Wing Woo Gar71 32
Grandmaster
And restomp the groin.
Question on defense against grappling in street fight
- Thread starter Alan0354
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_Simon_136 167
Grandmaster
Still got 14 more pages to go guys. Get to it.This'll eeeasily push out to a 17 page thread.
Minimum.
- Thread starter
- #43
Nobody can counter my assertion that the rules of MMA fightings favoring grappling. You cannot hit the back of the head, neck. Of cause you cannot eyes gouging and biting. These are are most effective defense against grappling in REAL LIFE self defense.
TRUTH HURTS. YOU JUST HAVE TO PUT YOUR MIND SET IN SELF DEFENSE TO FIRST LOOK FOR THE EYES, THEN THE BACK OF THE HEAD. IT'S NEW CONCEPT, BUT IT WORKS AGAINST GRAPPLER IN REAL LIFE SELF DEFENSE.
drop bear136 11
Sr. Grandmaster
You would have to prove your methods of defending grappling is better.
Otherwise if the rules of MMA favour grappling. Why are there strikers?
And how do they win?
- Thread starter
- #45
You watch this video posted by Marvin 8 in page 2 here?
I did not invent this, just common sense. watch the video, he explain why eye gouging works against grapplers. You don't know you cannot strike behind the head or neck in MMA fight?
Same Idea as the video that grapplers have to come very close to you to grab you and you can easily slap on the back of their heads. When they go low to grab your legs, their heads are completely vulnerable in front of you to elbow downwards on the back of their heads.
You ever stop and think? It would be a completely different ballgame if they just allow to hit the back of the head and neck.
That's the problem with MA, they pass from generation to generation down and they confined to the teaching of people long time ago. Look at the Chinese MA get KILLED in MMA and they still refuse to change and still get their butt kicked after 30 years in MMA. You challenge them, they tell you to demonstrate to them against their experts. If you cannot win, they just say you are wrong. They don't think.
Learn to be scientific. Use common sense.
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- #46
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drop bear136 11
Sr. Grandmaster
But they can also do that to you.
So now this grappler can clinch up. Poke your eye, slap you on the back of your head and even twist your balls (that double leg becomes a lot more dangerous)
And you will have a much harder time of staying standing because of that.
skribs136 156
Grandmaster
While this is true, in my experience people tend to hyper-focus on what they've trained. Especially when you factor in a lot of people only consider those techniques to be effective.
For example, there's been threads saying there's no evidence that eye gouges can effectively stop a fight. Then when presented with evidence of eye pokes in UFC (where the receiver immediately collapses and loses all guard and sense of defense), the excuse is, "The ref stopped the fight, we don't know what would've happened on the street."
99% of TKD students aren't thinking about their leg getting grabbed and swept during a kick in sparring. 99% of boxers aren't thinking, "what if they knee strike me?" while practicing head movement. 99% of BJJ folks aren't thinking, "what about ground-and-pound?" while under mount. Well...maybe more like 70%, because a lot of them take MMA. Most folks who are training for a sport are focused on the game within that sport, either because A) it's what's most relevant to their training, or B) because it's what they consider to be the most effective set of techniques because its what the art focuses on.
So yes, the trained grappler could eye gouge you, but I think is less likely to, because that's simply not what they're trained to do. I think you're more likely to get eye-gouged by someone without the grappling training because Terry Silver saying, "if a man can't see, he can't fight" is the closest thing they've had to training.
drop bear136 11
Sr. Grandmaster
Exept I know people who have taken fingers to the eye.
Side note. If we are discussing that the rules of MMA favour grappling.
Then we can assume the grappler is aware of the rule changes. If we changed them.
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Wing Woo Gar71 32
Grandmaster
Is it because I said restomp the groin? I realize restomping is just mean and is maybe going too farā¦
Wing Woo Gar71 32
Grandmaster
Donāt forget the oil check, that will certainly be a game changer.
Wing Woo Gar71 32
Grandmaster
ā¦and head butts, nose bites, groin kicks, ear grabs, small joint manipulations etc all lend themselves to a skilled grappler skill set, and a shorter career.
- Moderator
- #53
I'll give it a shot. I think I have a reasonable claim to both expertise and neutrality on the topic. I'm an experienced instructor in both grappling and striking arts. I train with MMA fighters, but my personal martial arts practice is primarily focused on self-defense. I do train "street" techniques which are banned in MMA, such as eye gouges. And I've been following the development of MMA over the last 30 years or so.
