stand in front of you, sometimes he will block your strike with his Bo, sometimes he won't, he keeps you guessing. The expectation is that when he blocks, it has full power and when he doesn't, you maintain full structure and balance and don't over extend your strike.

Also, I would think about the cord tying the cane to your wrist. If you are talking about a self defense situation, and the other guy suddenly rips the cane out of your hands, he now has you by the wrist. One of the tactics you can use with a hanbo, is to get the other guy focused on the hanbo so much that he really tries to get it, then you let him have it, but attack him with an elbow or knee as he takes the hanbo. When you get into a wrestling match over the hanbo, sometimes its better to suddenly let go, if you can put an elbow to his temple, especially if the release, releases him into the strike. Just think about whether you want to get dragged around by your cane, should the other guy get a hold of it and rips it out of your hands.
What is a hanbo?

It is something to think about the guy might drag me around by the cord!!! For now, it might not be a problem, I am still doing weight training and I weight 178lbs. I don't think I am that easy to be drag around yet. But this is a real concern if I am a few more years older and weaker. Right now, I can still do 20 pushup wearing a 60lbs weighted jacket and bicep curl 10 raps of 40lbs dumb bell.

I used to do a lot of shooting, that's a good idea for revolver, too bad it won't work for semi-auto. You have to clear the dummy rounds. It's doable. I do have some dummy 9mm.

Right now, I am practicing hitting the bag by the tip of the cane at maximum reach. I missed the bag like 30% of the time and swing through. It's hard to know which one I will miss, so it's kind of like you said about the dummy rounds in the gun.

The worst is in self defense situation in say restaurant where there are chairs and tables, you can accidentally hit one of those where you don't expect and lose the cane. You only squeeze the cane when you anticipate to hit, the hand is relax when you accidentally hit the other objects around where you don't expect.

It's no win, choosing between losing the cane or being dragged!!! I used to practice hitting the head, now I am more concentrating on hitting the legs and poking the tummy. It's much harder for the guy to grab the cane when I hit low. Also, because I use two hands, I use a 20oz heavy cane, I don't necessary want to kill the guy by hitting his head. Breaking the leg is effective also.( I think the cane being 20oz has something to do with it flying off my hands due to momentum. Particularly the one I use to hit the heavy has a big bulb at the tip, another over 3ozs of foam and tape that drag the cane out of my hand if I miss.)
 
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Alan0354

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Anyone actually pull back the stick after hitting the target? that means NOT swinging through the whole circle, just stop after swinging a little pass the hitting point of the target and pull back. All the instruction videos I saw all swing through the whole circle.

Reason I ask is because for punching, you do NOT punch and keep going pass the target point. You go like 3in beyond the target point and you pull back the punch to avoid throwing yourself out of balance. Why can't we do that on a stick/cane? With two hands swinging, it's not hard to stop the cane and not follow through the whole cycle.

This should help a lot not to have the cane flies!!
 
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Alan0354

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I tried a little both on kicking bag and air, I don't even have to pull back, just don't try to swing through the whole cycle. Like when I anticipate the point of hitting, swing hard to that point and then relax right after that, the stick is not going to be swings through as hard. Meaning if I miss, there will be less momentum carry the stick through the circle that can pull the stick out of the hands.

Anyone can comment on this. ALL the videos I saw talked about swinging through the whole circle to reach the shoulder on the other side.
 

Blindside

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Anyone can comment on this. ALL the videos I saw talked about swinging through the whole circle to reach the shoulder on the other side.
We would call that a "broken strike" meaning you hit and retract back to a high position. It will cost you power but is less dedicated. Try "casting" a little bit more when you strike if you want to do this, it will give you a bit of range.
 
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Alan0354

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We would call that a "broken strike" meaning you hit and retract back to a high position. It will cost you power but is less dedicated. Try "casting" a little bit more when you strike if you want to do this, it will give you a bit of range.
What is casting?

Thanks
 

isshinryuronin

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Striking with a cane/stick/hanbo is different than cutting with a (Samurai) sword. Striking contact is usually perpendicular to the target, relying on blunt force penetration to cause damage; heavy broadswords as well, I think. To put it in blade terms - chopping. Cutting contact is more parallel, like slicing, and requires blade sharpness to do the work. So the two are apples and oranges.

What do you think about pulling back after hitting instead follow through to swing the whole arc? In punching, we don't go through all the way, we pull the punch back after penetrating the bag enough( like converging 3" into the bag). I tried this, I won't be able to hit as hard.
If you are punching the bag hard and stopping 3" in, you are probably locking your body to stop the punch at that point (kime/chinkuchi.) Why not try the same thing with your cane? If you're not getting power in the strike, you may be pulling it back after contact but leaving out the locking at the expected penetration point before you pull back. If you miss the target, instead of a wild follow thru, like the thrown bat mentioned earlier, using kime should allow you to keep control, just as if you hit the target.

The opposite method can be seen in kali/escrima where you relax the wrist/grip after contact, flow thru into a circular motion, redirecting the power (even in a missed strike) into a second strike. This should also let you keep control of the momentum.

Whether you hit or miss, the technique should pretty much look the same.
 
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Alan0354

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So I was practicing wrong before!!! I watched quite a bit of youtube, nobody talked about Kime/Chinkuchi. That concentrate of a point and relax after that to avoid over commit and throw off balance. Every single video showed following through the strike swinging from right shoulder all the way circling to the left shoulder. So I have been swinging all the way even thought I tighten at the target point more. It ONLY because I learned from punching and thinking if I stop right after the target, I won't over swing and risk losing the stick if I miss.


What do you guys think about I practice "tapping" the heavy bag when I hit the bag? That is like first practice punching, just tap the bag lightly, not trying to punch hard. That helped me in concentrate the punch like 3" into the bag and relax and pull back. Then after a few days, slowly increase the power of the "tapping".

Let me know,

Thanks
 
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Alan0354

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I finally got all the parts I needed from Amazon today to make the rope around my hand. These are the pictures. I think it does NOT attract any attention, looks natural.

1) This is picture just hanging on the edge of table.
Cane tie 1.jpg





2) This is how it looks when I walk around. You barely notice I have the rope.
Cane tie 2.jpg



3) This is when I hold the cane to swing. The rope is NOT around my wrist.
Cane tie 3.jpg



Point is I don't want to draw attention. Also, if the guy grab my cane and tug it, I can always let it go because the rope is NOT around my wrist here.
 
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