In my judgment, the modern unified MMA ruleset (the most commonly used rules), actually give a slight advantage to striking over grappling. This is not surprising, because the people who run MMA promotions are trying to make money and the majority of casual MMA fans prefer to see striking because they don't understand the intricacies of grappling.
Rules which favor strikers
- Resets. If the reg judges that there is not enough activity in a clinch or on the ground, the fight is reset standing and at striking distance. However if there is inactivity at striking range, the ref doesn't reset the match in a clinch or on the ground.
- Rounds. If a round ends with the fighters on the ground, the next round always starts standing, meaning that a striker who is losing in grappling gets a free escape to their feet if they can survive to the bell.
- MMA gloves make it significantly harder to finish chokes.
- MMA gloves and hand wraps allow strikers to punch much harder without breaking their hands. (Before the introduction of MMA gloves, broken hands from punching were a regular occurrence.
- Clothing. MMA fighters wear just shorts (for men) or shorts + sports bra (for women) and grabbing clothes is not allowed. If fighters wore street clothes and grabbing them was allowable, then grapplers would have a much larger toolbox of throws, controls, and submissions to use.
- Ban on eye gouges. This actually favors strikers. In a battle of eye gouges, the advantage goes to the better grappler. I do train eye gouges, and the methods for applying and defending against them are all built on grappling fundamentals.
- Eye pokes. For the purpose of this list, I'm going to distinguish between eye pokes (hitting the eyes with extended fingers at punching range) and eye gouges (scooping of the eyes at close range with control of the head to prevent escape). Both are illegal under normal MMA rules. However, fighters who are willing to go that route know that they can often get away with a no-penalty warning for their first "accidental" eye poke at distance (just "forgot to keep their fingers curled in"). In contrast, there is no free warning or interpretation of an "accident" if a fighter were to apply a proper grappling-based eye gouge at close range.
- Fighting surface. The floor of the octagon has enough padding that fighters rarely get knocked out by a takedown. If they were fighting on a concrete floor, then big takedowns and throws would have a much higher chance of causing knockouts or serious injuries.
- Ban on takedowns that spike the opponent on their head. This rule was probably the result of the match between Frank Shamrock and Igor Zinoviev, where Shamrock ended Zinoviev's career by picking him up and driving him headfirst into the mat.
- I'm going to include the ban on strikes to the back of the neck here, but it's not as one-sided as you seem to think. The main effective anti-grappling use of these strikes is against a certain style of wrestling against the cage where the fighter is leaning low using their spine like a spear to pin their opponent against the cage wall while they try to get control of the legs for a takedown. This approach does leave the back of the neck potentially exposed and if strikes to the back of the neck were allowed, then this style of takedown would become much less common. On the other hand, there are lots of styles of takedown which do not offer this vulnerability. And in any case, effectively using such strikes against a takedown attempt generally requires sufficient grappling skill to first stop the immediate takedown. Watch the early years of MMA fights, where the rule didn't exist, and see if you can find any takedowns stopped by strikes to the back of the head. Another point to consider - strikes to the back of the neck and head can be advantageous to grapplers as well. If you're winning the grappling on the ground and have your opponent's back but can't finish the choke, strikes to the back of the head and neck could be an alternative path to victory if they were allowed.
Why not use the tools you already have?
In boxing, there are basic strategies for the tall guy and for the short guy. The short guy wants to get inside while the tall guy wants to keep distance. The tall guy gets in trouble, when he tries the throw one big hard shot, the short guy ducks under, gets inside and works him from the clinch. What the tall boxer wants to do, is to maintain distance using jabs and footwork. They use these to set up those hard shots... but those do not come unless they are set up.
When a striker goes against a grappler.... the striker needs to assume the strategy of the tall boxer. Maintain distance, use jabs and footwork to maintain that distance. Do not lunge in with the hard over hand KO punch. The only difference is the striker has to change levels with the grappler. Maintain distance, when the grappler changes levels, change levels with him and throw the jab, then step off at an angle. Set him up for the bigger shots.
In boxing, there are basic strategies for the tall guy and for the short guy. The short guy wants to get inside while the tall guy wants to keep distance. The tall guy gets in trouble, when he tries the throw one big hard shot, the short guy ducks under, gets inside and works him from the clinch. What the tall boxer wants to do, is to maintain distance using jabs and footwork. They use these to set up those hard shots... but those do not come unless they are set up.
When a striker goes against a grappler.... the striker needs to assume the strategy of the tall boxer. Maintain distance, use jabs and footwork to maintain that distance. Do not lunge in with the hard over hand KO punch. The only difference is the striker has to change levels with the grappler. Maintain distance, when the grappler changes levels, change levels with him and throw the jab, then step off at an angle. Set him up for the bigger shots.
windwalker099136 167
Master of Arts
"Since before his legendary third fight with Frazier, Muhammad Ali had been showing an interest in martial arts outside of boxing, even going so far as to train extensively with Jhoon Rhee, nowadays considered the grandfather of American TKD.
It made sense, Ali had done all he could to prove that he was, after all, the greatest of all time in his own sport. Now he looked to explore other styles of fighting, and beyond that, he looked to find out just how well boxing stacked up against these other styles. And so, Ali arranged for a mixed style match against a prominent Japanese wrestler by the name of Antonio Inoki, who Ali promptly nicknamed the Pelican."
- Thread starter
- #56
I don't think you comprehend what I try to say. You watch the video I posted a few times? It explain why eyes gauging doesn't work well in striking fights but very well against grapplers? This is the same as hitting the back of the head and neck.
You show a picture the grappler already picked up the opponent. How about before that when he shoot in, there are a few seconds his head is completely open to attack before he can pick up the opponent.
Think in a scientific way and logical way instead of getting stuck in one particular style.
Forget eyes gauging in MMA, that's very dangerous. WHY THEY NOT ALLOW STRIKING ON THE BACK OF THE HEAD AND NECK? BECAUSE IT WORK, DOING A LOT OF DAMAGE. Imagine when the grappler shoot in, there is plenty of time to strike on the back of the head.
Sorry to keep asking, YOU EVEN STOP AND THINK?
Don't challenge people to prove their point using your professional fighter. I am sure you can have someone kick my butt with one hand tie to his back because I am over 70. Talk about the opponent that is at the same level in the MMA fight. That little advantage of allowing to strike on the back of the head and neck WILL CHANGE THE COMPLETE DYNAMICS OF THE FIGHT.
STOP AND THINK.
Prince_Alarming74 10
Senior Master
Oh dear
- Thread starter
- #58
There are so many STUPID techniques in the TMA, things that doesn't work but give them a unique style and people in the older days stupidly learn and take is like bible.
I practice a few years in kick boxing before MMA days, I learn a few months in Judo and wing chung. In the 90s, I spent a few years in practicing iron palm hitting steel ball bearings. Even the instructor said I was doing well. IT IS COMPLETELY USELESS. Years of practicing only gave me carpal tunnels on both hands and had to have surgery. I DID NOT HIT ANY HARDER WITH IRON PALM. THIS IS FROM REAL EXPERIENCE. I LEARN ALL ABOUT USING HIPS, SHOULDERS AND ALL TO STRIKE. I can assure you if you do the same downward strike like iron palm BUT HOLD A FIST AS HAMMER FIST STRIKING DOWN, YOU HIT A LOT HARDER AND DO MORE DAMAGE. But guess what happens, NOBODY USE HAMMER FIST IN THEIR STYLE. IT DOESN'T LOOK GOOD, MORE LIKE WOMEN'S PUNCH!!!! KNIFE HAND CHOPPING OR IRON PALM JUST LOOK A LOT BETTER. BUT BOTH ARE QUITE USELESS.
I would use hammer fist striking down on the back of the neck of a grappler rather than iron palm or knife hand. To me that is how stupid the TMA are, for the looks. THIS IS FROM YEARS OF PERSONAL PRACTICE ON IRON PALM. WHAT A JOKE.
drop bear136 11
Sr. Grandmaster
Works well in grappling.
drop bear136 11
Sr. Grandmaster
You say your anti grappling techiques are going to be better from prison rules. But his grappling techniques are also going to be better from prison rules.
So when he shoots in. He could grab your nuts. Making your ability to downward elbow a lot harder.
All the arguments you make for that downward elbow. Now get made for that takedown.
